Author Topic: Lucci in Santa Fe, NM - Authentic NY pizza in NM?  (Read 6908 times)

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Offline Jackie Tran

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Lucci in Santa Fe, NM - Authentic NY pizza in NM?
« on: December 28, 2011, 10:41:38 PM »
I happened to be in Santa Fe today around noon time and needed a quick lunch.   My wife did a search on her car Nav system for restaurants near us and we were only less than a mile away from Patsy's NY pizza.  I was like WTH? Is this a chain of the famed Patsy's or just another copy cat restaurant?  Well my wife was game to try it so we headed over only to find Lucci's NY pizza restaurant.  

It's not a Patsy's but we were there and had limited time so we decided to give it a shot.  I walked in and immediately noted that the little joint was fairly busy, a good sign.  They also sell slices there so that would be perfect.  I didn't have to order a whole pie and if I didn't like the pizza, it would be no big deal.  I scanned the tables and check out the slices people were eating and they looked okay to me.  Didn't have high hopes for this pizza.  Some of the slices looked a bit thick, very little char which I happen to like, and very average looking slices.  But this is were I was wrong!  ;D

My wife ordered 2 slices and a soda, while I opted for 1 slice and 6 chicken wings with a soda.   Toppings were added to slices and reheated and came out shortly.  While I was waiting I looked around the place and noted a pile of Stanilaus 7-11's, one of my all time favorite tomatoes, so this was a good sign.  I also saw a pile of 50lb bags of Con Agra Full Power HG flour, another good sign.  So maybe the pizza was authentic afterall.  They are definitely using the right ingredients.

When our slices came to the table, I noted that these slices had several qualities of famed NY slices I keep reading about.

-fairly blonde rim
-appropriately thin and good size slices.
-Foldable
-soft bottom

I snapped a few pics and started in on the slices.  Wow - great texture!  The  slices were very easy to eat.  Not chewy at all.  The bites seem to melt in the mouth.  The crust was not that thick and hydration is fairly low.  A few dry spots on the rim, but here is the interesting part.  The dry parts seem to just also melt in the mouth.  Powdered off is the best description I could come up with.  They weren't chewy at all despite being dry.   Slight crunch and then very easy to chew.  The texture was a little bit like a biscuit, which seems very uncharacteristic for a HG  low hydration dough. The soft parts of the crust was even better.  I don't know anything about NY pizza, but I enjoyed this pizza quite a bit so I am wondering if this is authentic as they come.  Couldn't help but wonder how much better a freshly baked pie would have been.

As we finished our lunch, the man who took our order came over and asked us how we like the pizza.  I told him I was a pizza nut and thought his pies were great!  He seemed pleased with that as we chatted about pizza.  I think he could tell that I am crazy about pizza per our conversation.

Things I found out from the conversation...
Sauce - mix of 7-11's and Full red with spices.  Not cooked.
Cheese - Rosale or Rosali?  He's in the process of trying to source Grande.
Crust - HG flour, filtered water, dry yeast, salt, a bit of sugar and oil.  He didn't say sugar and oil.  I did and he agree so I really don't know if he was just agreeing just to get rid of me. lol.
Oven - Blodgett deck oven.  Bake time according to the guy working the oven is 7-11 minutes depending on how often the oven is opened.

Here are some pics.  
« Last Edit: December 29, 2011, 01:22:54 AM by Jackie Tran »


Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Lucci in Santa Fe, NM - Authentic NY pizza in NM?
« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2011, 10:42:30 PM »
pizza pics

Offline scott123

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Re: Lucci in Santa Fe, NM - Authentic NY pizza in NM?
« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2011, 11:45:05 PM »
That's pretty much the real deal.  My excitement is a bit tempered with the longer bake time, correspondingly denser rim and potentially extreme amount of oil, but I'm still doing the same kind of cartwheels that I do when I see some of the other West coast NY places like Luigi's and Avellinos.

The Full Power appears to be 14% protein (Rebranded Kyrol?).  There's only two ways to get a truly tender 14% protein dough- severe underkneading or lots of oil.  Other than the king of underkneading himself, Jim Lahey, I've never heard of a pizzeria owner outside of this forum that had the slightest clue about the potential benefits of underkneading- so my money's on lots of oil.  I would start with high-ish oil- 5% and medium-high hydration- maybe 63, for a high-ish effective hydration. The whole crumb was a bit dry but still very tender, correct, not just the exterior, right?

You know, I'm not exactly buying the whole 7-11 minute claim.  That sounds a lot like a ballpark figure that might not stand up to an actual stopwatch. The crumb is a bit fine, but I'm still seeing some air in the crust. No, it's not a 4 minute bake, but it could easily be 6. How often do you get to Sante Fe, Chau?

Chau, were these some of the best slices you've had or was this more about being incredibly impressed by the tenderness of the crumb, or was it somewhere in between?

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Lucci in Santa Fe, NM - Authentic NY pizza in NM?
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2011, 12:00:22 AM »
Chau,

I went there about 4 years ago when it first opened as Patsy's:

Patsy's Comes to Santa Fe

It was worse than bad. IIRC, it has had a few reincarnations. I've steered clear of it, but your review has me champing at the bit to give it a try. Thanks.

Bill/SFNM

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Lucci in Santa Fe, NM - Authentic NY pizza in NM?
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2011, 12:18:15 AM »
Scott some more info to try and clear the air about this pizza.  First off the guy that took the order and working the cash registered said he was not the owner when I asked, but he did say he made the dough and that it took him a while of trial and error to get the crust to it's current state.  He also said that he is still working on the dough trying to improve it to which I told him that he was already there with a smile.  

The guy working the oven that gave me the bake times was just another guy hired to work the oven.  I too doubted the 11minute bake time but I could see these in the 6-8min realm depending on how hot the oven is.  Also the times he quoted me are probably for straight baked pies and perhaps not for pies that are to be sold as slices and then reheated.   Though almost everyone was ordering slices, I didn't see any pies sitting out on the counter or in the display to be sliced, so unfortunately I didn't get to see the process of reheating the slices.

A bit more about the crust and crumb.   The thickness factor was spot on for a NY style pie.   The slices were soft and easy to eat, no crunch at all and little chew.  They weren't oily or oil soaked either.  The amount of sauce and cheese he use was very balanced which I appreciated.  The rim was also relatively thin with some decent amount of bubbling to the rim.  The areas that didn't bubble up had a pretty tight crumb and relatively soft.  So yes Scott, I would say a rather dry soft crumb.  Not moist or wet.  The areas that did bubble up were dry and crunchy, but not chewy at all.  As I said, the crust seem to powder off as you chew, almost as if the crust was made from a weak flour like AP or even pastry flour, but it was made with HG flour.   Almost biscuit like or a soft airy cracker.  The crust and crumb over all didn't taste or seem oily at all, which is also a bit of a mystery to me.  Usually with a crust like an American style pie with high amounts of oil in it, I can readily detect the oil.  It would typically have a soft pan like pizza flavor and texture.  But this wasn't like that, so I really don't know how high the oil is.  

Scott I don't get to Santa Fe that often because I can usually find whatever I need here in Albuquerque.  We just happened to go there today as I didn't have to work and wanted to test drive a new vehicle which they didn't have in Albuquerque.  The guy also sold me a big can of 7/11 for $4.33!  I was stoked, so I may have to go back for more pizza and 7/11's when I run out.   :-D

Scott I did also ask him about the mixer he uses, but I could tell that he was starting to become a bit dodgey with the answers so I decided not to be to rude and keep pressing.  I did let him know that next time I come back I would inquire more about his dough management and mixing process.  

Yes these were some of the best slices I have had but not b/c the overall slices were phenomenal.  It was mainly b/c I was so impress by the crust and crumb.  The sauce and cheese was good too, but these were reheated slices and still very very good. The tenderness/softness of the crumb was very reminescent of Bianco's crumb (BF 3 min-ish WFO bake) and another crust I had in town from a mobile pizza operator using caputo 60%HR baked in the 3-4m range.  Yes all 3 crumbs had very similar textures, very soft.

Scott I also enjoyed these slices b/c as I was eating I was thinking of you and how maybe you aren't so crazy after all about great NY pizza. lol.

Scott, I'm sure you won't be surprise to hear that I am mixing up dough tonight and will bake up the pies in a few days in an attempt to get a similar crust.  I'm going with a moderate (for me) hydration with 2% oil anda well mixed dough.  That tight crumb structure either says low hydration or well mixed or a combination of both.

Chau
« Last Edit: December 29, 2011, 01:32:23 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Lucci in Santa Fe, NM - Authentic NY pizza in NM?
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2011, 12:23:59 AM »
Chau,

I went there about 4 years ago when it first opened as Patsy's:

Patsy's Comes to Santa Fe

It was worse than bad. IIRC, it has had a few reincarnations. I've steered clear of it, but your review has me champing at the bit to give it a try. Thanks.

Bill/SFNM


Bill I'm not sure if you will enjoy it as much as I did, but it's definitely worth a try.  I had reheated slices which I thought were pretty good, but again it was mostly the crust that I enjoyed.  I've been chasing this type of crumb unsuccessfully for a short bit now, so I was very happy to have it for lunch.  Overall though, I thought the slices were good.  I bet one of there fresh baked pies would be very good though.  Just remember this isn't NP pizza.  :-D The crust is made with dry yeast and doesn't have the typical flavor profile of a SD crust.  

Chau

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Lucci in Santa Fe, NM - Authentic NY pizza in NM?
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2011, 12:28:03 AM »
Just remember this isn't NP pizza.

Really? So that is why all the pizzas I've had in NYC were so bad! ::)

Seriously, I was a big fan of NYC pizzas long before I ever went to Naples. I'd be very happy if Lucci is up to par.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Lucci in Santa Fe, NM - Authentic NY pizza in NM?
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2011, 12:40:37 AM »
Really? So that is why all the pizzas I've had in NYC were so bad! ::)

Seriously, I was a big fan of NYC pizzas long before I ever went to Naples. I'd be very happy if Lucci is up to par.

Cool, let me know how you like it or not.  This was very different from the many so called "NY style pies" we have in Albuquerque.  The stuff we have here is rather thick and bready with too much cheese on it.  YUCK!!  Gosh, we have a lot of gross pizza in Albuquerque.  This was definitely a nice change of pace for me.  This may be also pretty average for NY I don't know, but for out here in the desert, I'll definitely be going back.

Chau

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Lucci in Santa Fe, NM - Authentic NY pizza in NM?
« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2011, 12:55:30 AM »
I always thought New York style meant the person taking your order was rude.  :)

Many years ago I went to the now-defunct Pastrami King in Queens. When it was my turn, I hesitated for some reason, so the guy behind the counter yelled at me, "you're having a pastrami on rye!". (Of course I was).

It wasn't quite as bad as "The Soup Nazi", but it served to remind me that authentic NY-style is usually served with a side of attitude.

On a similar note, we were having lunch at the Carnegie Deli (pastrami on rye, of course). Our server asked us if we were having a good time visiting NYC. I asked her how she knew we were tourists. She replied that we were too polite to be locals.


Offline scott123

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Re: Lucci in Santa Fe, NM - Authentic NY pizza in NM?
« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2011, 05:52:57 PM »
Scott I also enjoyed these slices b/c as I was eating I was thinking of you and how maybe you aren't so crazy after all about great NY pizza. lol.

Chau, considering my obsession with this particular sub genre of pizza, I would have been highly insulted had you not thought about me  ;D

Regarding oil... I've  been adding 3% oil to my dough for quite some time and can honestly say that I don't detect any oiliness, just tenderness in the crumb.  4 or 5%, that might be a different ball game. Up until quite recently, I've felt pretty strongly that authentic NY style pizza shouldn't exceed 3%, but, lately, after seeing Zuppardi's and pondering it many hours, I might, maybe, be open to both experimenting with a bit more oil myself, and, possibly altering my definition of the style to 'up to 4%' rather than up to 3%. Maybe. I don't know. This is the kind of thing that keeps me up at night. ;D

As I mentioned before, there's not a lot of ways to achieve tenderness with a 14% flour.  I have to admit, I've got a bit of a blind spot when it comes to very low hydrations.  I've always felt that they tended to produce denser results, so I steered clear of them.  I have noticed a distinct trend that when you push the hydration, the crumb gets airier but, at the same time, chewier, so, in theory, it would make sense that as you drop the hydration the crumb gets dense and more tender.  In theory.  If I haven't tested it myself, I can't say for certain, but, considering the potential suspects here, there's not a lot of choice

5+% oil (you say no, and I'll defer since I know you've worked with higher oil doughs- maybe 4?)
Underkneading (to a typical pizza guy, underkneading is quantum physics)

All you have left is potential low hydration tenderization.

As I look at the photos, the crumb looks like a long-ish bake and possibly slightly lower hydration, but, when I see some of the bubbles in the rim, the hydration doesn't feel that low. The rim feels a lot like a regular NY pizza, while the crumb has an alien quality. I've never seen a shot of a NY pizza with a crumb like that.  You talk about biscuit-y, and that's certainly close, but I'd also use words like cookie-ish, soda bread-ish and possibly even cake-y.  Biscuits, cookies and cakes are all high fat, so that's why I had the knee jerk reaction.

Something is definitely different here.  Dried milk? Eggs?  Extra sugar?  Maybe it's a hard fat, like shortening.  Shortening is a key ingredient for biscuits.

Edit: Semolina flour? That would increase the tenderness/biscuity-ness.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2011, 06:11:12 PM by scott123 »


Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Lucci in Santa Fe, NM - Authentic NY pizza in NM?
« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2011, 06:24:27 PM »
I always thought New York style meant the person taking your order was rude.  :)

Many years ago I went to the now-defunct Pastrami King in Queens. When it was my turn, I hesitated for some reason, so the guy behind the counter yelled at me, "you're having a pastrami on rye!". (Of course I was).

It wasn't quite as bad as "The Soup Nazi", but it served to remind me that authentic NY-style is usually served with a side of attitude.

On a similar note, we were having lunch at the Carnegie Deli (pastrami on rye, of course). Our server asked us if we were having a good time visiting NYC. I asked her how she knew we were tourists. She replied that we were too polite to be locals.



Funny story Bill.  Here's one that is memorable to me.  About 12 years ago when I attended grad school in RI, I was at the bank depositing a check and wanting cash back.  After the young gal deposited the $, she goes right back to reading her magazine ignoring me.  No, thanks have a nice day or anything like that.  I said, I wanted cash back.  In a really disgusted tone, she said, "you filled the slip out wrong!"

To which, I responded sorry but I still want cash back.   She gives me the cash, tosses the receipt at me, and goes right back to reading her magazine.    :-D

(Welcome to the East Coast)  ;D  With such great pizza and Italian food around, why do some New Englanders have such attitudes?  :P
« Last Edit: December 29, 2011, 07:07:10 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Lucci in Santa Fe, NM - Authentic NY pizza in NM?
« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2011, 06:47:20 PM »
Scott, thanks for the reply.  The more I think about the % of oil, the more I think that you may be correct.  I tried 2% on this dough, but on my next go around I will lower my hydration by 2% and increase the oil to 4% just to see the difference.  

I also agree with you about hydration ratios.  You once told me that as hydrations go up, you'll get a chewier result, which I didn't agree with at the time, but I'm beginning to.  My recent experiments with baguettes are showing me this.  One of the factors in creating a nice soft crumb is that the bake has to be long enough to drive out the moisture in the crumb.  Wet crumb = chewier and not soft.  

The denseness in the crumb or a tight crumb texture, actually screams low hydration and/or over mixing.  When you over mix a dough you will get that tight crumb.  When you under mix or do folds by hand, you will get a much more open crumb.  

So this crust, im my estimation (IME), is a low to mod. low hydration, that is well mixed, and fairly high amount of oil for tenderness, and also baked at lower than your NY 4 min standard.  This is possibly a 7-8 minute bake.  But I can definitely see this crust being better at 4-5 min though b/c of it's low hydration.  

Scott, don't be fooled by those bubbles in the crust being related to hydration.  I gave it some thought, and those bubbles are IMO not related to hydration.  You can get those bubbles by trapping air into the dough during balling.  Also IME, those bubbles in the rim are fairly big proportionate to the thinnish crust.  This is due to a well fermented dough.  I say this based on the lack of color in the rim, which could be lack of top heat or the sugar being used up.  In well fermented doughs, I also tend to see a lack of color or even a more dullish in color rim.  The colors, if any are more muted and not as lively.   2ndly, the long fermentation is breaking down the gluten matrix and allowing the bubbles to form and rise easier during the bake.  This result of fermentation may also be responsible for that particular texture.  If this is true, it can only be done with commercial or cake yeast.  The window for over fermentation in doughs leavened with SD is much smaller than commercially yeasted doughs.  

So I'm thinking this is a lowish to mod low hydrated dough, with a fair amount of oil, balled early, and well fermented out, and baked at lower temps for around 6-8min.  

During our conversation I did say, "Now your dough is just strictly flour, water, salt, yeast, a little sugar and oil right?" To which he said "yes".  I then said, you don't put eggs or anything like that in the dough do you? and he said, no - no eggs.

You can defintitely even get this texture without oil or even fats in the dough.  I know it's hard for you guys to believe, but I have had this same EXACT texture in a supposedly NP pie from a local mobile operator.  Dough is made from 00 flour, no oil and yet had the same soft, tender, tight cell crumb, texture.  Exactly the same.  The crazy thing is that I watched while the guys were baking 4-6 small pies in a wfo without a live fire and the pies took forever.  Much longer than a 60-90 second bake.  Somewhere in the 4 min realm and the crumb was MORE tender than any I have made baked in the 60-90 sec realm.  Yes you read that correctly.  This to me really squashes the belief that 00 flour has to be baked hot and fast.  It's in the technique.   When I asked about his dough, he did mention the use of a poolish and CY.  I had thought that old CY was the softening agent, but now I also think it's in the poolish technique.  At least this is how I also get a similar texture with my baguettes using a poolish technique with IDY, and not CY.  

Also Bianco's crumb is similar in it's tenderness and he has said to me, no oil in the dough.  Chris uses BF with a "bit" of HG flour mixed in.  Again, 3 min-ish bake and very soft crumb.   I don't know but with all of these things in mind, I'm thinking to get this particular crumb, lower hydration than I previously thought coupled with a long fermentation.  I have a lot of experimenting to do yet.

Chau
« Last Edit: December 29, 2011, 06:51:29 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline trosenberg

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Re: Lucci in Santa Fe, NM - Authentic NY pizza in NM?
« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2011, 06:58:36 PM »
I agree that NY Style requires a bit of attitude.  Just about any kosher deli has a grill with Hebrew Nationals and knishes on the grill at all times.   I walked in one and asked for a knish.  The counter man handed me a square one, which any NYer knows are inferior to the round ones.  I said "I want a round one not a square one", the counter man without missing a beat said, "so bite off the corners."
Trosenberg

Offline scott123

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Re: Lucci in Santa Fe, NM - Authentic NY pizza in NM?
« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2011, 08:04:00 PM »
Chau, I'll bet any amount of money that the mobile operation has their 00 flour mixed up and is using a lower protein 00.  I've seen countless 100% caputo pizzeria flour pizzas and not one baked longer than 2 minutes ever looked tender.  You can see the toughness almost immediately when you look at a photo. Caputo pizzeria may be lower protein, but it's milled in such a way (with very little heat, I believe) to maximize it's gluten potential so that it acts like a much higher protein flour.

Bianco is one of those guys that understands quantum physics ;D I've watched how he forms skins on Jimmy Kimmel countless times. Other than Jim Lahey, I've never seen anyone handling dough more gently. I find it really fascinating that, out of all the videos and press there is on Bianco, not once is he shown either mixing dough or talking about mixing dough.  From the gingerly approach that he takes to forming, I'm 99.9% certain that he's an avid underkneader as well. He works with incredibly slack doughs- and I don't think the slackness comes from water, but from less kneading. You also have to keep in mind, as you mentioned, Chris is using mostly BF- and this isn't an Italian BF engineered for maximum gluten generation. He's using 12%ish BF that actually act likes 12%ish BF and has the corresponding tenderness.

Regarding your feelings about moisture in the crumb, it's just a theory, but I believe additional water creates more water activity, which, in turn, causes more protein interaction, which in turn, develops more gluten.

Here's a theory for you.  This place has some sort of NY 'roots' right?  Maybe, when this recipe travel from NY to Sante Fe, they didn't account for elevation and failed to raise the hydration one or two points. You still subscribe  to the concept of adjusting for elevation slightly, correct?

Were you able to watch the pizzas being formed? What does the dough look like?
« Last Edit: December 29, 2011, 08:08:47 PM by scott123 »

Offline chickenparm

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Re: Lucci in Santa Fe, NM - Authentic NY pizza in NM?
« Reply #14 on: December 29, 2011, 08:19:00 PM »
Not too much to add,except your description,pictures and other comments here,it's pretty much a great looking NY slice.
 8)

Another reminder to some,you can visit a place,and its downright going to taste really bad,or its going to taste really good.Sometimes it falls in between.Sadly,the first time going,if its bad,you tend to never go back again.

This has happened to many NY places I used to eat at.One day I would get a phenomenal pie,or slices,and the next time,it was just downright bad.

I dont know why this happens but it does.I tend to tell people to order a fresh pie than try reheated slices for the first time,because some joints,the reheated slices are nothing like the pie fresh.

That said,I'm glad to read that you received good reheated slices to enjoy,experience,and share it with us here.
 :)


-Bill

Offline scott123

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Re: Lucci in Santa Fe, NM - Authentic NY pizza in NM?
« Reply #15 on: December 29, 2011, 08:28:44 PM »
I dont know why this happens but it does.I tend to tell people to order a fresh pie than try reheated slices for the first time,because some joints,the reheated slices are nothing like the pie fresh.

Bill, I generally agree with, although, growing up, the 21" slice pies were always better than the 16" pies made to order. The only catch was that you had to get the slice pie before is sat around too long- considering I spent most of my non school hours there, that usually wasn't a problem :)

Re-heating really changes the nature of a slice. I find that minimal re-heating (as opposed to the mouth burning napalm cheese slices that most places like to offer) preserves the original nature of the pizza a bit better.

Offline chickenparm

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Re: Lucci in Santa Fe, NM - Authentic NY pizza in NM?
« Reply #16 on: December 29, 2011, 08:45:40 PM »
Bill, I generally agree with, although, growing up, the 21" slice pies were always better than the 16" pies made to order. The only catch was that you had to get the slice pie before is sat around too long- considering I spent most of my non school hours there, that usually wasn't a problem :)

Re-heating really changes the nature of a slice. I find that minimal re-heating (as opposed to the mouth burning napalm cheese slices that most places like to offer) preserves the original nature of the pizza a bit better.

So true.With slice shops,I always say or ask, "not too hot." There were plenty of slice shops that were excellent as well.Sadly,a business will push whatever is sitting out to make money and people will sometimes get orangey slices that look like it sat out past 20 minutes.The cheese no longer has any white left on them.They can be downright gross to eat.

My old buddy that ran a Pizza shop in NY,when I ordered slices for lunch,he didn't have a glass case where you can see the pies/slices before you ask for something.The pies were kept under the counter top on a rack of some kind.A few times he would pull a pan out and the slices looked orange and old.He would put it back,and take out another pan with a newer, fresher looking pie and get my slices off there.

The next person that came in,if they were not regulars,they received the old slices.I seen this happen often.Keep in mind this was not a high traffic shop,so slices and pies would sit out longer before reheated.

Sorry to go off topic here folks,this is the reason I suggest people to sometimes order fresh pies if they can for a first time experience.
 :)






-Bill

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Lucci in Santa Fe, NM - Authentic NY pizza in NM?
« Reply #17 on: December 30, 2011, 09:17:30 AM »
Chau, I'll bet any amount of money that the mobile operation has their 00 flour mixed up and is using a lower protein 00.  I've seen countless 100% caputo pizzeria flour pizzas and not one baked longer than 2 minutes ever looked tender.  You can see the toughness almost immediately when you look at a photo. Caputo pizzeria may be lower protein, but it's milled in such a way (with very little heat, I believe) to maximize it's gluten potential so that it acts like a much higher protein flour.

Scott, you may be correct about the low protein content of the 00 flour the local mobile wfo operator uses.  I can't recall the name, but it wasn't caputo.  He said he has used both in the past and this flour was just as good.  He was using this because it was easier to source.  It's definitely not mixed for him, he's a very small time mobile operator.

I posted more about this local wfo guy and the pizza I had there here...
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14060.0.html

Maybe, when this recipe travel from NY to Sante Fe, they didn't account for elevation and failed to raise the hydration one or two points. You still subscribe  to the concept of adjusting for elevation slightly, correct?

Were you able to watch the pizzas being formed? What does the dough look like?


Glad you are bringing some of these points to light.  The man at Lucci's did say it took him awhile to get the dough down and part of the reason was to account for the altitude difference.   Yes I do still subscribe to adjustments for elevation but it's mainly the % of yeast.  It should be decreased about 20%? compared to sea level.  The hydration if anything should be increase by maybe 2% because of the arid climate of the desert.

Scott I was not able to watch them make dough.  As I had mentioned, we had only about 30minute to get lunch.  We we went to Lucci, there was only 2 ppl working this small shop.  One at the register and one at the oven. 

Since we are talking about this particular crumb texture, I was able to see some of the dough used by the local mobile NP operator I had mentioned earlier.  I know it's 2 completely different doughs and styles, BUT same texture.   I was also able to talk to this mobile operator via email and he did share some insights into making his dough.  The dough I saw from the local guy again was 00 flour, 60% hydration, CF.  It was very white in color and very smooth in appearance.  It did not open as easily as NP dough should.  The guys had to work at it to open the dough almost as you see in videos of NY dough being opened.  Now this could be due to opening the dough cold/cool or the dough is a fairly low hydration, maybe a bit of both.   Again bake time on these were in the 3-4min realm and I would say closer to 4min or more.   Okay here is the interesting part about the mixing of the dough.   A poolish was used and mixed initially for around 5 min using a commercial planetary mixer.  Then the rest of the flour is added slowly and the mixing continue for another 12m.   Now I understand mix times really don't mean much b/c 1) the dough is affected by many factors not just mix time and 2) it's about gluten development that is important not mix times.  Mix times alone, mean very little.  BUT a 12 minute mix time is still 12 min and vastly different from 2 min.  This particular crumb, though I didn't take pictures, also had that tight cell, dense "looking" crumb, but yet the same texture.   Again, no oil to this dough.   What do you make of all this Scott?

If you go back and read that thread I linked to above, you will read of the same description for the crust and crumb.

Chau

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Lucci in Santa Fe, NM - Authentic NY pizza in NM?
« Reply #18 on: December 30, 2011, 09:20:15 AM »
Bill and Scott, some good points and insight into slices versus whole pies.   This was around noon and on this particular occasion, they were fairly busy, so I can't see whole pies sitting out that long.  Also the slices were definitely not overly reheated.  The cheese still had the proper melt as they arrived to the table and not dried out from overheating.  It also was not too hot to handle and eat right away. 

Chau

Offline scott123

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Re: Lucci in Santa Fe, NM - Authentic NY pizza in NM?
« Reply #19 on: December 30, 2011, 04:49:08 PM »
Chau, I'm sure you're aware of this, but keep in mind that Caputo makes low protein 00 flours, so unless these mobile guys tell you 'Caputo pizzeria flour' (red or blue bag), then I still think the odds are high that they're not using pizzeria 00.  Now... non pizzeria 00 60% dough being difficult to stretch- that's a little harder to explain, although, like you said, it might have been cold/cool.  Even the slackest of doughs will tighten up when chilled.

Density's Impact on Perceived Tenderness

Regarding the CY tartine HG bread having a similarly soft crumb to the CY 00 Mobile Oven crumb- it's important to be aware that air is a big player in tenderness perception. Just like air in ice cream gives it better scoopability, air in bread gives it a greater perceived tenderness.  In order to judge the two doughs fairly, the crumbs really should be of equal density.

CY impact/Yeast viability

Although dead yeast has been thoroughly proven to be a dough softener, I believe that the amount of dead yeast in your CY and the impact from that amount might be up for debate. It's one thing for commercial bakeries to purchase dead yeast (Glutathione) dough enhancers and add them to doughs for tenderizing effects/machinability, but jumping to the conclusion that previously frozen and/or stinky CY has enough dead yeast to create a substantial tenderizing impact is another story.

Even if you were working with CY with enough dead yeast to make a noticeable difference in tenderness, the glutathione would decrease oven spring.

How Baking Works: Exploring the Fundamentals of Baking Science

"Glutathione is also found in whole wheat flour, in particular in the wheat germ. ... Toasted wheat germ will not have the same high glutathione activity as raw wheat germ, since glutathione is inactivated by heat. ... If glutathione is not first destroyed, bread dough softens and becomes slack, and oven spring decreases. The result is lower loaf volume and coarser texture."

Your previously frozen CY Tartine loaf had, from what I can tell, the same or better oven spring than your non CY tartine loaves. With the same oven spring, that should rule the tenderizing effects of glutathione out. The mobile pizza guys might, from the density of the end product, be getting tenderness from using consistently old CY, but I really wouldn't bet on it.  As far as Lucci's using old CY- with their turnover, I think it's highly unlikely.

There's still unanswered questions here, such as why your old CY tartine loaf was so tender, but I honestly think the link between old CY and tenderness is a tenuous one.

Are you still in touch with the mobile guys?  It would be nice to know if they freeze their CY.

Rising Gluten

The bulk of my longer bakes are so long ago that I don't really recall the results. I know they were dense and without much character, but I can't really recall much about tenderness.  I did have a slightly more recent experience baking pizza at a friends house, in their oven, with their stone, a few years back, that I can remember much more distinctly.  This was around the time when I was still doing very late re-balls.  I don't recall the exact formula I was using, but I'm pretty sure it was 100% All Trumps, and, when I made it at home, it was pretty chewy with a 4 minute bake (especially so with the late re-balling). Because my friend had an anemic oven and stone, the bake time was extended to 8 minutes. Result?  Dense, but surprisingly tender- almost cake like.

I've been tossing a theory around my head that, although gluten is formed just by the hydration of the flour in cold fermenting dough, it's also formed by the action of the rising/expanding dough. If this is the case for fermentation (and I'm relatively sure it is), then it stands to reason that as dough begins to bake, that same rising action might activate gluten as well.  This could explain why a dough of the same hydration would be tough when baked for 4 minutes, but tender when baked for 8- because the lack of oven spring didn't activate much gluten.

This theory would work, IF, it weren't for the tenderness of Neapolitan crumb- especially with the noticeable tenderness increase going from more than 2 minutes to less than 90 seconds.

Caputo going from 90 second to 2 minute - less oven spring, decreased tenderness
All Trumps going from 4 minutes to 8 minutes - less oven spring, increased tenderness

Now, I only have one test here for the All Trumps, so I really can't say that longer HG bakes produce more tender crumbs, but the test I did do was intriguing and could somehow relate to this current conversation.

One thing I'm taking from this is that I might need to fail more- that even though I wouldn't want to eat the 8 minute 'mistake,' there may be more lessons to be learned from long-ish bakes. Maybe.


 

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