Author Topic: Lucci in Santa Fe, NM - Authentic NY pizza in NM?  (Read 7063 times)

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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Lucci in Santa Fe, NM - Authentic NY pizza in NM?
« Reply #40 on: January 15, 2012, 12:08:41 AM »
A few more shots of the crumb from different parts of the crust.


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Re: Lucci in Santa Fe, NM - Authentic NY pizza in NM?
« Reply #41 on: January 15, 2012, 07:32:21 AM »
It's official, Chau. I've talked to mayor Bloomberg and you're getting the key to the city.

That is just stunning.  This forum has so many amazing looking undercrusts, that I generally praise a great one with terms like 'top 5,'  but in this instance, I think that undercrust is top 1  ;D

Nice job on the creative slicing. I think you nailed the perfect size slice. Can you see the difference size makes? It really shouldn't play that much a role- it doesn't change the taste of the pizza at all, but it's integral to the pizza eating experience- getting your hands around it, the flop, etc.- it's all part of the magic.

So, you had two beautiful slices and I'm guessing a few small trimmings. Who ended up with the measly pieces?

What's your feeling on shortening? Do you think a 4% oil crust could match this?

I know you set out to reproduce Lucci's, but I think you've surpassed Lucci's completely.  I don't think you captured any of their biscuitiness- which, if you took the time to do, would be a step backward. And, while we're on the topic of clones, I think you've come up with a pretty good Avellino (San Fran) facsimile, and also something that would give Luigi's (San Diego) and run for it's money.

The NY slice is, imo, the pinnacle of Italian artistry tempered by American accessibility.  It's melting pot cuisine at the peak of it's universality. A nice car can have a lot of fans, as can a good piece of chocolate, but I don't think there's anything more potentially crowd pleasing, worldwide, than a great NY slice. The pizza cognition theory places far too much emphasis on nurture rather than nature.  I believe, quite strongly, in a universal aesthetic.  That there are some things so beautiful, that they are recognized as beautiful by the whole world.  And this is an aesthetic that we're genetically hardwired with. Take a look at society's perception of feminine beauty. The fashion industry can try to shift society's appreciation away from curvaceousness and health, and, for a few years, nurture can prevail over nature, but nature always wins.

Everyone has a NY slice gene- at least, they have a gene that can appreciate NY style pizza at it's very best- which, these days, is not very common. But that potential is there.  Because of this genetic potential/universal aesthetic, we are making something that can make the whole world happy.

One very small nit  ;D  If authenticity is your goal, lose the post baking basil. Fresh basil in the sauce is fantastic and has a long history of use, but basil on the baked pizza is strictly a mutant Difara's thing.

NY slices are not that trendy, even at their best, so I can't promise you fame, but if you were to sell this slice on a commercial level, with that undercrust, that crumb and that crunch it makes when you bite into the rim- you'd be one extremely wealthy man.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2012, 07:35:36 AM by scott123 »

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Re: Lucci in Santa Fe, NM - Authentic NY pizza in NM?
« Reply #42 on: January 15, 2012, 09:36:44 AM »
Chau,

As one who has spent a lot of time reverse engineering and cloning the pizzas of others, I know how difficult it is to capture the look and feel and characteristics and features of the pizza being cloned. It is not easy and you have to really know your stuff. In your case, you did a masterful job.

Peter

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Lucci in Santa Fe, NM - Authentic NY pizza in NM?
« Reply #43 on: January 15, 2012, 11:51:51 AM »
It's official, Chau. I've talked to mayor Bloomberg and you're getting the key to the city.

That is just stunning.  This forum has so many amazing looking undercrusts, that I generally praise a great one with terms like 'top 5,'  but in this instance, I think that undercrust is top 1  ;D


Scotty, I am so honored!  Your compliment is one of the nicest compliments I have received!  Top 5 for sure and possibly even the nicest of compliments!   ;D  No seriously...coming from you, it does count for a lot in my book.

Nice job on the creative slicing. I think you nailed the perfect size slice. Can you see the difference size makes? It really shouldn't play that much a role- it doesn't change the taste of the pizza at all, but it's integral to the pizza eating experience- getting your hands around it, the flop, etc.- it's all part of the magic.

I think it was Bill (Chickenparm) who I got the idea from.  Thanks Bill!  Scott when I first heard you post about the importance of size, I honestly didn't buy it.  After all, it's the same pizza so why should the size matter?  It does for 2 reasons.  First as you said, its it the hold, the flop, the fold, and the overall experience.  Secondly, I have come to realize that a slice isn't a NY slice unless it's got the right TF, or should I say thinness factor.  If the slices aren't big enough, you wouldn't be satisfied and would feel cheated.  This came to me when my wife after having 2 slices of Lucci's, said wow, I could easily put away another slice!  She might of been commenting on how much she enjoyed the pizza, but it dawned on my that the size, thus the amount of pizza is also an important factor.   A thin NY slice of pizza from a 12" pie ain't going cut it.  A normal person could probably put away a whole 12" pie like that with no problem.

So, you had two beautiful slices and I'm guessing a few small trimmings. Who ended up with the measly pieces?

This was the last pie baked and one of 7 pies baked yesterday afternoon with no company over for lunch.  I took a few bites of the tidbits and they ended up in the trash.  :-\  They were mixed in with a few other discarded pizza bones and all got swept into the garbage in a hurry as I was trying to clean up in a hurry.

What's your feeling on shortening? Do you think a 4% oil crust could match this?

Tough question.  I have only used 4%+ oil a few times but they were either for an American style PJ's clone or at a really high % for deep dish pizzas.   I will definitely be testing oil vs shortening side by side.  But as it stands, my gut feeling is that they produce a slightly difference effect.  I think the shortening produces a drier feeling crumb, but it could just be my current formula.  Even though this had 4% shortening, the crumb had no hint of oiliness or the taste of shortening/fat/oil, which reminds me of a comment you made earlier in the thread.  

I know you set out to reproduce Lucci's, but I think you've surpassed Lucci's completely.  I don't think you captured any of their biscuitiness- which, if you took the time to do, would be a step backward. And, while we're on the topic of clones, I think you've come up with a pretty good Avellino (San Fran) facsimile, and also something that would give Luigi's (San Diego) and run for their money.

You know Scott, I was't gonna say it but I definitely thought it.  The crust was better than Lucci's.  Their unique biscuity texture could possibly be due to a slightly lower hydration and or baking at a lower temps for another 2minutes.  My crust was really tender if theirs is ultra tender.  My crust had just a tiny more bit of chew which was a good thing.  But overall, not chewy at all.  On a scale of 0-10, 10 being shoe leather, these slices may have been 2-3 on the chew scale.  Hard to say accurately but you can kind of see the very slight pull on the tip as I took the first bite.  If you turn the volume up and listened to when I take a bite of the crust, you can hear the qualities of the texture and crust, and that's not a chewy crust.
Thanks for the comparison to Avelino's and Luigi's, I'm sure their pies are outstanding as Mike has attested to.

As good as this pie was, I think I can improve it just a bit more....maybe, and what I have is definitely a great base to start with already.  I'm interested in playing around with lowering the hydration maybe 1-2% just to see the difference.  When I do that, I am also interested in testing a 4-5-6min pies, just to see the difference.  I would like a slightly less dark bottom, slightly.  But, it is a bit crazy to mess with it at this point as it was very good.  

The NY slice is, imo, the pinnacle of Italian artistry tempered by American accessibility.  It's melting pot cuisine at the peak of it's universality. A nice car can have a lot of fans, as can a good piece of chocolate, but I don't think there's anything more potentially crowd pleasing, worldwide, than a great NY slice. The pizza cognition theory places far too much emphasis on nurture rather than nature.  I believe, quite strongly, in a universal aesthetic.  That there are some things so beautiful, that they are recognized as beautiful by the whole world.  And this is an aesthetic that we're genetically hardwired with. Take a look at society's perception of feminine beauty. The fashion industry can try to shift society's appreciation away from curvaceousness and health, and, for a few years, nurture can prevail over nature, but nature always wins.

Everyone has a NY slice gene- at least, they have a gene that can appreciate NY style pizza at it's very best- which, these days, is not very common. But that potential is there.  Because of this genetic potential/universal aesthetic, we are making something that can make the whole world happy.


Well said Scott and great analogy.  Not having pizza in NY and only going by pictures and descriptions, I really have no basis or experience to work with here.  Having said that, I really had not given the NY slice style a fair chance, judging only based on my own limited pizza experiences and the local crappy pizza.  You wouldn't believe the kind of garbage that is passed around as pizza around here.  It's highly offensive to me at this point, and I am not even a NY native.

The Lucci's crust really opened my eyes up to the potential of the NY slice and I have been wowed with the results so far.   All the variances within the style such as slight changes in TF, chew, coloration, crumb, hydration, cheese, sauce, etc are just that...slight variances.  They can all  be accounted and adjusted for and every pizza will be different base on who makes the dough, pizza, and who bakes it.  But variances aside, the NY slice style as a whole seems to be an excellent one.  

Scott, I'm not sure that we are hardwired for "NY pizza" per se, but we are definitely hardwired for the textures of a great pizza crust.  There will always be folks that are adamant in their stance that pizza and bread are different, but there will always be folks like me who contend that they can be the same and are the same.  If there's anything that is hardwired into people, it's the textural qualities of a good bread .  We can see this love for similar textured breads the world over.  People love soft breads with a tender crumb.  People also seem to love a crispy crusty bread with a soft and tender belly.   For me, no matter what style of bread or pizza, I always get totally encaptivated by such a crust and crumb.   Per our previous conversations, I have had this very similar texture in 3 totally different styles of pizzas.

For those who disagree with me about bread and pizza, as I have read comments about pizza crust being "bready", I'm not talking about the heavy sourdoughs that you are use to eating.  I'm referring to that really great french baguette type of bread.  If you haven't had it, you haven't had great bread.

But if it turns out that we all have a gene for NY slice pizza, that's definitely okay by me.  :-D

One very small nit  ;D  If authenticity is your goal, lose the post baking basil. Fresh basil in the sauce is fantastic and has a long history of use, but basil on the baked pizza is strictly a mutant Difara's thing.

Your comment made me laugh here, not b/c I disagree with you but b/c I know how fond you are of Difara's.  :-D  The basil was a last minute call just b/c I like a lot of basil on pizza, but also b/c this was the last pie baked of 7 pies.  Not counting the 2 NP pies, the NY style pies were to be either pepperoni, mushroom, a combination of both, or cheese.  I had already made a cheese pizza earlier and had gorged myself, so I was looking for something a bit different by the end.

NY slices are not that trendy, even at their best, so I can't promise you fame, but if you were to sell this slice on a commercial level, with that undercrust, that crumb and that crunch it makes when you bite into the rim- you'd be one extremely wealthy man.

Thank you for the vote Scott, I'll definitely keep that in mind should I have opportunity for a 2nd career.  Thanks for all the help and feedback.

Best,
Chau
« Last Edit: January 15, 2012, 10:25:37 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Lucci in Santa Fe, NM - Authentic NY pizza in NM?
« Reply #44 on: January 15, 2012, 12:12:46 PM »
Chau,

As one who has spent a lot of time reverse engineering and cloning the pizzas of others, I know how difficult it is to capture the look and feel and characteristics and features of the pizza being cloned. It is not easy and you have to really know your stuff. In your case, you did a masterful job.

Peter

Thank you Peter! Cloning for sure is a challenging and yet rewarding exercise.   Surprisingly enough my current results came about in a small part from the ideas and concepts I learned while making a few PH clone pies :o  Thanks to you and the many other members who did so much work in those threads.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2012, 12:14:21 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Lucci in Santa Fe, NM - Authentic NY pizza in NM?
« Reply #45 on: January 28, 2012, 11:57:25 AM »
Finally found some time to post this.  This pizza was made from the same dough as the pies posted above in reply #39 & #40 (3 day CF), but this dough was cold fermented for 9 days using 0.6% IDY.   This pizza was baked up in the LBE and not in the WFO as the other one.   The pizza was just as good.   The texture was excellent and the crumb a very slight bit more dry but hardly noticeble.  

I'll be baking up another 3 day CF batch today testing the difference between using oil and shortening in the dough.  

Chau
« Last Edit: January 28, 2012, 11:03:01 PM by Jackie Tran »

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Re: Lucci in Santa Fe, NM - Authentic NY pizza in NM?
« Reply #46 on: January 28, 2012, 12:42:08 PM »
Classic good looks there, Chau!

CL
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Offline chickenparm

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Re: Lucci in Santa Fe, NM - Authentic NY pizza in NM?
« Reply #47 on: January 28, 2012, 11:02:14 PM »
Awesome pie,I could eat that whole thing by myself!
 8)

-Bill

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Lucci in Santa Fe, NM - Authentic NY pizza in NM?
« Reply #48 on: January 28, 2012, 11:12:26 PM »
Thanks Craig and Bill!   These slices are so thin, it's easy to eat a couple of BIG slices.  :-D

So based on one of Scott123's questions to me about the differences of the oil versus shortening, I wanted to do a side by side test.  Today's bake was made with 2 doughs that were treated the same in everyway, other than the use of oil vs. shortening.

Typically, for this style of pizza in my wfo, I will let the oven cool down to the proper temps.  Today, I wanted to try somethng new and baked the pizzas while the oven was heating up instead of cooling down. 

For the first pizza (oil), I had a bit too much top heat so the crust was a bit darker.  It was a very good crust but it leaned closer to my other NY style pies and more away from this slice style.   This one is topped with Margherita Brand Pepperoni that member Parallei had generously shipped to me to try.  This was my first time trying it and I like it quite a bit.  It had better texture and flavor than the cheap pepperoni that I typically get in bulk from Sam's club. 


My wife who normally does not like pepperoni, ate that big slice you see in the last picture.  :P

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Lucci in Santa Fe, NM - Authentic NY pizza in NM?
« Reply #49 on: January 28, 2012, 11:19:07 PM »
For this 2nd pie (shortening), I backed off on the top heat but the oven had also cooled a bit between bakes.  This typically doesn't happen when I'm baking when the oven is cooling down from ultra high temps instead of baking while the oven is trying to heat up.   At any rate, the bottom was too light, so I decided to place the whole pie over my slotted GI metal peel and bake it over the coals to darken the bottom. This little trick worked.   ;D

You can see the patterned bottom on the youtube video.  



Here's how I get the big slices. lol.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2012, 01:25:51 AM by Jackie Tran »


Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Lucci in Santa Fe, NM - Authentic NY pizza in NM?
« Reply #50 on: February 18, 2012, 11:38:08 AM »
My home oven is still out of commission, so I baked these in the LBE.  Made a couple of Slice pies that were good.  These had 3% shortening instead of 4% which I think I did like better.  It gave the crust a bit more chew, but also allowed the bottom to stiffen up a bit more as well.  Both bake for around 5min, but the 2nd one with just a bit more heat and ended up with a crunchier bottom which I love.  It's amazing how much difference you can see with just a bit more heat applied to the same dough.  

I also made a video of the 2nd pie.  The 2 cheeses I am using on these pies are a bit new to me and the stretch is also very different.  I do like the way cheese stretches like that but it does look a bit sloppy and unweldy in the video.  I also ate the pizza super hot so it was a bit messy but delicious. Scott this is the best bottom crust I have made for this style.  I have seen others do it but I haven't been able to achieve it before.   When the pie or sliced is picked up and fold, the bottom CRACKS and is crusty.  I love that.



1st and 2nd pics - cheese pie topped Totonno's style.  I love the way cheese pizza taste when it's topped this way.  It IS different from sauce first then cheese.  You get some bites that are more sauce than others and it's really fabulous.

3rd and 4th - just showing the thickness/thinness factor of this style which is key.  

last pic - bottom crust of 2nd pie.  Perfect bottom crust texture and char.  Look at the way it cracks next to my finger!
« Last Edit: February 18, 2012, 11:45:18 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline thezaman

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Re: Lucci in Santa Fe, NM - Authentic NY pizza in NM?
« Reply #51 on: February 18, 2012, 01:55:21 PM »
 coming in to this tread late looks looks i have some reading to do. the pies look unbelievable.  just what i need another reason to fire up the oven. Chau,did you cover you sauce in the above pages? is that Sicilian oregano on top?

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Lucci in Santa Fe, NM - Authentic NY pizza in NM?
« Reply #52 on: February 18, 2012, 02:02:34 PM »
Thanks Larry.  Yes that is Sicillian oregano, sprinkle on after the bake.  Good stuff...

What did you mean if I covered my sauce? ???

If you are referring to the cheese pie with the Sicillian oregano, it was topped Totonno's style.  Fresh cheese (and grated block) first, then toss sauce on sporadically, big dose of grated parmigiano or romano, then swirl of evoo. 

These were done in the LBE, but I have also done some in the wfo.

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Re: Lucci in Santa Fe, NM - Authentic NY pizza in NM?
« Reply #53 on: February 18, 2012, 08:17:57 PM »
Chau, you went with a Totonno's style topping and 'loved' it?  Could you twist the knife in my back any further?  ;D

Seriously, though, you are a such a badass. I really hope, at some point, you can make the trip up to NY and compare what you're doing with the real thing (and see how superior yours is).

I'm happy that you're happy with the extra crunchy crust, but I have to admit, within my parameters, I think it might a bit too rigid.  The pizza in the first video haunts my dreams- this one is beautiful, but, for me, personally, it doesn't have quite as much impact.  Doesn't the additional crunchiness give you a slight loss in interior moisture?
« Last Edit: February 19, 2012, 07:54:16 AM by scott123 »

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Lucci in Santa Fe, NM - Authentic NY pizza in NM?
« Reply #54 on: February 18, 2012, 11:16:12 PM »
Chau, you went with a Totonno's style topping and 'loved' it?  Could you twist the knife in my back any further?  ;D

Scott, you need to make a trip down here so I can make pizza for you.  I'll be sure to top a few NY slice style crusts with Totonno's AND DiFara's style toppings and you will love it!  :-D

Seriously, that is the fun of making pizza at home.  You can do whatever you want right?   I have been doing the Totonno's style cheese pizza here and there ever since member Pizzablogger introduced me to it via Youtube and I must say it has a significantly different taste, texture, and experience compared to a pie that is topped with the same sauce and cheeses.  It's just a really nice change up once in a while.  You can understand that I'm not so faithful to one style or standard.  Even though I said a Totonno's style pie, the only similarity is the way it is cheesed and then sauced.  What makes my pizza different from Totonno's is the crust is completely different from theirs and my sauce is spiced as opposed to just tomatoes, although I do sometimes use a NP sauce for NY pizza.   I also use a mixture of fresh and block cheeses whereas they use just fresh mozz.  So similar but not the same.

Seriously, though, you are a such a badass. I really hope, at some point, you can make the trip up to NY and compare what you're doing with the real thing (and see how superior yours is).

Thanks Scott - I appreciate it.  I'll always remember that it wasn't long ago that I was starting out and needed a lot of help and how you always took the time to explain things to me.  I always felt free to ask you questions and I always felt that you gave me your honest opinions.  It was very encouraging and motivating to me to keep pushing the limits because at that time I did reach out to a number of people via PM for help and got very few responses.  Either because they didn't know or didn't want to help a new guy.  No promises, but I might be able to be up there for a few days the first week of March.  I'll know more soon, but if I can go, hopefully I can get a few members to meet up for pizza. ;)  We can even make dough if you want and if time permits.

I'm happy that you're happy with the extra crunchy crust, but I have to admit, within my parameters, I think it might a bit too rigid.  The pizza in the last video haunts my dreams- this one is beautiful, but, for me, personally, it doesn't have quite as much impact.  Doesn't the additional crunchiness give you a slight loss in interior moisture?

The extra crunch is only temporary and it too softens as the hot pie sits on the plate.  So in the end it's not much different from the other pie, especially b/c these slices are so thin.   On the thicker old school NY style, the crunchiness hangs out a bit longer but not much.  And this is the bottom crust we are talking about.  The rims are very similar in texture and moisture between this one and the previous one.  These rims were a bit darker b/c of the LBE environment.  If I had baked them in the home oven or the wfo, it wouldn't be so dark.  The shortening in the dough really prevents the crust/rims from getting too dry or crunchy regardless of the crust coloration.  So no lost in interior moisture.  Below is a shot of the bottom of that Totonno's styled pie.  It was baked at a slightly lower temp and the bottom was quite a bit softer than the 2nd pie initially.   They both ended up the same after sitting and it too was quite good.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2012, 02:26:10 AM by Jackie Tran »

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Re: Lucci in Santa Fe, NM - Authentic NY pizza in NM?
« Reply #55 on: February 19, 2012, 06:32:11 PM »
Those are sure looking good Chau. :chef:

What temp are you doing them on the LBE?  If it warms up, I may fire up the 2Stone and give your style a try!


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Re: Lucci in Santa Fe, NM - Authentic NY pizza in NM?
« Reply #56 on: February 20, 2012, 04:01:09 PM »
The first week in March would be fantastic, Chau.  Please let us know the second your plans are finalized, so we can start planning.

That's a helpful frame of reference for the crunchiness/rigidity.  My pizza comes out of the oven rigid, but it loses that rigidity almost immediately.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Lucci in Santa Fe, NM - Authentic NY pizza in NM?
« Reply #57 on: February 20, 2012, 05:08:06 PM »
Thanks Paul.  They are cook at a hearth temp of around 600F for close to 5mins.  A little less heat and shorter bake for a softer crust and a bit longer for a bit crispier texture.  You can adjust hydration rates as well.  As you can see these latest pies all have the margherita pepperoni that you so generously sent me.  It is excellent and I plan to get more when I'm out.   ;D

Scott, even my 70% hydrated NP pies baked at 900F for 60 seconds comes out of the oven stiff with a veneer on  the cornice.  I really like the contrast in texture.  I will let you know once I know more about whats going on.   

Chau

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Lucci in Santa Fe, NM - Authentic NY pizza in NM?
« Reply #58 on: February 22, 2012, 07:56:38 PM »
The first week in March would be fantastic, Chau.  Please let us know the second your plans are finalized, so we can start planning.

That's a helpful frame of reference for the crunchiness/rigidity.  My pizza comes out of the oven rigid, but it loses that rigidity almost immediately.

Good news, I'll be able to visit March 8 - 11 (Thursday - Sunday).  We will fly in on Thursday sometime and I can probably do a pizza tour on Friday or Saturday, up to you.   I don't have any preferences on where we go.  I'll leave it upto you or whoever else wants to join in.  Hopefully you aren't tired of doing these pizza tours yet.  :-X. Don't want to pizza you out.   I know my wife wants to stay on the upper east side around central park and 5th ave.   She plans for us to be taking a cab or the subway rather than renting a car.   Not sure if that will be helpful in planning or not.

Chau

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Re: Lucci in Santa Fe, NM - Authentic NY pizza in NM?
« Reply #59 on: February 22, 2012, 09:22:02 PM »
Chau Pizza us out ? NOT ! see you 1st week of March !! start dieting now !!! :-D

John
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