Author Topic: Trying New Starter with CY and Molasses  (Read 2722 times)

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Offline norma427

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Trying New Starter with CY and Molasses
« on: December 22, 2011, 09:17:48 AM »
I didnít want to take Craigís thread about Fresh Yeast at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,16775.0.html too far off-topic, so I am starting this thread.  Chau mentioned at Reply 19 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,16775.msg164473.html#msg164473 that he thought a starter could be made out of cake yeast.  I have no doubts about what Chau posted.

I am trying to start a starter with frozen Red Star cake yeast, KASL, water, and molasses.  Last evening I mixed 20 grams of KASL, 20 grams of spring water, 2 grams of Red Star cake yeast, and 2 grams of molasses.  So far this is how my experiment looks early this morning.  I have no idea how if this starter will take off or if it would be potent enough to use as a starter.  What I want to see if the cake yeast flavor would contribute anything to the final pizza dough flavor. 

It has been posted many times on the forum that cake yeast, IDY, and ADY are interchangeable, but I am more an experimenter, so I have to see for myself.  I have posted I thought that Red Star cake yeast when mixed with water does smell like sourdough.

Norma
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Trying New Starter with CY and Molasses
« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2011, 10:06:39 AM »
Norma, it looks alive and happy.  You can use molasses if you want but it's not necessary.  You can treat it like any starter now.  Just feed it and maintain it per your normal routine and the yeast will propagate itself as any other strain of yeast would.

I would feed it now with 50gm of water and flour each.  Your new starter is probably starving.  That's not much food and water that you gave it initially for 2gm of CY.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2011, 10:11:20 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying New Starter with CY and Molasses
« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2011, 10:22:52 AM »
Norma, it looks alive and happy.  You can use molasses if you want but it's not necessary.  You can treat it like any starter now.  Just feed it and maintain it per your normal routine and the yeast will propagate itself as any other strain of yeast would.

I would feed it now with 50gm of water and flour each.  Your new starter is probably starving.  That's not much food and water that you gave it initially for 2gm of CY.

Chau,

Thanks for saying the starter looks happy and alive!  I just wanted to try molasses to see what happens.  The starter does have a slight molasses smell, which I like.  Thanks also for your tip on how much to feed it.  I know the starter is probably starving now.  :( I just didnít want to start out with much flour because my cake yeast was frozen.

Thanks for your help!  ;D

Norma
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Trying New Starter with CY and Molasses
« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2011, 10:36:09 AM »
Norma, will you continue to add molasses to the feeding regimen?  If you want to see if it's possible if another strain of yeast will take over or not, which I highly doubt but never the less it would be nice to test for, you may want to not add any more molasses.   It could mask other flavors that could be contributed by another strain that could potentially develop in your CY starter.  

Also if you plan on or interested in doing a side by side comparison of pizzas using your new CY starter versus just fresh (or thawed) CY, the molasses will have to somehow be accounted for and also added to the regular CY formula.  

If you like the smell of molasses, perhaps you can just keep an open jar on the counter where you can just smell it from time to time as you work.  ;D. Norma, I'm just kidding a bit with you here.

For all your other starters and as you have time, can you tell me how often you use them, your usual routine for maintaining them, if you refrigerate them or just keep them at room temps, how long it typically takes for them to become active after feedings, etc?  

Chau

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Trying New Starter with CY and Molasses
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2011, 10:54:48 AM »
Norma, from Craig's thread, you had asked me if I had posted about my CY starter before.  I did mention it in the following thread but chose to not update that thread.

Reply 43. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12824.40.html

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying New Starter with CY and Molasses
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2011, 11:05:03 AM »
Norma, will you continue to add molasses to the feeding regimen?  If you want to see if it's possible if another strain of yeast will take over or not, which I highly doubt but never the less it would be nice to test for, you may want to not add any more molasses.   It could mask other flavors that could be contributed by another strain that could potentially develop in your CY starter.  

Also if you plan on or interested in doing a side by side comparison of pizzas using your new CY starter versus just fresh (or thawed) CY, the molasses will have to somehow be accounted for and also added to the regular CY formula.  

If you like the smell of molasses, perhaps you can just keep an open jar on the counter where you can just smell it from time to time as you work.  ;D. Norma, I'm just kidding a bit with you here.

For all your other starters and as you have time, can you tell me how often you use them, your usual routine for maintaining them, if you refrigerate them or just keep them at room temps, how long it typically takes for them to become active after feedings, etc?  

Chau


Chau,

I did just feed the CY starter with another 2 grams of molasses, but am not sure if I am going to keep feeding it molasses.  I will wait and see how it behaves or doesnít.  I did take your advice to feed it 50 grams of KASL.  I could understand that the molasses might mask other flavors.  From the experiments I did a long time ago with making natural starters and with different kinds of flours, all those starters were different in some way.

I am going to the supermarket either today or tomorrow and see if they have anymore of the Red Star CY.  If they do, I will experiment with using fresh CY, not frozen and leave the molasses out of the starter.

The idea to keep the molasses on the counter to just smell it had me chuckling!   :-DI have found I like molasses in dough a lot more since I have been experimenting on the MM thread. 

For my natural and Ischia starters I have started if you are interested in reading about them, these are the links.  It might take you awhile to go over all of them if you are interested.  I can link to where I tried those starters too, but will wait and see if you really want to go into all the bother of reading them.  I also used the fresh wheat starter, the Milk Kefir starter, and wadaveís sour milk starter. I wouldnít want you to get brain overload from all my posts.  :-D

Natural Starters.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10008.0.html

And

Ischia and Camaldoli Starters

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11578.0.html

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying New Starter with CY and Molasses
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2011, 11:07:00 AM »
Norma, from Craig's thread, you had asked me if I had posted about my CY starter before.  I did mention it in the following thread but chose to not update that thread.

Reply 43. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12824.40.html


Chau,

I remember that thread now you referenced.  Do you plan on exerimenting more with a CY starter? 

Norma
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Trying New Starter with CY and Molasses
« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2011, 11:36:23 AM »
Chau,

I remember that thread now you referenced.  Do you plan on exerimenting more with a CY starter? 

Norma

Norma, I have been experimenting with the CY starter on and off.  I go through phases of using IDY, starters, hybrid starters, and my CY starter.  Just a heads up, if you leave the CY starter or even an IDY poolish on the counter or in the fridge too long without refreshing it, it will develop acidic notes to them.
If that happens, just dump about 90%+ of it, refresh, and allow it to become active again.  The usual flavor(less) profile wil return.

Chau

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Re: Trying New Starter with CY and Molasses
« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2011, 12:10:08 PM »
Norma, I have been experimenting with the CY starter on and off.  I go through phases of using IDY, starters, hybrid starters, and my CY starter.  Just a heads up, if you leave the CY starter or even an IDY poolish on the counter or in the fridge too long without refreshing it, it will develop acidic notes to them.
If that happens, just dump about 90%+ of it, refresh, and allow it to become active again.  The usual flavor(less) profile wil return.

Chau

Chau,

I know you do go though many experiments using different yeasts and starters.  :chef:

Thanks for the heads up on if I leave the CY starter or IDY poolish out at room temperature or in the fridge too long it will develop acidic notes.  I havenít experimented with an IDY poolish longer than the one I cold ferment for the preferment Lehmann dough at market for 3 days, but that one doesnít get acidic in 3 days. 

Thanks also for telling me if the acidic notes happen to dump out 90% and allow it to become active again.

I had mentioned I just feed the CY and molasses starter about an hour ago, in my last post.  That darn bugger is really taking off.  :o These are the two pictures right after I fed it and an hour later.  Donít know what is making it so active, but hope it does okay.  I have to go away from home for awhile today, so I wonít be able to watch it.

Norma
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Trying New Starter with CY and Molasses
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2011, 12:16:38 PM »
Well Norma, it was really hungry and there is a huge load of yeast in it, 2gm plus!  Once it is super active, I would dump 50-75% of it and refeed with just flour and water.  It's ready to be used, but f you don't have plans for it, you cam also put it into the fridge immediately after feeding.  He cold is the temp of your fridge?

Chau


Offline norma427

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Re: Trying New Starter with CY and Molasses
« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2011, 01:03:09 PM »
Well Norma, it was really hungry and there is a huge load of yeast in it, 2gm plus!  Once it is super active, I would dump 50-75% of it and refeed with just flour and water.  It's ready to be used, but f you don't have plans for it, you cam also put it into the fridge immediately after feeding.  He cold is the temp of your fridge?

Chau

Chau,

You are right, that the starter was really hungry, because it has doubled again in the next hr.  Thanks for telling me to dump 50-75% of the starter and refeed just with flour and water.  I might make a dough with it for this coming Tuesday if it seems ready.  My home refrigerator is about 39 degrees F.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying New Starter with CY and Molasses
« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2011, 05:57:13 PM »
This is how my starter with CY and molasses looked today before I left to do errands and go to market.  When I returned home the starter has fallen some, so I guess it is time to feed it again.  I also went to the supermarket today and they did have some Red Star cake yeast so I am going to start another starter just using cake yeast. 

I am not sure if I am going to continue feeding the starter that I started last evening some molasses or not.

Norma
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Trying New Starter with CY and Molasses
« Reply #12 on: December 22, 2011, 07:26:13 PM »
Norma no need to make a new starter.  If you stop feeding it molasses, the molasses will just get diluted out over the next 4-5 feedings.  No harm in feeding it molasses either though.  I just suggested to leave it out so the situation doesn't become too complicated IF you want to do a comparison test between a dough with fresh CY vs a dough with the CY starter.  You don't have to do this test by any means.  If you want you can continue feeding the starter with molasses and just use it when you need it.  The suggestions are just that, suggestions.

Again, dump half, refeed, and when it domes, it's ready to be used.

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying New Starter with CY and Molasses
« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2011, 09:00:44 PM »
Norma no need to make a new starter.  If you stop feeding it molasses, the molasses will just get diluted out over the next 4-5 feedings.  No harm in feeding it molasses either though.  I just suggested to leave it out so the situation doesn't become too complicated IF you want to do a comparison test between a dough with fresh CY vs a dough with the CY starter.  You don't have to do this test by any means.  If you want you can continue feeding the starter with molasses and just use it when you need it.  The suggestions are just that, suggestions.

Again, dump half, refeed, and when it domes, it's ready to be used.

Chau,

Thanks for telling me there is no need to make a new starter.  I canít understand that the molasses would get diluted out over the next 4-5 feedings.  I just love the smell of molasses, can you help me?   :angel:  Seriously, I will just stop my CY and molasses and feed it regularly.  I would like to do a comparison with CY versus a dough with the CY starter.  This darn bugger is more than doubling in an hour.  I guess the amount of cake yeast I used originally was a lot.

Norma
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Trying New Starter with CY and Molasses
« Reply #14 on: December 22, 2011, 09:57:14 PM »
Yes, you used a lot initially but it's no big deal.  Since it was frozen initially, better to use a lot than not enough.  

So about diluting the molasses.  If you stop adding molasses and just feed it with flour and water, this is what would happen....

If you dump 1/2 of the starter and refeed with just flour and water, only about 50% of the molasses will remain.   Once that gets active, you discard another 50% starter and refeed.  Now only 25% of the original amount of molasses remains, so on and so forth.  Every time you dump and refeed without molasses, the original amount is reduced by 50% until the residual amount is so small it's virtually undetectable.

So first dumping and feeding = 50% of original amount of molasses remains
2nd dump and feed= 25%
3rd = 12.5%
4th = 6.25%
5th = 3.12% left

And that's with dumping 50% of the active starter.   If you were to dump 75% -90%, the amount of molasses would be diluted even quicker.  So if you dump 95% of the active starter, refeed with the same volume thatyou discarded, it would take maybe 2 cycles for most of that molasses to be gone.  

For now though, you can use this active starter to make dough until you are ready to do a test between fresh CY and CY starter.  No need to wait until all the molasses is gone you know.  Also you can also save some of this CY starter in dry form to reactivate at a later date, in case you ever lose or get tired of this CY starter.

To do this, just spread a thin film of active starter on wax or parchment paper and let it air dry.   Then save it in a ziplock.  You can always reactivate it later like any starter, but it will take about 3 days to become active.

Chau

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying New Starter with CY and Molasses
« Reply #15 on: December 22, 2011, 10:59:38 PM »
Yes, you used a lot initially but it's no big deal.  Since it was frozen initially, better to use a lot than not enough.  

So about diluting the molasses.  If you stop adding molasses and just feed it with flour and water, this is what would happen....

If you dump 1/2 of the starter and refeed with just flour and water, only about 50% of the molasses will remain.   Once that gets active, you discard another 50% starter and refeed.  Now only 25% of the original amount of molasses remains, so on and so forth.  Every time you dump and refeed without molasses, the original amount is reduced by 50% until the residual amount is so small it's virtually undetectable.

So first dumping and feeding = 50% of original amount of molasses remains
2nd dump and feed= 25%
3rd = 12.5%
4th = 6.25%
5th = 3.12% left

And that's with dumping 50% of the active starter.   If you were to dump 75% -90%, the amount of molasses would be diluted even quicker.  So if you dump 95% of the active starter, refeed with the same volume thatyou discarded, it would take maybe 2 cycles for most of that molasses to be gone.  

For now though, you can use this active starter to make dough until you are ready to do a test between fresh CY and CY starter.  No need to wait until all the molasses is gone you know.  Also you can also save some of this CY starter in dry form to reactivate at a later date, in case you ever lose or get tired of this CY starter.

To do this, just spread a thin film of active starter on wax or parchment paper and let it air dry.   Then save it in a ziplock.  You can always reactivate it later like any starter, but it will take about 3 days to become active.

Chau

Chau,

Thanks so much for the detailed information about what to do with this starter!  ;D Do you really think this starter could be used already?  If it think so, I might try to make some kind of bread for Christmas.  Maybe a simple recipe that wouldnít matter if it didnít turn out okay. 

I have dried some of my starters before, so I do know how to go about that, but if anyone else looks at this thread your reply was fantastic!  :)

Norma
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Trying New Starter with CY and Molasses
« Reply #16 on: December 22, 2011, 11:47:27 PM »
Chau,

Thanks so much for the detailed information about what to do with this starter!  ;D Do you really think this starter could be used already? 

Norma

You're welcome Norma.  Yes, the starter is ready to use.  If it is active an hour after feeding and will pass the float test, that is a bit of it will float in water, it is ready to use.  I would simply treat and use it as any other starter.

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying New Starter with CY and Molasses
« Reply #17 on: December 23, 2011, 07:45:13 AM »
You're welcome Norma.  Yes, the starter is ready to use.  If it is active an hour after feeding and will pass the float test, that is a bit of it will float in water, it is ready to use.  I would simply treat and use it as any other starter.

Chau,

Thanks for telling me you think this starter is ready since it doubles in an hour.  I forgot about the float test, but will do that today.  Thanks for reminding me about the float test!  :)

I will only try a basic bread recipe with the starter for Christmas, but might try a dough for Tuesday if there is enough time. 

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying New Starter with CY and Molasses
« Reply #18 on: December 24, 2011, 01:46:03 PM »
I kept feeding my starter CY starter molasses just for the heck of it, but can change it over like Chau told me before in his post.  I mixed the dough for the bread last evening using the CY starter fed with molasses and used the formula at Reply 10 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9696.msg84275.html#msg84275 for the bread, without using IDY.  I also added some molasses in the dough formula.  The bread sat at room temperature all last night and I gave it two punch downs this morning, before dividing, scaling, and balling.  It is now rising in the pans again, but I have no idea how the loaves of bread will turn out.  I also wanted to see what would happen with a bulk ferment, besides trying out my CY starter with molasses.

Norma
« Last Edit: December 24, 2011, 01:48:21 PM by norma427 »
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Re: Trying New Starter with CY and Molasses
« Reply #19 on: December 24, 2011, 01:46:52 PM »
Norma
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