Author Topic: My Neapolitan Progress  (Read 27164 times)

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Online Pete-zza

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Re: My Neapolitan Progress
« Reply #40 on: January 08, 2012, 02:41:47 PM »
Jordan,

I do not ever recall reading or hearing that autolyse is used in the context of Neapolitan stlye doughs, much as bakeshack noted. Autolysis came out of French baking. If you do an Advanced forum search using my forum name (Pete-zza) and the keywords autolyse (or autolysis) and Calvel (the father of the autolyse method), you will get about four pages of hits within which I believe I addressed all of your questions on that method, either directly of through the inclusion of links, and including references to materials from Prof. Calvel's book The Taste of Bread.

Peter


Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: My Neapolitan Progress
« Reply #41 on: January 08, 2012, 08:57:58 PM »
Autolyse is an excellent technique which can benefit any dough (pizza and bread).  Of course, those who strictly stick to the traditional way of making pizza will tell you otherwise but it does not mean the dough made with autolyse will be an inferior dough.  It's all about experimenting and finding the best possible workflow which gives you the best results.  There are more critical factors in the dough making process as mentioned by John above in his post which you should focus on.

+1.  Bakeshake is correct.  It is a bread making technique but dough is dough, and either bread or pizza dough can benefit from the technique.  It is necessary?  No, but it does help develop the gluten and will reduce your knead times.  It is one of many techniques you can use to develop the dough.

Jordan - thanks for the pictures of Da Michele.  In your own words and with as much detail as you can remember, can you describe the crust and crumb for me?
Was there any crisp or crunch to the exterior at all, even initially?
How soft or chewy is the crust overall?
Do you recall if the crust got chewier or dry out as the pizza cooled?  Was the crust leathery after cooling?
Is the crust flavorful?

Thanks,
Chau

Offline Jordan

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Re: My Neapolitan Progress
« Reply #42 on: January 09, 2012, 11:23:42 AM »
Chau, this will be hard for me, but I will try my best. And I get asked these questions about Da Michele almost ever day. But, for you I will try my best!

So, the crust/crumb. I'll refer to it as the cornicione. Close your eyes and imaging a fresh cooking pita bread. Puffy and light and a slight tang of sour. Don't focus on the fact that it's pita bread, just imagine the pocket it creates when it's baked. Imagine fluffy and light. This "crust" has little to no doughy qualities whatsoever. It's incredible because neapolitan pizza is so thin and when you have the real deal you could imagine seeing it infront of you and it being a cracker with toppings, but it is the complete opposite. It is a heavenly creation that made me understand instantly why this pizza is a phenomenon and the reason behind me coming back to the states and trying to learn and understand this art.

No crisp, it is easily foldable. You don't even had to try to fold it, and this pizza needs to be eaten with a knife and fork. Although I tried my best to cut it into wedges and attack it like a normal slice, it just doesn't work! This pizza is also so easy to cut through, even the crappy achient dull butter knives they give you can slice through this thing with ease. In the states we need a hacksaw to cut into some of our pies..

The cornicione is chewy but not in a "doughy" way.. It's like the perfect balance of everything. As I said the crust isn't crispy and cracker like, so the only other way to describe it is by saying that it had some chew, but "chewy" isn't the word. The whole pizza is extremely soft. Like its incredible, theres actually a picture of my holding the cornicione in between my fingers, and that's actually me squeezing the cornicione and there's nothing inside but air. Soft and airy are the words for sure.

The second pizza I got was to take away for the train ride to florence and I didn't touch the pie till I got the the train which was about a 10 min walk, plus 5 min to get situated on the train and I was walking through the streets in the winter, probably 40-45 deg f. I would say total time before I examined this pizza was 20 min, which is way longer than the 20 sec I waited to dig into my first pie! Haha! The pizza never dried out. It was coated in oil from the mozz and the finish. I couldn't believe it when I found out they use soybean oil?!? That's crazy talk!! Does anyone know what brand they use by the way? Anywho, the pizza did get a little tough from sitting out in the cold. It wasn't as good as fresh when it came to texture but the flavor was still incredible! And obviously fresh cooked pizza right from a WFO is going to be better no question about it! 

The pizza had an incredible cornicione as described early and the flavor is basically what was said in the beginning of this.. Slight tang. It's also a salty pizza and that just might be from the mozz and the Parmesan on top, but I think the dough was quite salty, salty in a good way that is..

I really only have great things to say about my two da Michele pies! This is actually the style of Neapolitan ive been trying to mimic, so I would appreciate if anyone knows some more about this pie that you can share! Thanks! And Chau, I hope this helped you get an understanding of the legendary Margherita at da Michele! If you or anyone else has questions on my visit, please feel free to ask! Enjoy!
-Jordan

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: My Neapolitan Progress
« Reply #43 on: January 09, 2012, 11:47:59 AM »
Thank you very much Jordan.  Finally, someone who can describe a crust with good detail.  The best description I've read so far of an authentic NP pizza.  Love your description of the chew factor and the ability to cut it fairly easily with a dull knife.  It reminded me of this video posted by Omid?
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FhydTkxEpI&amp;sns=em" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FhydTkxEpI&amp;sns=em</a>



Cheers,
Chau
« Last Edit: January 09, 2012, 11:54:24 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: My Neapolitan Progress
« Reply #44 on: January 09, 2012, 11:48:45 AM »
Jordan,

Was there any crispness at all to the outermost layer of the cornice of the pie you ate there - if only a paper thin layer? If you squeezed the cornice, would there be any cracking no matter how fine or delicate the cracks or would it give to the pressure with no cracking at all?

Thanks,
Craig
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: My Neapolitan Progress
« Reply #45 on: January 09, 2012, 11:58:18 AM »
I have read about applying the autolyse to your dough, but I have not read about anyone from naples doing this. But, it is worth a try for sure.

But, how sure are you about the whole "Autolyse will especially benefit you if you don't use a mixer in developing your dough."

I experimented with "autolyse" type techniques quite a bit several years ago, and my personal belief is that it does not accomplish anything meaningful (caveat: I can only speak with respect to total fermentation time > 24 hours).

CL
I love pigs. They convert vegetables into bacon.

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: My Neapolitan Progress
« Reply #46 on: January 09, 2012, 12:11:54 PM »
Thank you very much for that elaborate description Jordan. Did you happen to time the bake?

John

Offline salvatoregianpaolo

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Re: My Neapolitan Progress
« Reply #47 on: January 09, 2012, 12:20:52 PM »
Jordan,

Very good description.  I was just there in December, and left with a completely different understanding of pizza napoletana than I had previously believed.  From looking at nothing but pictures, and visiting many so-called Neapolitan Pizza restaurants here in the US, I had the belief the defining characteristic of the pizza was a leopard-spotted and charred crust.  (Of course, along with the other basic tenets)  After visiting Da Michele and Gino Sorbillo, however, I truly UNDERSTOOD what they mean by tenderness of crust.  Now, for me, that is the defining characteristic.  The suppleness, which I think is a more accurate word, was remarkable. 

Sognando d'Italia,
Salvatore


Offline Jordan

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Re: My Neapolitan Progress
« Reply #48 on: January 09, 2012, 12:26:07 PM »
Thank you very much Jordan.  Finally, someone who can describe a crust with good detail.  The best description I've read so far of an authentic NP pizza.  Love your description of the chew factor and the ability to cut it fairly easily with a dull knife.  It reminded me of this video posted by Omid?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FhydTkxEpI&sns=em


Thanks so much for the kind words! Please feel free to ask away!
Chau, look at the 0:08 mark of the video when the slice in his hand is completely goopy and the knife is in the other hand.. Well, thats basically what this pizza is like... The pizza is very "goopy", not stiff at all when you try cutting a wedge and holding it, if just flops over itself. And the knives there are possibly the worst knives in the history of cutlery.. They are worse than the butter knives you use at home to butter your toast. So, imagine how easily this pizza must be to cut through. Cliche, but "its like a warm knife cutting through butter" very similar indeed.

Craig, I have been reading a lot of your posts and looking at your pies and I must say they look absolutely delicious! I am happy you decided to chime in this thread, and I am glad you told me about your experience with autolyse. I am aware that it is not common practice in naples, but Dellavecchia has told me that Da Michele does an autolyse, so Im tempted to try it. And I heard it makes your dough kneading time significantly shorter, but I dont know if this is proven. Since I do all my mixing and kneading by hand, its difficult for me to come to a conclusion on whats the best possible technique. I dont want to keep wasting dough, even though I know experimenting is all the fun, but there is a lot that can go wrong with simply altering 1 step in your dough making procedure..

In regards to your question about the cornicione. You can see in my pictures posted on the bottom of pg 2. that my 2nd pie, the one that was in the box had a very charred cornicione on one side. So I hope I can answer your question based on this.. When I saw this charr, I wondered if this would be disgusting and burnt and too crispy, like burning bread. I was mistaken. It was the most delicious bite of pizza Ive ever had in my life! The sauce was covering my last bite with mozz oozing around the charr. The oil dripped into the hole of the last bite and it was just fantastic. Something a WFO could only produce without there being a disgusting burnt flavor.  Im really trying my hardest to remember if there was any crisp, but even the charred parts were easily foldable and soft.  And to clear things up, the cornicione was not paper thing. The pizza itself was very very thin, actually if you were to hold the sides of the cornicione and lift the pizza up, you would see the center of the pie sink down, but it wont break. Its like they have it down to a science of how far to stretch the pie to its limits before it bakes.  But, the cornicione was a thick pocket of air that was a "crown" around the pie. It wasnt a blown up as some of the other pies I see. Even omids beautiful pies have an incredible rise or "oven spring" if you will on his cornicione. I would love to have one of omids pies.. haha, but thats besides the point. It was not thin in comparison to the rest of the pie at all. When squeezing the cornicione, it didnt crack or show any crispiness. It simply just felt soft. The softest dough Ive ever felt. Have you ever had a pie with a huge airbubble in it? Did you squeeze the crumb in that area? Did you cut through it to see how it looks on the inside? Well, thats the cornicione, but imagine the whole entire rim of the pie being like that, but not over risen and charred all at the same time. You guys call it leoparding when the airbubbles in the cornicione charr right? I really hope this helped!

-Jordan
-Jordan

Offline Jordan

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Re: My Neapolitan Progress
« Reply #49 on: January 09, 2012, 12:36:55 PM »
Thank you very much for that elaborate description Jordan. Did you happen to time the bake?


No I didnt, unfortunately. But, I did get a video of them preparing the pie. Not sure if you guys saw it earlier in my thread, but I sneaked it in there! Heres the link! And I would recommend watching it in HD, I actually got it in 1080p or you can click "Original" which is the best quality, and make it full screen so you can see everything this maestro is doing!
I would say under 70-80 seconds. But yet again, I dont know for sure.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoQHkuNLDlY" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoQHkuNLDlY</a>


salvatoregianpaolo, I was actually there this december as well! I was on a 3 week trip to Europe in which I spent about a week in Italy. Only a couple hours in Naples, but I got to try the real deal, which is the most important! I would love to go back and really see what these guys do and study, it would help me more especially with my knowledge I gain every day from this forum. Suppleness is the perfect word. When watching my video, see how gentle he is with the dough.. He isnt slamming it down while doing the slap technique, just gentle.. And he doesnt work the dough much at all. At da michele (you can see this in the video) they push the dough out to probably a 8-10in diameter, dress it up, slide it to the peel, and really STRETCH it out. Probably to a 14in diameter! I know it sounds big, but trust me, this was the biggest pizza I had in Italy. I thought they would be small, but my 2 da michele pies were very overwhelming in size compared to what I have read before trying the real deal.  Also, as you said, I didnt notice too much leoparding. And the crust was as tender as can be. True perfection in my eyes. But yet again, you guys on the forum make some great looking pies that I have yet to try! I hope this helps!

And please let me know what you think of the video! I was very happy they let me get so close to take it!
-Jordan


Online Pete-zza

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Re: My Neapolitan Progress
« Reply #50 on: January 09, 2012, 12:42:20 PM »
Jordan,

My recollection is that the oil that is sometimes used is sunflower oil, as Marco (pizzanapoletana) mentions in Reply 24 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,656.msg11520/topicseen.html#msg11520.

As to the autolyse, I have read that a riposo is sometimes used at the end of the dough knead, which some people may refer to as autolyse, but I have not read of the classic autolyse being used as conceived by Prof. Calvel. But, there is no harm in trying autolyse, or even another form of rest period that is not technically an autolyse, to see if it helps.

Peter

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: My Neapolitan Progress
« Reply #51 on: January 09, 2012, 12:52:38 PM »
Jordan, not sure if you saw this or not but I made this in the home oven awhile ago.  Does this pie have any qualities of a NP pie?

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vl3Xdh14NHc" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vl3Xdh14NHc</a>

Offline salvatoregianpaolo

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Re: My Neapolitan Progress
« Reply #52 on: January 09, 2012, 12:54:38 PM »
Jordan,

Yes!  Another good point:  the pies were much larger than I anticipated, as well, both at Da Michele and Gino Sorbillo.  Yet as big as they were, they were so light on the stomach.  

Regarding Autolyse, Peter knows a lot more about it than I do, as I'm pretty sure he's read Prof. Calvel's book, but what I've garnered from Jeffrey Hamlman, who was a student and proponent of Calvel's methods, is the true benefit to autolyse lies in it's ability to shorten knead times.  This "minimizes oxidation and loss of carotenoids," resulting in "greater volume, a better flavor, a creamier and more open crumb structure, and more pronounced cuts." (Bread: A Baker's Book of Techniques, Hamelman)  The real benefit, as I see it, is helping the baker to avoid over-mixing the dough.  Since you are hand-mixing, it would be very difficult for you to do that.  Of course, experimentation is best, and the only real way to find out what works for each and every one of us!

Grazie,
Salvatore

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Re: My Neapolitan Progress
« Reply #53 on: January 09, 2012, 01:09:59 PM »
Jordan,

My recollection is that the oil that is sometimes used is sunflower oil, as Marco (pizzanapoletana) mentions in Reply 24 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,656.msg11520/topicseen.html#msg11520.


Pete, in the quote it says "sunflower oil", in the link it says "soya seed oil" and if you google "Da Michele Soy Oil" you will see in the 2nd or 3rd link a NY Times article from 1989 where in the first column of paragraphs it says they finish there pie with a mixture of olive and "soybean oil".. So, which one is it? Is there a brand out there that you or anyone you know uses that is a "mixture" of olive and soybean oils? What is Soya seed oil? Ive never heard of this..  Confused.. Also, I will def try the autolyse for sure! But what is this "riposo" you speak of? Thanks pete!

Chau, wow.. that pie looked incredible. The tear was what did it for me! I live at 817 tappan st. forked river, NJ.. Feel free to ship one of those my way! haha but, to answer your question, yes and no. The pie looked incredible, but the cornicione isnt quite there from what I see before and even after you tear the pie. Im sure if you through that bad boy in a 900f wfo it would spring up in a heart beat and charr like a dream. When you finish tearing it, and eat the slice, I notice the pie has some sort of stiff quality, not stiff as a bad thing, but neapolitan pizza is floppy and wont hold that shape you were able to achieve prior to taking that bite. I hope this answers your question. But, all in all. I would need to taste to make true judgements.

Salvatore, Im happy you posted some quotes because for someone hand mixing like me if def makes me want to try this technique! Thank you sir. And as for your comment "Yet as big as they were, they were so light on the stomach" I remember having a conversation in regards to this light feeling and its incredible the amount of information Omid was able to give me on this subject. Its the way the dough is handled at all stages of its creation. From the mixing to the slapping out. Also as you guys know, which I just learned, some mixers (mostly the planetary mixers) are too fast and dont work at slow enough RPM's as lets say the fork mixer used at da michele, so the dough really suffers from being over worked in the mixing and kneading stages in the machine. Apparently it also gets heated up, which is very bad! And it causes bleaching of the dough. Which I am not an expert on, but I am aware of it being a bad thing. Of course with knowledge of mixers and the way dough works you could probably use any mixer and get a decent product. Its like Jimmy Hendrix picking up a toys R us brand guitar, obviously he wont be able to play to his full abilities because he wont have his original tools (ex. a slow RPM fork mixer) but his knowledge, skill, passion, and feel for what he loves will produce a product that is still golden.
-Jordan

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: My Neapolitan Progress
« Reply #54 on: January 09, 2012, 01:26:16 PM »
Thanks Jordan, that was just a pie I was messing around with in the home oven.  I wasn't expecting you too much.  I agree, the dough may act very different in a wfo.  The stiffness may also be a difference of thickness factor and size of pizza as well.  In the home oven, I'm only able to make a 10-11" pie at most because the size of my broiler.  I would love to travel to Naples or anywhere in the states to have the real deal someday.  Until then I can only keep experimenting.  ;D

Good luck in your quest.
Chau

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: My Neapolitan Progress
« Reply #55 on: January 09, 2012, 01:36:33 PM »
Chau - I have to say that is an amazing pie. I did not see that until now - incredible Da Michele clone.

John

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Re: My Neapolitan Progress
« Reply #56 on: January 09, 2012, 02:44:15 PM »
Jordan,

I completely forgot about the soya seed oil. Soya seed oil/soy oil is soybean oil. In the U.S., it is commonly called vegetable oil. It is very popular among pizza operators, including the big chains, because it is so readily available and just about the cheapest oil you can find. Sunflower oil on the other hand is much harder to find at the retail level. None of the stores near me carry it.

Riposo is a rest period that usually takes place at the end of the knead, as Marco mentions at Reply 59 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1415.msg15195.html#msg15195. It is not a classic autolyse because the dough at that stage has just about all of the ingredients in it although sometimes the salt might be added late in the process, especially if the flour is a strong flour. Evelyne Slomon also discusses her understanding of riposo and its origins in the next to the last paragraph in her post at Reply 16 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3873.msg32525.html#msg32525. Bill/SFNM is also a big user of riposo, as he mentions at Reply 225 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg147521/topicseen.html#msg147521. See, also, Bill's quoted material in Reply 341 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1053.msg12210/topicseen.html#msg12210.

Peter

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: My Neapolitan Progress
« Reply #57 on: January 09, 2012, 09:55:46 PM »
Chau - I have to say that is an amazing pie. I did not see that until now - incredible Da Michele clone.

John

Thanks John.  That was during the time we talked about doing a DM clone.  I gave it a few tries then got side tracked with other experiments.

Offline Jordan

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Re: My Neapolitan Progress
« Reply #58 on: January 09, 2012, 10:30:38 PM »
Jordan,

I completely forgot about the soya seed oil. Soya seed oil/soy oil is soybean oil. In the U.S., it is commonly called vegetable oil. It is very popular among pizza operators, including the big chains, because it is so readily available and just about the cheapest oil you can find. Sunflower oil on the other hand is much harder to find at the retail level. None of the stores near me carry it.

Riposo is a rest period that usually takes place at the end of the knead, as Marco mentions at Reply 59 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1415.msg15195.html#msg15195. It is not a classic autolyse because the dough at that stage has just about all of the ingredients in it although sometimes the salt might be added late in the process, especially if the flour is a strong flour. Evelyne Slomon also discusses her understanding of riposo and its origins in the next to the last paragraph in her post at Reply 16 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3873.msg32525.html#msg32525. Bill/SFNM is also a big user of riposo, as he mentions at Reply 225 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg147521/topicseen.html#msg147521. See, also, Bill's quoted material in Reply 341 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1053.msg12210/topicseen.html#msg12210.

Peter


Thanks so much for the links pete! I really understand the process now after reading. But in regards to the oil Da Michele uses to finish there pies, I highly doubt it is vegetable oil.. Do you know if there is any popular oil used in Naples that isnt a Extra Virgin Olive Oil? Apparently Da Michele uses Soybean oil because its cheap, but in the article it says they use a mixture of olive and soybean oils to finish there pies. Im very interested in this. I have found these on the web and I wonder if they would be good for finishing a pie (similar in flavor to da michele of course) !!

This oil is super cheap! Organic Soybean oil, 64 oz. at $13!!

http://www.amazon.com/Cibaria-Organic-Soybean-Oil-64/dp/B004D0AJVS/?tag=pizzamaking-20

This is a 8.5 oz. bottle of Soybean and Extra Virgin Olive Oil for $2.50!! and the second link only $1.29

http://www.ecrater.com/p/12573303/pampa-pure-soybean-extra-virgin
http://www.netgrocer.com/pd/Pampa/Pure-Soybean-Oil-and-Extra-Virgin-Olive-Oil/8-50-fl-oz/857361000596/?clksrc=gproduct

Heres a 8 oz. bottle of blended soy and olive oil for $4.50

http://www.bonanza.com/listings/8-Ounce-Soybean-and-Olive-OiL-Blend/13004655

Another brand of Blended Olive and Soybean oil, 8.5 oz for $3.61

These are the ones I was able to find on the net. Do any of these look good? Or has anyone had experience with these? Please let me know! I am interested in cloning the Da Michele, and Im sure you guys know that! I would love to be able to have the kinda oil they use or something similar and since this stuff is like dirt cheap it would be a gold mine for the tongue! Thanks!

-Jordan

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: My Neapolitan Progress
« Reply #59 on: January 10, 2012, 06:20:03 AM »
Hi Jordan - Vegetable oil is a generic term for a number of different seed oils, one being soybean. Most producers of "vegetable" oil use soybeans as their source.

http://www.crisco.com/Products/ProductDetail.aspx?groupID=15&prodID=303

When you say "finish" the pie at Da Michele, are you saying they dress the pizza after it comes out of the oven? My understanding is that they only drizzle just before it goes in. And the use of a flavorless oil (soybean) is to let the tomatoes and cheese come through as cleanly as possible. It also may allow them to keep the costs down.

Chau - Do you have a thread post that outlines your clone formula/workflow?

John