Author Topic: My Neapolitan Progress  (Read 28951 times)

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Offline scott123

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Re: My Neapolitan Progress
« Reply #100 on: January 23, 2012, 12:24:07 PM »
Hey Scott, the broiler is good, but I dont have a good stone unfortunately. And no mods done to my oven at all. The rack that the stone is on is the top one thats closest to the broiler, probably 3in or less from the broiler, but I will measure for you the next time I go to bake. The broiler was on through the whole bake, bake was done in about 2 min 30 sec and from what I remember I think the stone read a temp of about 730f. I bought a "repack" of 20 Ibs of Antimo Caputo 00 Pizzeria Flour (Blue Bag) featured here..

http://store.brickovenbaker.com/ingredients/antimo-caputo-00-pizzeria-flour-blue-bag-20-lbs?cPath=31_35

Does that mean the "softer" comment could be turned into a compliment? Hehe


Perhaps  ;D

Get that vertical measurement.  If it is 3" and you can shrink it to 2.5", that will help even more with the top browning.

While you're measuring the gap, I need you to do a test.  With the cheap stone in place, turn the broiler on, close the door, and see if the broiler will stay on for 10 minutes. If your broiler will stay on indefinitely then that gives a few options for stones.

Do you have an infrared thermometer? You're going to want to read surface temps of the stone- top and bottom.


Offline Jordan

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Re: My Neapolitan Progress
« Reply #101 on: January 24, 2012, 10:06:46 PM »
Jordan, Thanks for that link, what an amazing part of History you have found!!

Hey man, thanks! I enjoyed it. Kinda wish I could understand Italian because there's so many good videos out there I just dont understand.. Oh well.

Perhaps  ;D

Get that vertical measurement.  If it is 3" and you can shrink it to 2.5", that will help even more with the top browning.

While you're measuring the gap, I need you to do a test.  With the cheap stone in place, turn the broiler on, close the door, and see if the broiler will stay on for 10 minutes. If your broiler will stay on indefinitely then that gives a few options for stones.

Do you have an infrared thermometer? You're going to want to read surface temps of the stone- top and bottom.

Sorry Scott, I was unable to measure because my tape measure is no where to be found! But, when I get one I will take care of it for you. To answer the other part of your question, if I was to turn the broiler on with a cold oven, it will prob stay on 15-20 min without shutting off. Since I get my stone to about 670f while preheating my oven to 550f, if I turn my broiler on after that, it will stay on for 5 min or so, at least from what I remember. I do have an infrared thermometer.


So... Yesterday I made some dough with the same recipe, but I used a method I picked up from reading some posts around here and from talking to people on the forum.

Dissolve salt in water > Dissolve yeast in salt water > Add All flour at once > Mix till homogenous > Rest for 10 min > Stretch Fold > Rest for 10 min > Stretch Fold > Repeat Stretch Fold / Rest until dough is smooth.

Bulked for about 22 hours. Balled for 4. 26 Hour Fermentation.

The dough had a lot more air trapped in it this time, when it was bulk and I went to ball it, there was bubbles inside the dough that were popping as I balled it. And using on .20g yeast, thats crazy to me.. Tomorrow I will make a batch with .10g.

Some questions I have..

How is it possible that using the same recipe and basically same ambient temp and fermentation time, I got more air in my dough / large bubbles?

Does the amount of yeast you have also matter for the amount of flour you use? Meaning.. If I used 1000g of flour and .10g of yeast will I get the same result of 500g of flour with .10g of yeast (using the same ambient temp, water temp, and fermentation time)? Does this make a difference? Or is the yeast something that doesnt matter due to the quantity of flour you use.

Anyways, my dough pushed out with some pretty big bubbles.. Still kinda curious about this. As I said, I will use .10g tomorrow.. This is very little and Im comfortable with using my 24 hour rise method with a long bulk and a short balled fermentation. I dont really want to shorten my fermentation time, for now I just want to understand the whole yeast thing I guess.

Here's some pictures of my pizzas. Nothing incredible.. My oven is very bad and I cant get it to 700f if my life depended on it. I cant wait to get my WFO..
-Jordan

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: My Neapolitan Progress
« Reply #102 on: January 25, 2012, 01:38:29 PM »

How is it possible that using the same recipe and basically same ambient temp and fermentation time, I got more air in my dough / large bubbles?

Does the amount of yeast you have also matter for the amount of flour you use? Meaning.. If I used 1000g of flour and .10g of yeast will I get the same result of 500g of flour with .10g of yeast (using the same ambient temp, water temp, and fermentation time)? Does this make a difference? Or is the yeast something that doesnt matter due to the quantity of flour you use.
 

Jordan, it's possible to get different sized bubbles in the dough based on how the gluten strength is developed.  I don't know if you are getting more bubbles per se, but you are getting more air in there.  This is because, as dough strength is built, the dough (gluten matrix) can tent up the air that is create by fermentation.  When you fold the dough as oppose to kneading it or mixing it, the gluten strands become stacked in layers.  They are not broken and reformed as what happens during intensive mixing.  At least that's how I imagine it.  A well kneaded and mixed dough always gives me a tighter crumb, ie smaller bubbles.  It's like the action winds the gluten stands tighter and tighter, until you reach a point where it all falls apart. 

Yes the amount of yeast you use relative to the amount of flour does matter.  The hgherthe (baker's) percent of yeast you use relative to the flour amount affects how fast the dough will ferment.  Other factors such as hydration, strength of flour, temperature, and amount of dough also effects how fast dough will ferment.

Chau

Offline scott123

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Re: My Neapolitan Progress
« Reply #103 on: January 25, 2012, 05:00:19 PM »
Jordan, your oven is really not that bad.  Without modding, it's not going to match the results of a WFO, but, until you build a WFO, you might as well make the most of it.

If you can continue doing what you're doing to achieve that 670 pre-heat, along with possibly moving the stone just a tiny bit closer to the broiler, as well as obtain the right stone, you're going to achieve one of the most Neapolitan-ish bakes ever witnessed in an unmodded oven.

The question I keep asking myself, though, is what's the 'right stone?'  Not only is the stone 670, but, since your stone is close to the ceiling, the ceiling is most likely near 670 as well- that's a big part of the success you're achieving- you've got a bright red broiler during the entire bake PLUS you've got a 670 ceiling radiating additional heat down onto the pizza. In order to continue to get good coloration on the top of your pizza with your current bake time, you can't go any lower with the pre-heat temp.  Not a degree.  So the big question is "what stone can you buy that will give you leoparding on the undercrust in about 2.5 (or slightly less) minutes at 670?"  The answer is "I'm not sure."

The problem is that if you get a stone that browns the bottom of the pizza too quickly, you don't have an option to turn down the temperature. If, on the other hand, you buy a stone that doesn't give you enough coloration on the bottom, then modding is your only option. 670 is already pretty hot for an oven.  I know that Marlon (Bakeshack) get's authentic Neapolitan bake times by covering his oven probe and pushing the temp to 790 (along with a freakishly powerful broiler), but as the temperature goes up, I get nervous.  I don't think any of this is dangerous, but it could be hard on the oven.  How much trouble would you be in with other members of your household if you broke the oven?

Salvatore is getting really beautiful undercrust leoparding at 650 with 1.25" soapstone:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,16117.0.html

Soapstone is, imo, too much of a gamble, though.  You could end up with a less conductive piece and not get enough color.

Steel is the answer, but picking the right thickness is going to be tricky. 1/2" steel performs similarly to soapstone, although it's a bit more intense. In a year or two, we'll be able to graph different thicknesses of steel and corresponding bake times/temps, but right now, there's no one working at 670 with steel.  The happy thickness is going to be either 1/4", 3/8" or 1/2".  I know that doesn't narrow it down much, but that's the best I can do at the present moment. If I had to bet on one of these, I'd go with 3/8", but bear in mind, if you overshoot the mark and have a stone that burns the undercrust in 2ish minutes, your only option is to get a thinner plate. If you undershoot it, then it's mod time (maybe a bump to 700)- and if you undershoot it too far, it's either serious modding time (maybe as high as 750) or, again, time for a difference thickness of plate. We could be talking multiple plate purchases and/or modding in order to match the bottom energy transfer with the top.

Offline jeffereynelson

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Re: My Neapolitan Progress
« Reply #104 on: January 25, 2012, 10:29:52 PM »
Scott123

After reading your post I feel like someone needs to buy like four or five 1/8 inch pieces of steel that can be layered to create a single steel sheet. Then you would bake pizzas starting at 550 degrees and move up 25 degrees at a time until say 750. That would be 9 baking temps, and 5 plates sizes, or 45 pizzas. That should be like 1 days work for most people around here haha. Anyways, it would be relatively easy to graph the results after a test like that was conducted. Would definitely have to be someone with an infrared gun, and very good at exactly replicating their doughs to keep that a constant factor. For the sake of science, I would imagine each step would need to be done twice to verify results, so make that 90 pizzas. Volunteers?

Jeff

buceriasdon

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Re: My Neapolitan Progress
« Reply #105 on: January 26, 2012, 06:56:40 AM »
Jeff, Having done just what you speak of I can testify it is not the same as a solid mass of steel, there is too many air gaps between the plates.
Don

Scott123

After reading your post I feel like someone needs to buy like four or five 1/8 inch pieces of steel that can be layered to create a single steel sheet. Then you would bake pizzas starting at 550 degrees and move up 25 degrees at a time until say 750. That would be 9 baking temps, and 5 plates sizes, or 45 pizzas. That should be like 1 days work for most people around here haha. Anyways, it would be relatively easy to graph the results after a test like that was conducted. Would definitely have to be someone with an infrared gun, and very good at exactly replicating their doughs to keep that a constant factor. For the sake of science, I would imagine each step would need to be done twice to verify results, so make that 90 pizzas. Volunteers?

Jeff

Offline jeffereynelson

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Re: My Neapolitan Progress
« Reply #106 on: January 26, 2012, 03:58:40 PM »
Ya seems like you would need to use a some type of a clamp. I mean even a solid steel is layered steel.

Jeff

Offline scott123

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Re: My Neapolitan Progress
« Reply #107 on: January 26, 2012, 06:32:07 PM »
Jeff, I like the testing idea, though- and you wouldn't need 1/8" increments either.  I think 1/4" is fine.  3 plates- 1/4", 1/2" and 3/4".

buceriasdon

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Re: My Neapolitan Progress
« Reply #108 on: January 26, 2012, 07:13:08 PM »
I just remeasured 3 of my 1/4" plates, all were concave on one side the other convex due to the cutting process as well as warped. All varied between .020 to .025 in the center to varied gaps along the permeter using my go no go feeler guages. No matter how they were turned over the gaps would be compounded to .038 gap in the worst case. I suppose one could drill a series of holes around the permenter and use bolts to tighten but that's not possible in the center.
Don

Offline Jordan

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Re: My Neapolitan Progress
« Reply #109 on: January 26, 2012, 10:52:46 PM »
Tonights bake was an incredible success! Here's what I did..

450g Caputo 00 Pizzeria Flour (Datum)
270g h20 (60% hydration)
12.6g Salt (2.8%)
.10g Yeast (.023%)

Made 3 240g balls

Dissolved salt in water (70F)
Dissolved yeast in brine
Gradually added flour while mixing making sure to get rid of any lumps before adding more flour.
Stopped when the dough became homogenous (About 90-95% of the flour was used)
Kneaded for ~30 sec just to get the dough to come together
Rest for 10 min
Kneaded for 3-5 min
Rest for 10 min
Kneaded a couple more times to form soft skin around dough

Bulked at 71F for 22 hours

Balled "Da Michele" style; cutting off a measured portion of dough (240g) and folding the dough into itself to trap air in the ball. Rolled seam side down and smacked down into a lightly floured proofing tray.

Balled at 71F for 3 hours

Preheated my oven to 550F for 1 hour. Turned on the broiler and started dressing my pies.

Dusted the tops of the balls, scrapped them out of the proofing tray and dipped them into some flour.
Pushed the air into the cornicione until the dough disc was big enough to start slapping out.
A couple of gentile slaps.
Stretched onto a pizza pan.
1 pie was fortunate enough to get the remaining DOP San Marzano sauce I had and the other 2 not so fortunate pies had to suffer with Tuttorosso Whole Tomatoes I put through the food mill (Probably the worst tomatoes Ive ever had...)
A dusting of salt and a drizzle of olive oil.
Made sure my broiler was on before I put the pie in.

Once the broiler engaged again, cooked for 1 min. Turned, 1 more minute. Turned, and about 30 sec with the oven open and me lifting the pan up to get the pie closer to broiler. Bake was probably a little over 2 1/2 min.

The dough was so soft and pliable. I could easily fold it up without a problem and the dough was completely cooked (no undercooked portions)

It was the best pizzas I have made to date with out a doubt.. I am very confident in this mixing and kneading routine. And I will further experiment with variations of it without a doubt. I made a video of the three pies I made for you guys to see how supple it was. To be honest, the pictures I took serve no justice in the way the videos do. Enjoy!

Watch in HD!
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xf4yxGemOAo" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xf4yxGemOAo</a>


Here's some pictures from the bake!
Does the last picture look like Im getting close to that da michele clone? haha
-Jordan


Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: My Neapolitan Progress
« Reply #110 on: January 26, 2012, 11:05:38 PM »
Nice work Jordan.  How was the texture of the crust and crumb compared to the texture of da michele's pies as you remember?  Was it at least similar or in the ball park?   

Also when you balled the dough up, how tight did you make each balls?  not tight, semi, or really tight?
How long did you proof the balls for?
How much did they flatten out during the proof?  A little?  A moderate amount? or were they as flat as pancakes?

Chau   

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: My Neapolitan Progress
« Reply #111 on: January 27, 2012, 06:59:22 AM »
Great job Jordan - I would like to see some shots of the dough balls right before you used them for next time.

John

Offline Jordan

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Re: My Neapolitan Progress
« Reply #112 on: January 27, 2012, 01:51:40 PM »
Nice work Jordan.  How was the texture of the crust and crumb compared to the texture of da michele's pies as you remember?  Was it at least similar or in the ball park?   

Also when you balled the dough up, how tight did you make each balls?  not tight, semi, or really tight?
How long did you proof the balls for?
How much did they flatten out during the proof?  A little?  A moderate amount? or were they as flat as pancakes?


The texture was the best for me so far. Nothing compared to Da Michele besides maybe the thickness of the pie itself. I ball like the guys at Da Michele, I dont know how to compare tightness to the traditional mozz ball dough technique but I would assume its a pretty tight ball. The balls were proofed between 3-4 hours, I will shoot for a longer balled fermentation next time since I didnt see close to any signs of over fermentation and pushing the limits interests me since Keste gets away with it, I wonder how it would be at a longer stage of fermentation. They didnt flatten out much, which is another reason why I want to ferment longer (although Im sure theres many variables behind this..) but using only .10g of yeast (.023%) I can postulate 8-10 hours balled would suffice much better at my 71F ambient temp. What are the factors that youre aware of when it comes to the pancake look? Im sure the hydration and amount of gluten built up play a large roll in this. But I would like to hear your thoughts.

Great job Jordan - I would like to see some shots of the dough balls right before you used them for next time.


I will next time for sure John.

Question...

I am really puzzled when it comes to water with dough. I know the Caputo 00 Pizza flour is standard, Italian Marine Salts, Fresh Yeast, DOP Tomatoes from the Campagnia region, ect... But, the water is a wonder to me..

I have been searching on the internet and I have found out the differences between hard and soft water and that answered some of my questions. Apparently the water in Naples is hard water; meaning it contains high carbonates or mineral salts. I am not really sure about the tap in NJ, but for a little background of my area, I live in the town next to the oldest power plant in the nation. To make it short and easy, I dont know if drinking this stuff is smart or not, even though I do it anyways because bottled water is to expensive. I dont want to suffice to buying mineral water for my pizza because thats even more expensive. John told me not to worry about the water, but after reading some of Omids posts, Im starting to see the water could possibly have significance on the product youre making and what youre trying to achieve. This is a quote straight from a reply in Omids thread "And, it is said that salts such as magnesium and calcium indurate the gluten in dough." that is very interesting to me..

I was looking into a filter for my tap water and I found this which isnt that expensive and I dont need to instal it to my filter, its just a dispenser with filters that I can purchase separately.

http://www.amazon.com/PUR-Dispenser-Pitcher-Filter-DS-1800Z/dp/B0006MQCA4/?tag=pizzamaking-20

Since Im using this for pizza and future dough like recipes, Im sure it will be worth it. But! Is it necessary? With this filter design will it make the water softer and not mimic the water in Naples? All in all, I want something that can mimic the hard water of Naples while still being fresh and cost effective.

The tap water here doesnt have that pleasant of a flavor and the bottled water here tastes fresh, but I have read that bottled water isnt the best in terms of it sitting in plastic and reasons of that nature. Is this true? Should I use bottled water? If so, which ones would you guys recommend? To be honest I would love to get this filter dispenser because I can still use my tap water but get a better product. But as I said, would filtering the water be a bad thing for neapolitan pizza?

I would love to hear your thoughts.

Thank you.
-Jordan

Offline scott123

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Re: My Neapolitan Progress
« Reply #113 on: January 27, 2012, 06:26:20 PM »
Jordan, you nailed the dough a week ago.  You can play around with it all you want, but if you really want to rise to the next level, you have to pay attention to Neapolitan pizza's most important ingredient- heat.

Online bakeshack

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Re: My Neapolitan Progress
« Reply #114 on: January 27, 2012, 07:59:12 PM »
Jordan, I agree with Scott.  You should not let yourself get distracted with thoughts about water being different, etc. although, I admire and respect your passion.  At this level, focusing your energy and passion on heat and dough management techniques will improve your end product by leaps and bounds. 

Marlon

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: My Neapolitan Progress
« Reply #115 on: January 28, 2012, 03:09:23 AM »
Jordan, last week's crumb looked really nice.  But this week's finished pies definitely look like they have the right flop and fold in the video though.  I was going to ask you too compare this weeks texture with last weeks, but I read that you thought this weeks crust was your best yet.  

Wanted to say thanks for putting up the video.  I also want to note that regardless of temps use, this week's pies are made with 100% caputo 00 baked at 2min and 30 seconds and they were still tender.  I'm willing to bet another 30 seconds of baking wouldn't have changed the texture much if any.   I keep reading all of these posts saying you can't bake caputo for more than X minutes or it'll get tough, but I really wonder how many people have really done any tests much less extensive testing or if they just keep repeating what others say.  ???

Having said that though, I do agree with Scott and Marlon and will say that a pie baked in 60 seconds in a wfo should have a very different texture than if you were to bake the same dough in 3 minutes using a home oven.   Nonetheless, you are doing very well with what you have and ought to be commended for that.  

Yes, I agree a longer ball period is in order.  You won't get much negative impact on the longer fermentation especially b/c you are using CY.  The dough may just be a bit easier to open compared to a 3-4 hr balled dough.

Jordan, though I haven't done the water test with NP dough side by side, I have made plenty of NP, hybrid, and NY styled pizzas using both tap water and bottled water and don't notice much difference.  My tap water in NM is hardened with minerals and from what I have read, the minerals aid yeast activity.  But bottle water works fine too.  If using tap water though and very small amounts of CY, I have not noticed the chlorine to have any negative effects on yeast activity as feared by some.

As far as the dough flattening out like pancakes, it's mostly a byproduct of gluten strength or lack there of and at what point in fermntation the balls are made.  I haven't made up my mind as to which dough makes for a better NP pie, a flat one or one with more strength and air/volume.

Chau
« Last Edit: January 28, 2012, 03:14:54 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Matthew

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Re: My Neapolitan Progress
« Reply #116 on: January 28, 2012, 03:20:48 AM »
The dough balls should flatten out but not to that point.  This is one of the main reasons that you see Neapolitan pizzeria's overcrowd the dough boxes to the point where the dough balls become a square.  On your next batch, fill up the dough box & see what happens.  Based on that you can determine if you need to mix for a little bit longer. We use European size dough boxes at the restaurant & put 12 in each box.

Matt

Offline BurntFingers

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Re: My Neapolitan Progress
« Reply #117 on: January 28, 2012, 12:18:36 PM »
Regarding H2O filtering.  Most carbon block filters only remove sediment, chlorine, cysts and odors.  The mineral content remains in solution and the water is still hard.   To remove the hardness you need to use reverse osmosis filtering, electrolysis  or use a distillation process.  Depending on the aquifer your water comes through will determine the hardness in NJ.  We have our well tested every few years and the results have not changed, with Calcium and some Iron.  Our household well is in the Englishtown Aquifer here in Jackson.  There are so many aquifers in coastal NJ.  Many have salt water intrusion and have been replaced by City water.
My 2cents on the topic.

Offline salvatoregianpaolo

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Re: My Neapolitan Progress
« Reply #118 on: January 28, 2012, 01:53:09 PM »
but I really wonder how many people have really done any tests much less extensive testing or if they just keep repeating what others say.  ???


Chau,

I have found there to be a DRASTIC difference between pies baked 90 seconds to those baked for even only 15 seconds more.  I feel anything approaching two minutes is never going to achieve the true texture of pizza napoletana.  In fact, I have set the target to keep bake times under 90 seconds, regardless of top coloration.  I have come to the realization I will gladly sacrifice a few leopard spots for the proper tenderness.  (Until I get my WFO, that is! :))

Salvatore

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: My Neapolitan Progress
« Reply #119 on: January 28, 2012, 04:15:33 PM »
Chau,

I have found there to be a DRASTIC difference between pies baked 90 seconds to those baked for even only 15 seconds more.  I feel anything approaching two minutes is never going to achieve the true texture of pizza napoletana.  In fact, I have set the target to keep bake times under 90 seconds, regardless of top coloration.  I have come to the realization I will gladly sacrifice a few leopard spots for the proper tenderness.  (Until I get my WFO, that is! :))

Salvatore

I agree with you when/IF you are talking about the same dough formulation.  When you bake the same dough at different temps and therefore time, you will notice a difference.   Drastic and which is better is subjective and arguable.   What I am saying is this.....suppose you have 2 doughs made with the same ingredients and techniques but only vary in hydration ratio, say 60% versus 68%.   I can guarantee you that they will not produce the same result in a 60 second bake in a WFO by the same pizza maker.   The higher hydration dough may actually be better (and this is subjective) at the 90s or even the  2 minute mark.   All Im saying is that you can adjust the dough formulation (and method) to produce tender and good results at much longer bakes than 60 seconds.  

Now, it may be that caputo 00 pizzeria flour with the right formulation and technique will produce superior results and produce authentic NP pizza at 60 seconds or less, this I do not know as I don't believe I have eaten the "real" thing yet..    All I am saying is that caputo pizzeria flour doesn't necessarily produce "tough" results in a bake time beyond 90 sec.  I have had a tender crumb (not made by myself) in the 3-4min bake range in a wfo.   I also occassionally make a loaf of country bread using caputo 00 pizzeria flour that has a soft and tender crumb, and the loaf is baked for 40min and no toughness.

Chau
« Last Edit: February 02, 2012, 07:11:22 AM by Jackie Tran »


 

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