Author Topic: Lucci in Santa Fe, NM - Authentic NY pizza in NM? (Read 3665 times)

Jackie Tran · « **Reply #20 on:** December 30, 2011, 10:28:29 PM »

Scott, I don't know which caputo was using but if the blue bag is much more available, especially in the 55lb bags, I'm willing to bet that's the one he was using. I don't see many operators using the red bag or caputo's other flours in smaller bags, especially if the blue bag is available, but I never did ask if the blue was indeed what he was using.

The other thing to keep in mind is his mixing time of ~17m for 60% hydration using, let's just assume caputo pizzeria flour, and a commercial planetary mixer. This doesn't quite fit the minimal mixing picture does it? The mix times do correspond with the crumb structure I saw though.

Concerning the old CY bread. It wasn't the same texture as the pizza, but it was softer and the crumb structure looked closer to the pizza than past breads made with the same technique and IDY or a Starter. This is why I prematurely gave credit to the softening effects of CY. I agree, that it may play a role but how much is the question. It may not be as much as I gave it credit though. I now also think a poolish can also play some role in this unique texture, but won't know until further testing.

As far as HG flours making a ultra tender crumb with a longer bake time, I am reminded of Nello's pan pizza I ate in AZ this past summer. I wrote about it here...
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=12947.0
in which I describe this crust made with HG flour. "The crust looked THICK but again was very soft, cottony, and light with a light crisp to the crust".

One thing I'm taking from this is that I might need to fail more- that even though I wouldn't want to eat the 8 minute 'mistake,' there may be more lessons to be learned from long-ish bakes. Maybe.

exactly. We have a good knowledge base here on the forum but by no means exhaustive. There is still a lot left to be discovered. I don't know either but I keep getting this idea that this particular crumb can be found in a low hydration dough, well mixed, perhaps well fermented, and slowly baked.

Chau

Jackie Tran · « **Reply #21 on:** December 30, 2011, 10:37:54 PM »

Well, I baked up some pies this morning with a tester formula and while the pies were good, they weren't close to this particular crumb structure I was looking for. For the pies I used 100% HG bromated flour, 66% HR with 2% oil.

Scott, I think you are right in that the oil should be more like 4%. I will attempt to repeat the dough but drop the hydration further and up the oil to 4%. This time I will cut 50% BF in try get just bait lighter crumb. I'll also be adding in a bit of dry milk. The formula will be a modified version of a PH pan pizza. I know...not the same...but that particular recipe gives a very similar crumb structure. Anyways, I'll report back if I have any luck.

Chau

scott123 · « **Reply #22 on:** January 01, 2012, 01:28:02 AM »

Chau, from what I understand, Caputo makes two pizzeria flours, the red bag and the blue. Both have a photo of pizza on the label, and while they may not be identical, I believe they're relatively interchangeable. Caputo also makes other 00 flours that are lower in protein, which is what I think the mobile guys were using, and are now using a non pizzeria 00 from another brand. I'm uncertain about a few things- as previously mentioned, but there's not a chance in heck that either the red or blue pizzeria 00 flour, at 60% hydration, and ~17 minutes of mixing, could ever produce something truly tender with 4 minutes of baking.

And, yes 17 minutes, regardless of the mixer, is definitely not minimal kneading.

When you get a chance, try a relatively low protein all purpose (maybe 10%), with a moderately high hydration (for it's absorption value) of around 60%. No oil, no milk. Mix until smooth, but try not to overdo it. I really think that should explain the mobile pizza. Explaining Lucci's, well, that's another story.

Nello's is, without a doubt, high oil- both in the crust, imo, and in the pan. The excess of oil (along with the minimal ferment) is a big reason why it sat so heavy in your stomach.

Dry milk, fwiw, contains glutathione, but I'm not sure what it's buying you here.

norma427 · « **Reply #23 on:** January 01, 2012, 07:51:31 AM »

Chau,

I don’t know if you ever looked at some of the formulations Peter and I tried on the Mack’s thread, but they are low in hydration, and have a fair amount of oil. This is one of the formulations at Reply 595 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg134713.html#msg134713 Using that formulation, and some others on the Mack’s thread does give a rim crust that is tender, at least in my opinion.

Norma

Jackie Tran · « **Reply #24 on:** January 01, 2012, 02:07:47 PM »

Quote from: scott123 on January 01, 2012, 01:28:02 AM

Chau, from what I understand, Caputo makes two pizzeria flours, the red bag and the blue. Both have a photo of pizza on the label, and while they may not be identical, I believe they're relatively interchangeable. Caputo also makes other 00 flours that are lower in protein, which is what I think the mobile guys were using, and are now using a non pizzeria 00 from another brand. I'm uncertain about a few things- as previously mentioned, but there's not a chance in heck that either the red or blue pizzeria 00 flour, at 60% hydration, and ~17 minutes of mixing, could ever produce something truly tender with 4 minutes of baking.

And, yes 17 minutes, regardless of the mixer, is definitely not minimal kneading.

When you get a chance, try a relatively low protein all purpose (maybe 10%), with a moderately high hydration (for it's absorption value) of around 60%. No oil, no milk. Mix until smooth, but try not to overdo it. I really think that should explain the mobile pizza. Explaining Lucci's, well, that's another story.

Nello's is, without a doubt, high oil- both in the crust, imo, and in the pan. The excess of oil (along with the minimal ferment) is a big reason why it sat so heavy in your stomach.

Dry milk, fwiw, contains glutathione, but I'm not sure what it's buying you here.

Scott, I truely doubt he was using anything weaker than the pizzeria flour or the red bag, but I don't know for sure. I do know that he took a VPN class/course and was striving to bring authentic VPN NP pizza via his mobile business thus the use of CY as well as a wfo. The lengthen baking was when he was not manning the oven but his hired help. Perhaps he didn't train them properly. A look at his website claims a 90 second bake. http://pizzavango.com/menu.html

It has been awhile since I've spoken with the owner, but I did send out an email this morning inquiring about the flours he use. Hopefully he will have an answer for us.

Not a chance Scott?

There is always a chance. I seek to do the impossible.

I certainly don't have all the answers but curious as always to figure it out.

I will try to do a test with caputo pizzeria flour, 60% HR, well mixed and baked slowly in the form of a pizza to try to recreate this crust. Though not pizza, I have made bread on several occassions using 100% caputo pizzeria 00 flour, baked in the 40minute realm with a tender crust. So if that is possible, I'm not sure why making a pizza crust would be much different, but I know the task may prove much more difficult than I assume.

I agree about the dry milk. I don't think it adds much or takes away much other than some crust coloration if used in moderate amounts.

I made a 2nd attempt at the Lucci crust yesterday, coming close to it. I'll post some pictures later.

Chau

Jackie Tran · « **Reply #25 on:** January 01, 2012, 02:22:16 PM »

Quote from: norma427 on January 01, 2012, 07:51:31 AM

Chau,

I don’t know if you ever looked at some of the formulations Peter and I tried on the Mack’s thread, but they are low in hydration, and have a fair amount of oil. This is one of the formulations at Reply 595 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg134713.html#msg134713 Using that formulation, and some others on the Mack’s thread does give a rim crust that is tender, at least in my opinion.

Norma

Thanks Norma, I'll have a look later.

Chau

Jackie Tran · « **Reply #26 on:** January 01, 2012, 02:31:45 PM »

Here's the 2nd attempt. Much closer but still not there yet. Lucci crust was more tender and yet abit more dry than mine.

This dough was half BF and half HG, HR 60%, 4% oil, salt, sugar, a bit of dry milk, and a bit of vinegar. Now before anyone starts hollering abomination, I only added the dry milk and vinegar at the last moment borrowing from my baguette recipe. I was getting exceedingly soft crumbs there so I thought it couldn't hurt to do a bit of experimenting. I've been wanting to try using a modified version of that baguette recipe along with it's poolish technique to see what form or shape it would take as a pizza.

Jackie Tran · « **Reply #27 on:** January 01, 2012, 02:32:49 PM »

More pictures...

scott123 · « **Reply #28 on:** January 01, 2012, 02:56:53 PM »

Abomination!

Oh, wait, I'm not supposed to be hollering that. How about heresy? Can I holler that?

Seriously, though, if you're going to get to the bottom of the Lucci mystery, then I really think you need to stick to their ingredients. The guy you spoke to might have just been yessing you about the ingredients they use, but I think milk is long shot and vinegar is an even longer shot. As far as the mix of flours goes, since Lucci's has bromated flour options for just about any protein content, I think it's safe to say that they don't blend. It kind of feels that you want to get to the bottom of this, but don't really want to make crap pizza

Now, if you're baking pizza for yourself and want something tender, but with less conclusive results, then add the BF, but if you're going to figure this out, you can't use the BF. In all fairness, you really should be using a confirmed 14% flour, as opposed to the Sam's HG, which is most likely between 13 and 13.5.

This all being said, regardless of the imo, inconclusiveness of the results, your crumb and crust appear very tender. Visually, that's very very close. What was the bake time?

I noticed that you're getting, to an extent, your trademark superior oven spring. In this instance, I would probably take steps to avoid it. If the bulk ferment, stretch and folds and/or poolish technique are giving you better oven spring, then for this experiment, I think you need to nix them.

You had also talked earlier about additional kneading producing a finer crumb. Did you knead this longer than usual?

Jackie Tran · « **Reply #29 on:** January 01, 2012, 03:49:06 PM »

Scott, I do agree with what you've said about the dry mik and vinegar. I just don't happen to think they make much of a difference either way, but for future tests, I will omit them.

I agree about just sticking to HG flour, but I have never done a 60% HR with 4% oil and HG. I just couldn't imagine it would even mix, so again at the last moment, I decided to use 50% BF. I will do some more tests as time permits and keep it simple, HG flour no dry milk, no vinegar.

As far as the Con Agra Full Power HG flour vs Sam's Club HG bleached and bromated flour, I thought Sam's Club flour is just relabeled Con Agra HG bromated flour. Sam's may get their own blend, but for the sake of ease and economy, I can see it being a bromated version of the same flour. I am almost out of my current bag of HG bleach and bromated flour. When I am done, I will try out a bag of the CA full power flour. I believe my local Shamrock Food Distributor carries this flour.

I also agree about trying to avoid techniques that would improve oven spring. If I am to replicate the Lucci crust, it would perhaps be in a straight mix, very short bulk time if any, and a divide and ball to follow. For this previous bake, the mix time was around 5.5m. A poolish of sorts was made with the formula water, an equal amount of flour, and the remaining ingredients minus the oil. After the poolish was ripe, I added the oil, the remainder of the flour, and mixed on speed 1 in my KA mixer. The dough was fairly dry and took some time to incorporate. I mixed for about 5.5m until the dough was well mixed and pulling away from the hook. The dough was then allowed to double, at which time it was divided and balled degassing the dough in the process.

Yes this mix time is much longer than usual, more than double as I would normally only mix for about 2 minutes, and that's with a higher hydration dough.

I loaded the pies at a stone temp of 550F (as oppose to my usual of 650F) and the bake time was around 5.5m.

Thanks for your input,
Chau

Jackie Tran · « **Reply #30 on:** January 06, 2012, 12:01:45 AM »

Scott, just a quick follow up. I was able to make contact with the gentleman that owns the mobile pizza gig. He confirmed that it is caputo pizzeria 00 flour (blue bag) that he is using. At times when his distributor can not source it, they supply him with Pavetti 00 flour. Also the hydration is 58-60% depending on the season. I will continue to try and get more info about the mixing process and dough method.

I should say the bake time could have also been 3min rather than 4. It did seem very long and the rim was blond with some dry spots, but texture was very very soft. I will have to try another pie from PVG soon.

Chau

chickenparm · « **Reply #31 on:** January 06, 2012, 01:52:41 AM »

Chau,
Those pies look Wonderful to me! I had to ask,did you splash any evoo on them? It looks like they had some oil,but if not,it might just be from the toppings.

That aside,when I add some oil to to my pie toppings,it sizzles,leaves an impression all over the pie and taste fantastic.My cheese pie with oil,looks lie your pepperoni pie,but without it.

scott123 · « **Reply #32 on:** January 06, 2012, 02:59:12 AM »

Chau, I talked to Roberto about this tonight

I'm not sure I understood him completely, but the gist of it seemed to be that Caputo can be tender with long low temp bakes, as long as you increase the water to compensate for the evaporation. He actually mentioned, and I quote, a 500 deg. oven. And he spoke about adding sugar.

Considering how much Roberto shared with us that was lightyears beyond our knowledge, I'm cautious to say that in this instance, he's wrong, but I'm still incredibly skeptical. I just thought you'd like to hear one more opinion on the subject.

Btw, while I have it fresh in mind, Roberto talked a little about elevation- he doesn't really believe that major changes need to be made to a dough to compensate for elevation- only very slight ones, if any at all.

Jackie Tran · « **Reply #33 on:** January 06, 2012, 03:12:14 AM »

Scott thanks for info. I appreciate you passing this on as every bit helps to solve this mystery.

Scott, I know caputo can be tender at low temps. Again my main arguments for this is that 1) I can make a loaf of bread out of caputo pizzeria flour and bake it between 425-500F for 40m and get a tender crumb. It ain't pizza, but it's tender. And 2) I've eaten a pizza that was to die for tender made from a comparable 00 flour bake in the 3-4 min realm. I know it sounds reaching but that's all I have to go on right now. It's possible, I just don't know how yet. I don't know the tricks yet.

Yes, I also agree with Roberto about the effects of elevation. We get a bigger rise up here b/c the air pressure is lower. So a small adjustment in yeast or the temperature of fermentation is all that is necessary to make. And that adjustment doesn't even have to be conscious as most of us make those adjustments automatically with every batch of dough. And the adjustment only has to be made initially. It likely only takes a few batches of dough to dial into the new environment.

Chau

Jackie Tran · « **Reply #34 on:** January 06, 2012, 03:15:13 AM »

Quote from: chickenparm on January 06, 2012, 01:52:41 AM

Chau,
Those pies look Wonderful to me! I had to ask,did you splash any evoo on them? It looks like they had some oil,but if not,it might just be from the toppings.

That aside,when I add some oil to to my pie toppings,it sizzles,leaves an impression all over the pie and taste fantastic.My cheese pie with oil,looks lie your pepperoni pie,but without it.

Thanks Bill, I don't recall but I have before and do like to do that. I usually don't on a pepperoni or sausage pie b/c it leeches enough oil on it's own, but again I have before. I usually put it on a cheese pie prior to taking a picture of it if I remember. If I forget for the pic, I usually remember to add it on after I've eaten a slice and realize it's missing. Not sure why, but I just love a greasy pizza.

Jackie Tran · « **Reply #35 on:** January 10, 2012, 11:01:42 PM »

Did another test bake last night and this was my closest effort yet. Based on some comments made by Scott and a hunch, I decided to substitute the oil with shortening. I used BF for this bake, lowered my hydration a bit and used 3% shortening. I also used a poolish technique, but I don't think it matter much.

Anyway, I baked the first pie in the home oven for 6minutes. Closer to effort #2 above, but not there yet. This one topped with beef and onions.

Jackie Tran · « **Reply #36 on:** January 10, 2012, 11:06:18 PM »

So after I baked another pie (different formula) my freaking oven DIED! It just gave out. Too much broiler action I guess.

I decided to fire up the LBE and baked the 2nd doughball from the same batch as above. This doughball ended up proofing more than the first one b/c it sat under a warming light while the first 2 pies baked. I ended up on baking this one for 4 min. It had a puffier crust, really light crumb, and tasted much much closer to Lucci's than the first oven baked pie.

I know you can't tell from the pictures, but the 4 minute pie from the LBE was much better than the 6min pie from the oven. Not sure if I can repeat this but I will try.

chickenparm · « **Reply #37 on:** January 11, 2012, 10:24:11 PM »

Love that cheese pie! Looks perfecto!

Btw,Did you figure out what happened to the oven yet or are you waiting on a repairman to come?

Jackie Tran · « **Reply #38 on:** January 12, 2012, 12:02:33 AM »

Thanks Bill! I had a couple of leftover slices tonight retoasted and they were very good, still tender and crispy. Just mixed up another batch of dough with a few tweaks. I gotta say, I'm enjoying this NY slice style.

No idea what is wrong with the oven. The light and convection fan will turn on but not the oven. The stove turns on as well but not the oven. Can anyone help? We will have to call someone if there is not an easy fix.

Chau

Jackie Tran · « **Reply #39 on:** January 15, 2012, 12:05:50 AM »

Well, the repairman won't get here till Tuesday. In the meantime, I have some dough that needed to be baked so I fired up the WFO today.

I made another go at the Lucci's pie and I was very happy today with the result. For this pie I use Sam's Club HG bleach and bromated flour, 4% shortening, IDY, salt, 60+ hour cold fermentation. a 5min bake in the WFO turned out some excellent slices. Here's a video I made for you Scott123.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvAMcFJ9Pc4" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvAMcFJ9Pc4</a>