My Neapolitan Progress

[scott123]

Don, perhaps the technology has changed in recent years, but cleaning cycles are traditionally timed sensor bypassed bakes (bottom element) with a lock that hooks in place once the peak temp is reached. I can't picture an oven at the moment that can bake and broil at the same time, but I'm sure they exist.  I would say that 90% of electric ovens can't bake and broil at the same time, though.

[buceriasdon]

Scott, Yes I agree with baking being one or the other but to obtain 800 some degrees and I would think to do it evenly would require both elements to be really sucking the watts. I guess I better google some.
Don
http://www.ehow.com/how-does_4621218_self-cleaning-oven-work.html

[Jordan]

Understood, thank you Scott. But I have read some self cleaning cycles reach 950, which is very close to 1000, so what might have seemed a bit hyperbole was just me rounding up. But After reading the article Don posted, I have more of an understanding of what the self cleaning cycle is, which is very important.

So what would you recommend? Being that this whole self cleaning cycle thing doest seem to be the "best" idea.. What are some people doing to get such tasty looking neapolitans? Seriously, some of the pies I see on this forum look like the real deal and they come from home ovens!

Thanks!

-Jordan

[scott123]

The bulk of the forum members doing such tasty looking Neapolitan pizzas are making them in wood fired ovens that they have either built or purchased. One member has been able to do Neapolitan pizza in a modified Weber charcoal grill and a couple members have done Neapolitan in a home oven, but as I said earlier, it really depends on your oven.

The first thing you should do is take a few photos of your broiler element from different angles and post them here.  The thickness and arrangement of the coils will go a long way in predicting if your broiler can achieve leoparding. If there's a chance you can get leoparding without a cleaning cycle, I would definitely try that first.

[bobwatts]

550 degree oven. Cast iron pizza pan. Let the pan stay in the oven at least 10 - 15 min. after it comes to temp. You can pull the pan out and actually build the pizza directly on it - do it as quickly as possible - this starts your dough cooking even before you have the rest of the toppings on. Have your two racks spaced so that one is in the bottom 1/3rd and the other in the upper 1/3rd. Start you prepared pizza on the bottom rack, then 1/2 way through the cook time, move it to the top rack and rotate.

I have seen people talk about using the cleaning cycle, but that would make me very nervous. You can't duplicate the brick oven capabilities in your home oven and it seems dangerous to try.

Jordan, I love your spunk! You are working hard to create the Neapolitan pizza and I applaud your efforts. Let me assure you that you can make a wonderful pizza right in your oven. You can't make what I can in my WFO (as I can not make in my WFO what you can in your home oven), but that is irrelevant. Make your pie and make it the best anyone has ever had. Keep practicing, it will happen for you.

[Jordan]

While on my trip to Europe, I spent a week in Italy and fortunately was able to visit Naples to eat at L'Antica Pizzeria Da Michele.

I was able to score a nice video of them preparing a Margherita! Enjoy!

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoQHkuNLDlY&amp;list=UUw60TkAG5pQ-DTMDC-9_utg&amp;index=1&amp;feature=plcp" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoQHkuNLDlY&amp;list=UUw60TkAG5pQ-DTMDC-9_utg&amp;index=1&amp;feature=plcp</a>

[Pizza Napoletana]

While on my trip to Europe, I spent a week in Italy and fortunately was able to visit Naples to eat at L'Antica Pizzeria Da Michele.

I was able to score a nice video of them preparing a Margherita! Enjoy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoQHkuNLDlY&list=UUw60TkAG5pQ-DTMDC-9_utg&index=1&feature=plcp

I esteem the distinguishing characteristics of Da Michele's dough: supple and abiding. Thank you so much for the video. I also enjoyed your electric guitar performance. Good day!

[Jordan]

I hope everyone enjoyed the Da Michele video I posted!

I recently made dough using the Roberto Caporuscio recipe

3.75 pounds Tipo "00" flour
1 liter warm water
0.1 ounce fresh yeast
2.1 ounces salt

Used the hand mixing/kneading method Pizziaolo Pasquale uses, 1 hour bulk fermentation, and a little less than 2 days fermentation at room temperature..

But, I completely misread that the amount of yeast is for "same-day" dough, and this amount of yeast gets your dough ready in 6 hours.. Its actually basically the same recipe as the VPN recipe in there "Disciplinare" which states you should bulk rise 2 hours, and ball rise for 5-6 hours at room temperature.. Which is not the kinda fermentation I was going for at the time... So, close to 2 days, I could tell my dough was over risen and there was huge bubbles forming in my dough, and today which is almost the third day, my balls of dough are like some crazy monster! haha

So for 1700g of flour, I used close to 3g of yeast, which I think isnt good for long fermentation. And I learned that the hard way.. Since the dough is kinda out of the question for pizza right now Im practicing my slapping technique then turning the dough into some delicious garlic knots! YUM!

Unfortunately that happened, but I suppose for a 3 day fermentation I will need to use way less fresh yeast.. But how much is "way less"? Also, the VPN states there should be a 2 hour bulk rise, but Ive read and have been suggested to work with a longer bulk rise, even 24 hours could be necessary which is what Roberto Caporuscio does at Keste (Im sure the recipe he stated isnt the one he actually uses at the restaraunt, considering most pizzerias use the 55Ib bag of caputo..) So some questions...

Longer bulk rise or longer "balled" rise?

How much yeast for a longer fermentation?

I know theres so many variables, and I know the VPN regulations arent a Law, but they are guidelines, and very official guidelines at that; especially for a new pizza maker like myself. The VPN "recipe" matches up with the Roberto Caporuscio recipe and many others very closely, which brings me to the conclusion that due to these people owning "Neapolitan Pizzerias" that needed to be certified by the VPN or APN, they adjusted there recipe to be copasetic with the regulations. And for a restaurant its probably necessary for the dough to be produced so quickly (ex. 6 hours) but I have read that great dough should be fermented for a way longer period of time for the proper hydration of the dough (any many other reasons Im sure).

The next time I make dough I will def experiment with less yeast, but If anyone has a number of how much I should use I would greatly appreciate it for sure!

And next time I will make significantly less dough, since Im just in experiment stages now I dont wanna waste!

Also, Im strongly considering in the next couple months purchasing a WFO for my backyard! I will be doing some intense research into my choice of oven and ever learning as much as I can about the WFO prior to any moves I make, but I am very interested in this oven Omid suggested me

http://www.fornoclassico.com/forno-piccolo

Its a smaller scale oven that makes one pizza at a time that is somewhat similar to the primavera by forno bravo.

Do you guys think this is a good move for me? Its a cheaper option in terms of what looks like a "higher" quality brick oven, and Im attracted to it because (after Omid pointed it out) has a brick dome which the primavera doesnt.. So for $300 more I can have a hand made brick oven as apposed to one made of all terra-cotta and poured into a mold.

What do you guys think?

Thanks!

-Jordan

[Jet_deck]

I also like the look of that oven.  I probably won't commit to it, until Omid checks to see that the dome is the correct height along with the opening.  I'm not good enough to cook more than one at time, anyway.

[dellavecchia]

Jordan - I urge you try the recipe and workflow as I described in a previous post:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17003.msg165691.html#msg165691

This will give you a baseline to make informed decisions from. This dough is an 18-24 hour dough total depending on the room temperature, which will give you a good flavor profile and an understanding of how the yeast responds. It also uses a small, but not minuscule, amount of yeast, so you can see the development over a period of time.

In my opinion, 2 and 3 day room temperature ferments are unnecessary and do not give you gains over, say a 24 or 36 hour dough. In fact, without the proper knowledge behind the development of gluten within a dough, you may actually be doing serious damage to the final product without even knowing the cause. There are those, such as TXCraig who do go over this time frame but do so with the utmost in dough making expertise. Start with an easy recipe, and go from there.

John

[Jordan]

Thanks John!

I have been learning a lot in the past couple of days, especially about how yeast works and the process of making dough.

I will for sure try this recipe! Its the standard, so it follows very closely the recipe I have usually been doing, but I will scale it down and for sure I need to down the amount of yeast I use because I think 3g is way to much for the length of fermentation I would like.  5-6 hour dough is just not what Im looking for, a day sounds much better in terms of the outcome of the dough, from what Ive learned at least. Im really interested in buying a WFO, so I would love to start learning about that. I see theres a lot on this website I havent explored yet, so I shall do that asap. I will keep studying the disciplinare and test out my dough! Some recent purchases I have made are..

.01g Scale
Infrared Thermometer
Digital Thermometer
Room Thermostat
Pizza Dough Proofing Box & Lid
Dough Scraper/Cutter
Trapani Sicilian Sea Salt

This stuff seemed to be stuff I just needed to get.  After learning to so much about the importance of everything when it comes to dough, I will use the Sicilian sea salt and bottled water for my next dough test.  Then I will have a high quality flour, salt, filtered water, and fresh yeast. 

Question...

Is the "autolyse" completely necessary?

I noticed a lot of people dont do it, but I have read a lot about it, and its "importance"..

Ciao!

-Jordan

[scott123]

Also, Im strongly considering in the next couple months purchasing a WFO for my backyard! I will be doing some intense research into my choice of oven and ever learning as much as I can about the WFO prior to any moves I make, but I am very interested in this oven Omid suggested me

http://www.fornoclassico.com/forno-piccolo

Its a smaller scale oven that makes one pizza at a time that is somewhat similar to the primavera by forno bravo.

Do you guys think this is a good move for me?

My research on WFOs is still a bit preliminary, but, from what I know now, I'd wager to say that the dome is too high and the door is too big.

[dellavecchia]

Thanks John!

I have been learning a lot in the past couple of days, especially about how yeast works and the process of making dough.

I will for sure try this recipe! Its the standard, so it follows very closely the recipe I have usually been doing, but I will scale it down and for sure I need to down the amount of yeast I use because I think 3g is way to much for the length of fermentation I would like.  5-6 hour dough is just not what Im looking for, a day sounds much better in terms of the outcome of the dough, from what Ive learned at least.

You are very welcome Jordan. A point to consider is that the amount of yeast in a recipe is not the defining factor on the length of time it takes for the dough to develop. Other variables, such as temperature, salt, mixing time, and flour type have impact as well. I am looking forward to seeing your results.

John

[salvatoregianpaolo]

Jordan,

In my experience as a bread maker, I have found the autolyse technique indispensable when baking bread, but not necessary with pizza dough.  They are two very different animals.

Salvatore

[bakeshack]

Autolyse is an excellent technique which can benefit any dough (pizza and bread).  Of course, those who strictly stick to the traditional way of making pizza will tell you otherwise but it does not mean the dough made with autolyse will be an inferior dough.  It's all about experimenting and finding the best possible workflow which gives you the best results.  There are more critical factors in the dough making process as mentioned by John above in his post which you should focus on.

Also, when you used the 3gr of fresh yeast with 1700 gr of flour, at what temp did the dough bulk ferment?  I am quite sure that amount of yeast (0.1%) should have reached at least 24 hrs bulk ferment without over fermenting unless the temp was way too hot.

[bakeshack]

Autolyse will especially benefit you if you don't use a mixer in developing your dough.

[Jordan]

I have read about applying the autolyse to your dough, but I have not read about anyone from naples doing this. But, it is worth a try for sure.

But, how sure are you about the whole "Autolyse will especially benefit you if you don't use a mixer in developing your dough." If this isnt a common practice in Naples, than if your mixing correctly, shouldnt your dough be developed proper regardless? What exactly does the autolyse do that its a step in some peoples dough making technique. I have read that it gives time to let the water hydrate the flour while resting (the most common autolyse resting time I have read about is 20 min) correct?

I have also read about some people experimenting with longer bulk rises (longer than 2 hours) and I would like to know what benefits this has on the final product. I have yet to let my dough bulk rise longer than 1 hour, so next time I will try the VPN "rules" and go for a 2 hour bulk rise at room temperature.

When I get my salt in the mail which should be this monday, I will try making another dough and I will calculate everything and post it including pictures for you guys to see my results, but also before I make this dough I would like to know more about the autolyse, bulk fermentation times, and balled fermentation times. Thanks for any help!

And Also! I have some pics of my visit to L'Antica Pizzeria Da Michele! Enjoy!

[Jordan]

More!

[Jordan]

and more!

[bakeshack]

Thanks for the Da Michele pics.  They are very inspiring!

With regards to the autolyse, they don't use it in Naples because it was developed and popularized by a French baker named, Raymond Calvel.    Autolyse benefits you especially if you don't use a mixer to develop your dough because this method hydrates the flour at is maximum, prepares and relaxes the gluten in the dough making it much more extensible, thus, making the manual kneading process much easier.  This method basically gives you a head start in the development of the dough, which means that you do not have to knead as much to get to the "point of pasta" as per Omid. 

At the end of the day, there are so many ways to develop the dough and only you can decide which one works best for you through extensive practice and experimentation. 

Good luck and looking forward to your results.