My Neapolitan Progress

[TXCraig1]

Craig, I have been reading a lot of your posts and looking at your pies and I must say they look absolutely delicious! I am happy you decided to chime in this thread, and I am glad you told me about your experience with autolyse. I am aware that it is not common practice in naples, but Dellavecchia has told me that Da Michele does an autolyse, so Im tempted to try it. And I heard it makes your dough kneading time significantly shorter, but I dont know if this is proven. Since I do all my mixing and kneading by hand, its difficult for me to come to a conclusion on whats the best possible technique. I dont want to keep wasting dough, even though I know experimenting is all the fun, but there is a lot that can go wrong with simply altering 1 step in your dough making procedure..

I wasn’t trying to suggest that you shouldn’t try it; rather I would encourage you to try it. It’s how you learn. I don’t see it as wasting dough, and dough is pretty inexpensive. You’ll pick up all sorts of experience in many areas when you experiment, and you’ll learn lots of things you didn’t set out to learn. And, as you noted, it’s fun.

As I’m sure you are figuring out, there are many ways to skin the cat. Employing some variant of autolyse may reduce your kneading time, notwithstanding my knead time is about 3 minutes without it, and there are methods producing good results with zero knead time.

Thank you for the complement on my pies. I’m happy to help the best I can with any specific questions you might have.

Craig

[BurntFingers]

Jordan,
I've read through many of the posts in My Neapolitan Progress.  You are getting there..  Might I recommend that you go up to north Jersey and check out  the Pizzaiolo at Amano .  Occasionally, they offer free demonstration classes using their Neapolitan WFO's. They have only certified Pizzaioli working there.   They use the 00 flour in the Blue Caputo Bags and sell the small 1kg Red bags of Caputo 00 flour.  We have attended a few of their sessions and picked up a few tricks and methods that we have tweaked and used in our WFO at home.   Truth be told we don't fire it up unless we can make at least 10 pizza's. The most we've done in an afternoon is 36 for a party.  If we don't have a crowd to eat them they go in the freezer.
The recipe we use we developed to suit our household equipment.  We do measure everything in grams and use only Caputo 00 Blue and starter from Campania.  Often times after the pizza oven cools down we bake breads.  Bread and Pizza from scratch is a two or three day event.  No use rushing things. Our typical yield is 16 loaves of artisan breads. It goes into freezer or we give it away. 
Bill 

[salvatoregianpaolo]

John is right, and the only time oil is added is just a drizzle before the pizza goes into the oven.  Once it is finished baking, nothing else is done to it.  A neutral tasting oil will allow the other flavors to stand out more, as Extra Virgin Olive Oil, especially those freshly pressed, can have a very strong and overpowering taste.  I brought back quite a bit from the agriturismo we stayed at in Tuscany, and I am careful in it's application.  It isn't the best choice for every dish.  

That said, I would venture to believe any use of a soybean oil would be strictly to cut cost.  In general, when Italian cooking calls for a lighter oil, one would just reach for a non-EVO, in other words, an olive oil made from subsequent pressings.  They will be lighter in taste and not take over the dish.  

Salvatore

[Jordan]

Thanks John, but out of those oils I posted links of are any of them good? Or is there any suggestions you or others could give me on a milder oil that would be good for "dressing" pies? Sorry I said finish, and yes I meant it as they finish off the pie with "A mixture of olive and soybean oils before it goes in the OVEN".

Craig, I am def up for experimentation, but I have to for sure learn to experiment with smaller quantities of dough.. I have made 2 batches of dough with 1.7kg of flour consecutively and that was not the best choice in that I am only making test doughs. But I dont wanna do such small batches because it might be hard to knead in such small quantities and since I use my hands, Im not sure about the amount of difficulty this might be for me. I am also wondering of a good hand kneading technique there is out there that works similar to what a "diving arms" or fork mixer does. I watched the famous Da Michele video where they show there mixer going and its extremely slow and nothing like the videos I see of people hand kneading there dough really quickly.. I would like to learn how to affectively knead and copy the speed, finesse, and love the slow RPM mixers give to the dough. I feel like the videos I see of people punching the dough is not the most effective, especially I feel like it would heat up the dough which is another bad thing.. And since most people on this forum are getting these incredible $1000+ mixers for their dough, I am one of those lone soldiers that isnt really interested in getting one. I would love to learn the trade by hand, but not seeing anyone do it or showing me or having a reference of videos to watch its becoming an issue for me on this subject. I will keep digging till I find gold!

Bill, Thanks for all the info man! Sounds like you have a killer time making all those pies and bread! After I get the neapolitan down I would love to learn to make some delicious sour dough bread! Yum!!! And I like how you said its a 2-3 day process. Its all about not rushing and loving the time you spent doing what youre passionate about. It would be an honor for me if one day we could cook up some pies together being were both located in NJ!

Salvatore, your posts are always enlightening. Along with my notes to John, is there any oil that you would recommend for dressing a pie prior to it going in the oven? I am trying to stay away from the 100% extra virgin olive oils since theyre way too fruity and not something I would like for my margheritas. But, I also dont want to go out and buy one and have to return it because it tastes terrible on pizza or any other dish for that matter. Suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

Thank you guys! And I think I will be making a batch of dough sometime today or tomorrow with intense data recorded. I will be keeping a log of all my dough from now on just like Omid and Chau said I should. And I will be trying to figure out a way that every time I make dough I can do 2 test batches at the same time to be able to see whats best for me.

-Jordan

[dellavecchia]

I feel like the videos I see of people punching the dough is not the most effective, especially I feel like it would heat up the dough which is another bad thing.. And since most people on this forum are getting these incredible $1000+ mixers for their dough, I am one of those lone soldiers that isnt really interested in getting one. I would love to learn the trade by hand, but not seeing anyone do it or showing me or having a reference of videos to watch its becoming an issue for me on this subject. I will keep digging till I find gold!

Jordan - Search for "bread stretch and fold" on youtube and you will find some good videos of the technique. If you were to replace the "kneading for one minute" in the recipe I posted for you with "do one stretch and fold on each corner", you would have the exact workflow I use for most of my 18-24 hours pizza doughs. In the case of a lower hydration, like the low 60's, I "slap" and fold, which involves slapping the dough on the counter while still holding the side closest to you, and then folding the side over onto itself.

John

[TXCraig1]

And since most people on this forum are getting these incredible $1000+ mixers for their dough, I am one of those lone soldiers that isn’t really interested in getting one. I would love to learn the trade by hand, but not seeing anyone do it or showing me or having a reference of videos to watch its becoming an issue for me on this subject.

Jordan, you don't need a $1000 mixer to make great dough. I use an almost 20 year old KitchenAid K5 with a C-hook. My best results have come with minimal kneading in the mixer. I add about 2/3 the flour at once and then the last 1/3 over the next 3-4 minutes trying to incorporate as much air as possible. After that, I only let it knead for 3-5 minutes or so. It has a look when it's ready that I've not been able to adequately capture in a picture. After the mixer, I let it rest a few minutes, give it a few hand kneads until it gets tight, let it rest again for 10 minutes or so then a few more kneads and it’s soft and smooth as a baby’s bottom.

From time-to-time, I mix by hand. I can’t say I prefer one method to the other – hand mixing is just more work. When I mix by hand, I use this technique: http://www.gourmet.com/magazine/video/2008/03/bertinet_sweetdough  After the dough has come together and is basically homogenous, it will begin to get stiff (as opposed to the dough in the video, yours probably has no egg or oil, so it will get much stiffer much faster – what will be the same is how it goes from sticky and rough to soft, smooth, and no longer sticky). When it does get stiff, I let it rest for 10 minutes or so then knead again until it gets stiff – it maybe only 10-12 kneads. After 3-4 of these kneads and rests, it will be soft and smooth.

Craig

[Pete-zza]

Jordan,

In the thread I referenced earlier, at Reply 25 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,656.msg11529.html#msg11529, I mentioned how I once tried to locate oils that were used around Naples, specifically, by asking a worker at DiPaolo's about Campania oils. Two posts later, at Reply 27, Marco told me that I was given incorrect information but he proceeded to mention some oils from Cilentro and Sorrento that he thought would be good to use. My recollection is that I did a Google search but did not pursue the matter any further.

Peter

[TXCraig1]

Thanks John, but out of those oils I posted links of are any of them good? Or is there any suggestions you or others could give me on a milder oil that would be good for "dressing" pies? Sorry I said finish, and yes I meant it as they finish off the pie with "A mixture of olive and soybean oils before it goes in the OVEN".

Jordan,

Here are my favorites:

1) San Damiano Extra Virgin Olive Oil

2) a blend of Columela Hajiblanca EVOO and Colavita Frutatto EVOO in about a 50:50 ratio. The Columela is very buttery and the Colavita has a very olive-fruity flavor. I really like the combined buttery-olivey flavor. Both are widely available

CL

[Jackie Tran]

Chau - Do you have a thread post that outlines your clone formula/workflow?

John

Sorry John, I did not post about the recipe or workflow.  I will dig through my many notes later.  If I see it I will forward it to you.

Chau

[salvatoregianpaolo]

Jordan,

Olive oil is not so one-dimensional.  Extra-virgin oil is not necessarily "fruity," in fact, it can be quite the opposite.  Tuscan oils are some of the finest, and rather than fruity they are peppery and herbal.  As I mentioned, I just brought back some recently pressed oil from the latest harvest, and it is sharp, peppery, and absolutely fantastic... when used in the correct application.

Just as with wine, I would recommend tasting as many oils as you can.  That is the only way you will learn what your preferences are.  Other than what I bring back from Italy I have grown quite fond of Frantoia.  It won't overpower the main ingredients in a dish.  For some even milder oils, there are quite a few from Sicily that are very nice.  Learn about the olives, then you will have a better understanding of how an oil will taste based on what olives make up its composition.  (Again, just as with wine!)

Grazie,
Salvatore

[Jordan]

Thanks John! After filling in the blanks with the stretch and fold it clears things up, I'll be using 62% hydration with my next batch so should I be doing this slap and fold you infer on higher hydration doughs? I would love to try this!!! Thanks again!

And as for the olive oil, I thank craig for posting his favorites! Is this the one you speak of Craig?

http://www.olio2go.com/Products/San-Damiano-di-Francesca-Barnato-2010__SND-005.aspx

If so, I would love to give it a try. And I am aware of its dimensions, but as I said I am very interested in cloning the da Michele pie and any bit of info sparks my interest. I would be intrigued if any of you are aware of the oil da Michele uses and I would appreciate the info.

I will be doing a set of test doughs when I recieve my trapani sicilian sea salt in the mail. Should be here soon! Here's my notes I wrote on my phone for the experiments. Maybe you guys could give me some input or methods I should alter in these trials in order for me to get better results. Here it goes!!


Current test...

2 batches 
(1000g of flour)

Ingredients 
500g flour (Caputo 00 Pizza)
310g water (Tap at room temp)
13.5g salt (sea salt)
.5g yeast (fresh yeast)

Take temperature of all ingredients and the ambient temp before, while, and after making dough. 

Dissolve yeast in a little water and mix in a pinch of flour before measuring other ingredients 

1st batch (method)
Water
dissolve salt
add 40% of flour
mix
add yeast mixture and mix
Add rest of flour and combine
Rest for 20 min
Stretch and fold for a minute
Rest for 15 min
Stretch and fold one last time

2nd batch (method)
Follow all steps except no rest ("autolyse") and use knuckles to knead and trap air (ex. Pasquale video)

Both batches bulk ferment for 20-24 hours at 71-72deg (Da Michele Temp in chambers)

Makes 3 balls each batch. 250g each.

Balled ferment 4-16 hours 

Test for both batches. Bake at...
1st ball - 4 hours
2nd ball - 8-10 hours
3rd ball - 16-24 hours

Record results and picturs.


So... What do you guys think?!

Thanks!

[TXCraig1]

And as for the olive oil, I thank craig for posting his favorites! Is this the one you speak of Craig?

http://www.olio2go.com/Products/San-Damiano-di-Francesca-Barnato-2010__SND-005.aspx

Yes, that is what I use on my Margherita.

CL

[salvatoregianpaolo]

That oil has such great color!  I'm tempted to give it a try...

Sempre imparando,
Salvatore

[dellavecchia]

Other than what I bring back from Italy I have grown quite fond of Frantoia.

Frantoia is my favorite, Salvatore. I buy them 6 at a time to save on shipping:

http://www.pennmac.com/items/3155//frantoia-barbera-unfiltered-olive-oil

John

[TXCraig1]

Frantoia is my favorite, Salvatore. I buy them 6 at a time to save on shipping:

http://www.pennmac.com/items/3155//frantoia-barbera-unfiltered-olive-oil

John

I can get Frantoia locally, and it is also excellent - not quite as good as the San Daminao (IMHO) - but excellent nonetheless.

CL

[Jackie Tran]

Looks good Jordan.  I would like to make a few points here.  When you use a small amount of yeast with a planned long fermentation, it is easy to get impatient as the dough will just sit there and not do anything for many hours.   Just have patience with it and it will take off eventually.  Wait it out.

Also how or what factor(s) will you use to determine when to divide and ball the dough between the 20th and the 24th hour?

Your decision to bake them up at 4, 8-10, and 16-24 hours is an excellent one.  This will show you many things, how the dough will look at different stages of fermentation, how they will handle, and ultimately how they differ from one another post bake.  

If you can keep your baking temps and times, baking conditions, and set up as standard as possible.  It may be tempting to change it up after the first bake, but you may have to save that for a different day.  

I will have to read the thread again to see your oven set up.  Have you gotten in your IR thermometer yet?  It will be really important to take temp readings prior to launching pies.  I would not proceed until you have that.  Also you may want to make a few 3-4 hour dough balls to do a few test runs with the oven prior to making this bigger batch of dough.   Doing so will give you a few ideas on if you need to change your set up and possibly how to change it.  

Also for test bakes, I will often make margherita pies with just sauce and slice garlic, as I do not wish to eat so many test pizzas or throw them away.  Dough and sauce is cheap, cheese is not.

Good luck and do post some pics.
Chau

[salvatoregianpaolo]

Also for test bakes, I will often make margherita pies with just sauce and slice garlic, as I do not wish to eat so many test pizzas or throw them away.  Dough and sauce is cheap, cheese is not.

Roberto Caporuscio from Keste has demonstrated on video how they do "test" pies when training using macaroni (I would think either a rigatoni or penne would be best), as he has found this to accurately simulate the weight of mozzarella.

[salvatoregianpaolo]

Frantoia is my favorite, Salvatore. I buy them 6 at a time to save on shipping:

http://www.pennmac.com/items/3155//frantoia-barbera-unfiltered-olive-oil

John

Thanks John!  That's at least $6 cheaper than in the stores by me.  I started using it when I discovered that was the oil of choice at Le Bernadin, one of my favorite restaurants.  If it's good enough for Eric Ripert, I felt I at least owed it a try.  Now I'm going to have to try the San Damiano, as well, though.  Especially since they have it locally at Olio 2 Go.  I've been meaning to drop by their warehouse.

Grazie mille,
Salvatore

[Jordan]

Yes, that is what I use on my Margherita.

Fantastic, I have read online about this oil and it seems to be a wonder. I will try for sure!

Looks good Jordan.  I would like to make a few points here.  When you use a small amount of yeast with a planned long fermentation, it is easy to get impatient as the dough will just sit there and not do anything for many hours.   Just have patience with it and it will take off eventually.  Wait it out.

Also how or what factor(s) will you use to determine when to divide and ball the dough between the 20th and the 24th hour?

Your decision to bake them up at 4, 8-10, and 16-24 hours is an excellent one.  This will show you many things, how the dough will look at different stages of fermentation, how they will handle, and ultimately how they differ from one another post bake. 

If you can keep your baking temps and times, baking conditions, and set up as standard as possible.  It may be tempting to change it up after the first bake, but you may have to save that for a different day. 

I will have to read the thread again to see your oven set up.  Have you gotten in your IR thermometer yet?  It will be really important to take temp readings prior to launching pies.  I would not proceed until you have that.  Also you may want to make a few 3-4 hour dough balls to do a few test runs with the oven prior to making this bigger batch of dough.   Doing so will give you a few ideas on if you need to change your set up and possibly how to change it. 

Also for test bakes, I will often make margherita pies with just sauce and slice garlic, as I do not wish to eat so many test pizzas or throw them away.  Dough and sauce is cheap, cheese is not.

Good luck and do post some pics.
Chau

Hello Chau, good point with the bulk fermentation, and trust me.. I have thought about it, but since Im doing two batches and only about 6 dough balls total, Im slim on my options of the bulk fermentation being split up at different times, its possible, but would there really be a difference between 20-24 hours? I can for sure experiment further with this, but like you said using such small amounts of yeast will take some time to let it do what it wants to do.  And thank you for the kind words on my balled fermentation times, I thought it was a good thing to experiment with as well.  I do have an infrared thermometer and I have a standard gas oven (not electric, I might have wrote electric in my previous posts but its indeed a gas oven) and I was able to get it to around 760f on the stone the other day! Which isnt bad for not doing any modifications. And trust me Im still looking into some modifications, but Im not as worried about this because I plan to get a WFO in the near future anyways.  My idea was since Im going to ball both batches of dough at the same time, I can bake off two of them and see the results side by side in each bake and then compare them to the other (longer fermented) balls, and see which ones "work better in my kitchen" as you guys in the forum like to put it! And for sure I will just be making marinara pies, maybe Ill try the rigatoni on top of the pies since the weight and slight added hydration of the cooked macaroni is a factor that is important indeed!

[Jordan]

I have started my experiment. Here's a quote from my earlier post with details to the experiment.

Here's my notes I wrote on my phone for the experiments. Maybe you guys could give me some input or methods I should alter in these trials in order for me to get better results. Here it goes!!

Current test...

2 batches
(1000g of flour)

Ingredients
500g flour (Caputo 00 Pizza)
310g water (Tap at room temp)
13.5g salt (sea salt)
.5g yeast (fresh yeast)

Take temperature of all ingredients and the ambient temp before, while, and after making dough.

Dissolve yeast in a little water and mix in a pinch of flour before measuring other ingredients

1st batch (method)
Water
dissolve salt
add 40% of flour
mix
add yeast mixture and mix
Add rest of flour and combine
Rest for 20 min
Stretch and fold for a minute
Rest for 15 min
Stretch and fold one last time

2nd batch (method)
Follow all steps except no rest ("autolyse") and use knuckles to knead and trap air (ex. Pasquale video)

Both batches bulk ferment for 20-24 hours at 71-72deg (Da Michele Temp in chambers)

Makes 3 balls each batch. 250g each.

Balled ferment 4-16 hours

Test for both batches. Bake at...
1st ball - 4 hours
2nd ball - 8-10 hours
3rd ball - 16-24 hours

Record results and picturs.


So... What do you guys think?!

Thanks!

So... Before I reveal my data, I will give a quick summary of what this is about. Basically I made 2 batches of dough (Pasta A and Pasta B) Pasta A and B are both made with the same ingredients, measurements, and temperatures to have a control. But the process I focused mainly on was the hand kneading and fermentation of balled dough, to solve my curiosity on the two subjects. Obviously it will answer many questions for me but as for experimentation I have created controls and will stick to them for this experiment. Here's my data I recorded.


Experiments

Ambient Temp - 73f

Ingredient Temps For Pasta A & B (I Made sure they were the same temp for both tests)
Flour Temp - 66f
Water Temp - 69f
Yeast Temp - 46f
Salt Temp - 74f

Pasta A
Pasta A Temp Pre-knead - 72f
Pasta A Temp After Kneading - 73f
Pasta A Weight - 803g

Pasta B
Pasta B Temp Pre-Autolyse - 72f
Pasta B Temp After Stretch And Fold - 72f
Pasta B Weight - 792g

Bulk
Bulk Pasta A Temp - 71f
Bulk Pasta A Start Time - 5pm (Will be balled at same time tomorrow)
Bulk Dough B Temp - 71f
Bulk Dough B Time Start - 6pm (Will be balled at same time tomorrow)

Ambient Bulk Time/Temp Together - 6pm at 72f

Make 6, 260g balls
3 for batch A and B

And here's a video of some of my preparation and "process" of this experiment"

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMWkH809-nE" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMWkH809-nE</a>

Pictures below of my scales, bulk pasta, Dough proofing trays (showing Pasta A and B), Morton sea salt from spain, and DOP San Marzanos.

Please let me know how you feel! Thanks!