Author Topic: 55lbs of Supremo Italiano"00" for practice  (Read 7007 times)

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Offline capamando

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Re: 55lbs of Supremo Italiano"00" for practice
« Reply #25 on: January 11, 2012, 06:22:49 AM »
John,

Come on John... that is a loaded question...  ;D  We are just experimenting... my wife has a lot of baking experience and she also uses it to keep the dough from sticking after fermentation. She says that brushing or spreading a little oil around the edge helps with the browning ... I have told her that I have not read anything of the sort in the forum. I have read about oo bringing about a softness to the dough etc. Our next two batches will be made without oil...   When we get our unit, we will try with and without oil etc..  nothing beat direct experience as you well know.  What else can you add regarding oil?

Thanks for the feed back.


Offline JConk007

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Re: 55lbs of Supremo Italiano"00" for practice
« Reply #26 on: January 11, 2012, 12:15:28 PM »
Just curious thats all. Keep experimenting, thats 1/2 the fun ! FYI I used oil for a few batches during the experimental stage just dont use it anymore. Have fun!
I Love to Flirt with Fire! www.flirtingwithfirepizza.com

Offline capamando

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Re: 55lbs of Supremo Italiano"00" for practice
« Reply #27 on: January 11, 2012, 02:28:32 PM »
Hello,

We made two batches, each will make six 9 oz balls. Batch #1 was the same as the previous formula. We deviated on batch #2  by omitting the oil and lowering the water temp to 50.7.  We want to see how this affects the cold fermentation (48 hrs) and how it behaves when forming the skins. The bulk dough temp after a total mixing/kneading time of 10 minutes for batch# was 85.7 and for batch #2 was 72.9.

Photo1: Batch #1 ready for cold fermentation (48hrs)
Photo 2: Batch #2 ready for cold fermentation (48 hrs)

Offline capamando

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Re: 55lbs of Supremo Italiano"00" for practice
« Reply #28 on: January 13, 2012, 02:29:07 PM »
Hello again,

Well it has been 48 hrs (+ or - 1hr.) since I put the bulk dough into my fridge..take a look at the photos and it is evident that the dough that was mixed with water temp of 100 degrees increased almost twice the size of the dough mixed at a water temp of 50.7 ( my water did not reach the ideal 50 degrees... is close enough for me) I will now ball the dough put them into two different proofing trays and let them stay at room temp for two hours before I form the skins.. I might put a couple of doughs in the freezer for future evaluation.

Photo 1:  dough with water @ 100 degrees
Photo 2: dough with water @ 50.7 degrees

Same formula except that the one in photo 2 did not include the oil.


Offline capamando

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Re: 55lbs of Supremo Italiano"00" for practice
« Reply #29 on: January 13, 2012, 07:02:27 PM »
Hello,

After waiting for two hours at room temp (around 71 degrees) I formed skins with both batches (see previous post). The temperature of the dough right before forming the skins was 67 for the batch with mixing water at 100 and 65 for the batch where I used 50.7 water temperature when making the bulk dough. One significant observation that perhaps someone can shed some light on is that both batches were forming bubbles as I formed the skins. You might say that the batch with the 50.7 mixing water temp was forming more bubbles. We also noticed that the batch #1 was easier to work with...not sure why...the oil? the mixing water temp thus the cold fermentation/gluten formation? again, I hope that someone else can explain this issue. Oh, yes I am including a baked pie, even though that is not part of what we are practicing but what the heck! maybe there is something that can be extracted from it. I used my electric oven at 550 bottom rack 6 minutes..broil for 45 seconds. I used "00" flour which is meant to be used in a much hotter environment...like.... my future wfo!    ;D

Photo1: Batch #1
Photo 2: Batch #2
Photo 3: An edible pie


Offline capamando

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Re: 55lbs of Supremo Italiano"00" for practice
« Reply #30 on: January 14, 2012, 05:04:48 PM »
Hello,

So we are at it again. This time we decided to up the hydration from 57% to 60%. Batch #1 is with oil. Batch#2 no oil. We will continue the cold fermentation for 48hrs. Our mixing time with our KitchenAid is 4 minutes followed by autolyse of 5 minutes then 6 minutes of kneading.

Photo1. Batch #1

Photo2: Batch #2

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: 55lbs of Supremo Italiano"00" for practice
« Reply #31 on: January 14, 2012, 07:10:11 PM »
It has been fun following this thread - your approach is very precise. When you do have WFO temps, oil will be a detriment to the final product unless you are planning to have the temp below 750 or so. You will have no trouble with browning at temps above that.

John

Offline capamando

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Re: 55lbs of Supremo Italiano"00" for practice
« Reply #32 on: January 14, 2012, 07:39:00 PM »
John,

Thanks for the advice.. would you mind telling me what would be detrimental using oil to my pie with temp above 750? And what would the result be using the same 00 flour if I keep the temp below 750? How long would it take to bake? I am not planning on going below 750 but it is all part of the learning process. What would you consider to be the most difficult part to learn as far as temperature management?


Thanks

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: 55lbs of Supremo Italiano"00" for practice
« Reply #33 on: January 15, 2012, 12:29:29 AM »
John,

Thanks for the advice.. would you mind telling me what would be detrimental using oil to my pie with temp above 750? And what would the result be using the same 00 flour if I keep the temp below 750? How long would it take to bake? I am not planning on going below 750 but it is all part of the learning process. What would you consider to be the most difficult part to learn as far as temperature management?


Thanks

At searing temps where the pie cooks in 60 seconds, a fully fermented dough will char very easily. Add in oil, and the pie will most likely burn before the cheese has properly melted. It is not part of the normal neapolitan approach as it is not needed.

Temperature management is very specific to the oven and floor size. Mine is very small, so I can't really give too much guidance if yours will be 40in or larger. But once your oven is up to temp and holding in heat, it is pretty easy to manage. Just keep a log on your coals with a flame licking the dome.

If you do a pie in the 3 or 4 minute bake around 700, you get a very different product - but one that is appealing. Try it out when you have your oven up and running.

John


Offline capamando

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Re: 55lbs of Supremo Italiano"00" for practice
« Reply #34 on: January 15, 2012, 05:48:55 AM »
John,

Thanks again,..... I was looking at your avatar and realized from a global perspective we are basically neighbors  :D We live in Northampton, MA.

Armando

Offline capamando

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Re: 55lbs of Supremo Italiano"00" for practice
« Reply #35 on: January 16, 2012, 02:32:39 PM »
Hello again,

Ok, so with these two batches we changed upped the hydration to 60% and the IDY to .4%. Again batch#1 with oil..batch #2 no oil. This oil thing is the last time for a while that we will use oil in our dough formula. The consensus and the advice from the experts like DellaVecchia is that with a wfo, oil is not necessary.

Photo 1: Batch #1 (48 hrs cold ferment)
Photo 2: Batch #2 (48hrs cd)

Offline capamando

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Re: 55lbs of Supremo Italiano"00" for practice
« Reply #36 on: January 16, 2012, 05:11:08 PM »
Hello,

Take a look at the photos and tell me what you think...... 2.5 hours at room temp (72) dough temp @ 62. How do the dough balls look to you?  I am going to give it up to four hours and check the dough temp. I would like to try a warmer temp before forming the skins. Any thoughts on this? What would be the best temp from your experience?

Photo 1:  Batch 1
Photo 2:  Batch 2

Offline JConk007

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Re: 55lbs of Supremo Italiano"00" for practice
« Reply #37 on: January 16, 2012, 07:08:29 PM »
Looks good but it's really how it bakes, and that's hard to see without 850 degrees.  Think I did mention the oil earlier as well?
Hows the oven coming ? Did you get that trailer ?
John
I Love to Flirt with Fire! www.flirtingwithfirepizza.com

Offline capamando

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Re: 55lbs of Supremo Italiano"00" for practice
« Reply #38 on: January 16, 2012, 08:44:53 PM »
John,

Yes, it all comes down to putting that dough into that hot oven!  >:D ... no more oil... per your advice as well. Regarding the trailer...this week Nichols Trailers is ordering the Torflex axles etc... it should be ready for the oven in early March  ;D

Offline JConk007

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Re: 55lbs of Supremo Italiano"00" for practice
« Reply #39 on: January 16, 2012, 10:15:05 PM »
You may consider Hiring John for some in oven training/consult if he would do it  when that baby comes in. There are many nice looking neapolitan pizzas here on PM.com, however In my opinion as I have mentioned elsewhere, he puts out  some of the finest pies on the forum! and yes I wish I lived closer  :D
John
« Last Edit: January 16, 2012, 10:16:36 PM by JConk007 »
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Offline capamando

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Re: 55lbs of Supremo Italiano"00" for practice
« Reply #40 on: January 16, 2012, 10:27:26 PM »
John,

I appreciate that ...really. I am hoping that John will be willing... we are about an hour or so apart. 

Thanks

Offline capamando

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Re: 55lbs of Supremo Italiano"00" for practice
« Reply #41 on: January 17, 2012, 04:25:08 PM »
Hello,

My question after 25 pounds of Supremo Italiano "00"  is ....have I come up with a full proof formula that can be manipulated to give me a reliable product regardless of environmental conditions? ..... no fricking way! I can't even duplicate the same skin from one ball to the next!  ;D ... and you know what? as much as it creates a degree of uncertainty, I love the unpredictability... and I have not even tackled putting the skins into a wfo! This is one of the main reason why I am so looking forward to the day that my wife and I can serve our pies to the public. Each pie will be an original! It is a work of art that can be eaten and becomes part of you. I can not express how much I enjoyed looking at the photos of pizzas made by the master pizza makers in this forum. The day will come when I will share my own creations with all of you.... they will be a work in progress for the rest of my life. So, I will stop posting my dough experiments for now until the time that I can share the pizzas made in our brand new mwfo. As always I will look forward to your constructive critique.

Thank you for all of your help. ;D
« Last Edit: January 17, 2012, 05:14:21 PM by capamando »


Offline capamando

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Re: 55lbs of Supremo Italiano"00" for practice
« Reply #42 on: January 29, 2012, 05:10:12 PM »
Hello Again,

We have been practicing all along even though we have not posted our dough shots. However, John Dellavecchia has given me some homework and we intend to experiment with it. We will include photos of every step for his critique and the rest of you are welcome to comment too. Be back later this evening.  Check my window panning ... it is a bit scary but I was happy with the results... :P  ( the holes were done for effect)

Offline capamando

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Re: 55lbs of Supremo Italiano"00" for practice
« Reply #43 on: January 29, 2012, 05:45:02 PM »
Hello,

The sequence of photos will include the steps up to the point where we let the dough rest for 30 minutes after mixing the ingredients by hand. The % used in grams were not exact since my scale does not go less than 1 gram so I try to be as close as possible. The water temp dropped almost 5 degrees after dissolving the salt and yeast.. probably had to do with the room temp in the kitchen(70)... I will have to take that into account next time.

Offline capamando

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Re: 55lbs of Supremo Italiano"00" for practice
« Reply #44 on: January 29, 2012, 06:33:10 PM »
Hello,

Photo 1: Dough after 30 minutes rest (covered with a towel)

Photo 2: Fold and turn four times (rest for 15 minutes)

Photo 3: Dough after 15 minutes rest.

Offline capamando

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Re: 55lbs of Supremo Italiano"00" for practice
« Reply #45 on: January 29, 2012, 06:38:27 PM »
Hello,

Photo 1:  Dough after 15 minutes rest

Photo 2: Dough after fold and turn

One more fold and turn and one more 15 minutes rest before balling.

Offline capamando

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Re: 55lbs of Supremo Italiano"00" for practice
« Reply #46 on: January 29, 2012, 06:45:46 PM »
Hello,


Photo 1:  Dough after second 15 minutes rest

Photo 2: After fold and turn

15 more minutes of rest before balling

Offline capamando

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Re: 55lbs of Supremo Italiano"00" for practice
« Reply #47 on: January 29, 2012, 07:24:58 PM »
Hello,

Well, the final step before the cold fermentation(24-48 hrs) is done.

Photo 1:  Dough after last 15 min rest

Photo 2: After last fold and turn

Photo 3: Dough balls ready for cold fermentation

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: 55lbs of Supremo Italiano"00" for practice
« Reply #48 on: January 30, 2012, 06:57:34 AM »
Great job Armando. Somehow you need to get these dough balls smoother. Maybe someone can chime in that has used this flour before - either the flour needs a higher hydration, or the stretch-fold technique needs attention.

John

Offline capamando

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Re: 55lbs of Supremo Italiano"00" for practice
« Reply #49 on: January 30, 2012, 07:05:03 AM »
John,

The dough was kind of sticky which tells me that the hydration was ok right?  We were wondering if we needed to give the mass a few more folds and turns...


Thanks


 

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