Author Topic: My Neapolitan Progress (Read 17840 times)

salvatoregianpaolo · « **Reply #120 on:** January 28, 2012, 05:02:55 PM »

Chau,

Before my recent trip to Napoli I would have agreed with you! As I've posted before, the most striking feature for me was the suppleness of the dough. Now, of course with a wfo, everything is different. And I would not argue that hydration affects many things. I am simply stating that from my observations in a somewhat modified home oven (I'm now getting it up to 850 deg), using the same or very similar formulations, I would consider the different results based on time very dramatic. From 90 seconds to 2 minutes is night/day. I would even say 90 to 105 is large. I feel if I can stay under the 90 second mark, I am closer to what I tasted in Napoli. Ideally, I would prefer to be closer to the 60 second number! In fact, I have no problem with the bottom charring at the 60 second point. I have continued past that in an attempt to get more top-coloration. I think I am reconsidering the wisdom of this, however, and will begin to focus on texture.

I am using 100% Caputo, Ischia starter, and varying my hydration between 58-66%. I am unsure if there is anything to be gained venturing higher than that using my setup. In fact, the best results so far have come on the lower end of the scale.

Grazie per leggendo,
Salvatore

dellavecchia · « **Reply #121 on:** January 28, 2012, 05:07:06 PM »

Da Michele is a very highly hydrated dough, and from what I gather their bake time approaches two minutes, easily. And the dough is still soft and pliable. I agree with Chau - hydration is a big factor in bake time, as well as a sizable WFO oven to control heat.

John

kiwipete · « **Reply #122 on:** January 28, 2012, 05:47:23 PM »

Quote from: dellavecchia on January 28, 2012, 05:07:06 PM

Da Michele is a very highly hydrated dough, and from what I gather their bake time approaches two minutes, easily. And the dough is still soft and pliable. I agree with Chau - hydration is a big factor in bake time, as well as a sizable WFO oven to control heat.

John

On the times I have been there, bake time was between 50 seconds and about a minute. I also doubt they could put through the 1200 odd pizze they typically do on any given day, if bake times were 2 minutes.

Peter

salvatoregianpaolo · « **Reply #123 on:** January 28, 2012, 06:15:57 PM »

Chau,

Perhaps were are slightly off the mark in terms of what we both see as "toughness." What I experienced in Napoli, and I believe Jordan can attest to this as well, you could never lift a "slice" of the pizza in the air, because it would just come apart. It is that soft and supple. That is why it is eaten with a fork/knife or as a portafoglio. From what I see in a lot of photos here are pizza that are overly "doughy." Now, they might not necessarily be tough, but they would have what I would describe as too much chew.

John,

Not arguing that hydration is a huge factor. Again, I also do not have a wfo, therefore I find timing is of even more importance in a home-oven setting.

Salvatore

Pizza Napoletana · « **Reply #124 on:** January 28, 2012, 06:18:50 PM »

This is a stimulating dialogue being developed here. Please allow me to contribute what I can. Dear Jordan, when you create music with your electric guitar, which is more important: the types of wood used in the guitar, the pickup on the guitar, the type of strings, their tuning, the strings action, the bridge, the neck, the saddle, the type of amplifier, your skills, the formative idea underlying your creation, or the creative process that materializes the idea? If creating a work of art is an organic (distinct from mechanical) process, then every part—to various degrees—should serve the function of the whole. Consider the following analogy. A living animal cell, which is an organic unity, is composed of various organelles: nucleus, ribosome, mitochondria, and etc. Every organelle has its own particular function to perform. By analogy, when an organelle of a living cell malfunctions, often the entire cell malfunctions.

In philosophy of G.W.F. Hegel (1770-1831), this view is known as the "doctrine of organicism", which, in my opinion, can and should be applied to the art of making Neapolitan pizza. Hegel put forth the doctrine as a direct reaction to the "theory of mechanism" of the Newtonian physics, which had gained prominence in his time. The tension between the two has formed much of the history of the Western civilization, at least since 624 BC to the present!

The doctrine of organicism claims that an organism, as a hierarchical and interdependent unity of parts serving the life of the whole, is the model for understanding the arts, cultures, economics, politics, and world history. Hegel, unlike many of our politicians who seem to be capable only of mechanical thinking, argued that nothing can function in isolation, but rather only as a sustained and sustaining part of the organic totality to which it belongs. In Hegelian aesthetics, development of a work of art is akin to an organism as a hierarchical, interdependent unity of parts, in which each of the parts (like the heart, the liver, and the lungs of a human organism) plays a necessary role in maintaining the life of the whole. The parts do not, however, exist or function as independent pieces. On the contrary, each is a dependent part of an organism, and functions to serve the organism as a whole. Hegel's doctrine has informed and inspired a great many artists. The German literary artist Goethe viewed nature as an organic totality; the Romantic poets, Schlegel, Wordsworth, and Coleridge, all viewed true art as achieving organic unity out of multiplicity. In contrast, mechanism views the universe, including our mental life, as mere matter in motion, a purposeless activity, governed by the causal laws of motion of bodies in time and space. (Perhaps, it is right!!!) Moreover, this view is often shortsighted, like many of our politicians, of the interrelationship between all the parts constituting the totality.

Crafting Neapolitan pizza is indubitably an organic art, i.e., "achieving organic unity out of multiplicity". Accordingly, I think that while the type of water used in making dough is consequential, not being able to generate enough oven heat is more repercussive. All the parts should serve the life of the whole. Good day!

dellavecchia · « **Reply #125 on:** January 28, 2012, 09:32:09 PM »

Quote from: kiwipete on January 28, 2012, 05:47:23 PM

On the times I have been there, bake time was between 50 seconds and about a minute. I also doubt they could put through the 1200 odd pizze they typically do on any given day, if bake times were 2 minutes.

Peter

Peter - I meant to say they can approach the two minute mark. Here is an example of a 90 second pie, and possibly longer for the subsequent ones behind. They stack in 5 pies. I would assume that time of day and temperature of oven may dictate baking time, but the dough must not suffer in terms of pliability:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXW4RrZM6h0" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXW4RrZM6h0</a>

But you are correct, there are other videos showing a 50-60 second bake.

John

Jackie Tran · « **Reply #126 on:** January 28, 2012, 10:47:15 PM »

Quote from: salvatoregianpaolo on January 28, 2012, 06:15:57 PM

Chau,

Perhaps were are slightly off the mark in terms of what we both see as "toughness." What I experienced in Napoli, and I believe Jordan can attest to this as well, you could never lift a "slice" of the pizza in the air, because it would just come apart. It is that soft and supple. That is why it is eaten with a fork/knife or as a portafoglio. From what I see in a lot of photos here are pizza that are overly "doughy." Now, they might not necessarily be tough, but they would have what I would describe as too much chew.

Salvatore

Salvatore, this is a good point. A crust may not be tough, but it may also not be pillowy or light as a cloud either. It's rare that I see a NP crumb shot that makes me think, now that is LIGHT! How many times have you been to Da Michele, and the different times you were there, was the crust and crumb consistently light and great in you opinion?
Also do you have any pictures saved away of their crumb that you can post for the rest of us who have yet to have the pleasure?

Thanks,
Chau

salvatoregianpaolo · « **Reply #127 on:** January 29, 2012, 02:08:18 PM »

Chau,

I was only at Da Michele one time, but I think it is a characteristic trait of pizza napoletana that it have on overall sense of "lightness." It is not hard to consume an entire pie by yourself, and actually one might not be enough!

Unfortunately, I do not believe taking pictures from the inside of restaurants. Just my personal opinion, and I have no problem with anyone who chooses to do so, I just view eating as a sacred ritual of sorts, and find taking pictures creates a circus-like atmosphere. Again, just my opinion.

I will say this: I've been to Da Michele, and it was fabulous. Classic. However, what I experienced at Gino Sorbillo was in another league! Now that I've been to Da Michele I don't know if I would need to return. Gino Sorbillo (and Salvo) will be on my short list for this year, though.

Grazie,
Salvatore

Jackie Tran · « **Reply #128 on:** January 29, 2012, 03:02:40 PM »

Thanks for the reply Salvatore. I understand your point of view about pictures. I think I would probably have the same point of view if I was more familiar with the culture and this style of pizza. B/c I am such a visual learner, I rely heavily on visual confirmation and textural discriptions to be able to learn more about this pizza until I can make it to the mother land myself.

Interesting, your experience between Da Michele and Gino Sorbillo. I have heard that their pizzas are quite different in texture and taste with fans of both pizzas. You can see the differences in how the dough is handled. Can you describe to me the differences between the 2 and what you like about one over the other?

Thank you,
Chau

salvatoregianpaolo · « **Reply #129 on:** January 29, 2012, 03:13:42 PM »

Chau,

You are correct!

Watching a pizza being shaped at Da Michele: subtle, caressing, gentle.
Watching Gino Sorbillo shape dough: he attacks it!! He makes the dough do what HE wants it to do!

Very different, but both great results. I found Da Michele to be classic, understated. Pure simplicity. At Gino Sorbillo, on the other hand, the taste had "pop," the dough incredibly supple and LIGHT. The taste was incredible. My wife and I were both surprised at how large the pizzas were at both places, but especially at GS, because of the size, it really made you remark, "My gosh, feel how light this is!"

kiwipete · « **Reply #130 on:** January 29, 2012, 03:50:59 PM »

Back in 2010 Marco (pizzanapoletana) said about the difference between Da Michele and Gino Sorbillo:

Quote

Da Michele's dough still blow off of the water most wild yeast dough around the world. One day I will cover in full the reasons, but in the main time you just have to trust me on that ;-). Again, As I still like it, I actually believe that Gino's pizza do not retain all the wonders of pizza napoletana and therefore it should be one of many other tasted but not the only one or one of two. I was in Naples last week and a senior guy at VPN was actually described Gino's pizza as almost not neapolitan...

Peter

Jackie Tran · « **Reply #131 on:** January 29, 2012, 04:40:39 PM »

Jordan, not sure how close or far from authentic NP this texture is but it was very light, tender, and delicious. My wfo was still semi hot from yesterday's bake so it didn't take long to heat up. I meant to make a 6-8 hour tester dough but put too much idy and the dough was ready in 3 hours.

Anyways I had no choice but to bake these doughs up and I was very surprise by the result.

Though the heat was very uneven, the floor too hot at 960F, and not enough flames rolling over the top, the pies still came out very good. I rarely like my NP pies that I make, but these were good.

I also tend to open my dough too much, so for these I purposely made them thicker than usual, which i do like.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yeNZDlcj_4" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yeNZDlcj_4</a>

A few crumb shots from the above pie and his friends.

salvatoregianpaolo · « **Reply #132 on:** January 30, 2012, 11:26:07 AM »

Quote from: kiwipete on January 29, 2012, 03:50:59 PM

Back in 2010 Marco (pizzanapoletana) said about the difference between Da Michele and Gino Sorbillo:

Peter

Peter,

I think this is a bit disingenuous, for surely a quick search of Marco's posts concerning Gino Sorbillo will also reveal it is one of his favorites, it is on his short-list of places to visit, and, along with a few others, in a league of its own.

Marco has also stated Gino Sorbillo tends to be dryer than Da Michele, but that was several years ago. On the day I visited, I found quite the opposite.

Grazie,
Salvatore

Jordan · « **Reply #133 on:** February 01, 2012, 12:35:20 AM »

Wow, absolutely incredible discussions going on here.

Ill try my best to scroll down the replies and add my 2 cents to anything I can.

Scott and Marlon, thanks for the kind words on my dough. I recently baked a couple pies that I will elaborate more on as these posts continue, but needless to say, I now understand the importance of heat. Omid also thoroughly explained the heat factors of a WFO in depth and it really broadened my understanding on not only WFO's, but heat sources in general. My oven has a "good" broiler, and I am capable of getting my pie close to the broiler. Scott I promised you I would measure, and I have found out that from the top of my pizza to the broiler, its about 3 inches.

My WFO should be in my arms around the middle of March! Until then, I suppose I have to just deal with it.

Chau, in reference to reply #115, thanks a lot man. I have been baking anywhere from 2.5 min - 3.5 min and I do notice that the one I made that was 2 min which I will post was very tender and had the flop I was looking for. I dont notice much between 2.5-3 min though, but thats also in a gas oven, as you all know a second could change everything for a bake in a WFO and thats not from experience, just from talking to people with "experience"

Matt, thanks, I usually only make a 3 ball batch and I put it in a standard plastic pizza proofing box most restaurants would use, some day when I want to make high volume I will def experiment with filling them up. Would I get different results by placing the small batch of 3 close to each other? Let me know, I am interested in this.

BurntFingers, I have made a batch recently with bottled water (after so many attempts with tap) didnt notice a taste difference at all, and yet again I wasnt curious about water for flavor, more over the minerals and the hardness of the water. Also Im pretty sure I mentioned the little bit about having a nuclear power plant close to my town which is known for affecting our water somewhat with radiation. I am interesting in getting this filtered water dispenser since its not that expensive and its probably better for me to start drinking filtered water regardless. After reading about the positives of filtered tap water Im on the fence of being sold on it, but I will research more on my local tap until I make any purchases.

For the topic of bake times, I would really love to chime in, but unfortunately I dont own a WFO (YET!) and until then it will probably still take me a long time to really determine the length of bake times in terms of seconds and its affect on the overall product. Since VPN states a Pizza Napoletana should be baked under 2 min (90 sec. tops) I would postulate that as long as your bakes are under 90 sec then youre doing the right thing. Since the temps of a true Neapolitan oven are very high and extremely fierce, I could imagine there being a significant difference between a 50 sec bake and a 60 sec bake. Ive even heard about people doming a pie too long and it igniting in flames! As for hydration dealing with bake times, I would have to agree as well. Da Michele is rumored to use 64.5% hydration and they have extremely supple dough that nearly needs any effort to push out, the bakes there are quick, 50-60 sec for sure and the oven is so good they dont need to mess with it much. Watch videos of the forniao at keste and theyre performing a show for you while they bake your pizza.. I cant attest to the method of baking creating a difference in product, but Im sure it does.

Salvatore, the pizza at Da Michele is impossible to lift up a slice, you're right. When I cut wedges and tried lifting it up it would just flop all around and I was just embarrassing myself. A knife and fork is very necessary.

John, thanks for that video, Ive been looking for a picture of Da Michele's cut wood for reference. Do you have any good info on wood cutting for a WFO? Thanks!

Chau that pie looks awesome! A 3 hour dough? Was it easy to eat? I know Coccia swears that you can get a digestible dough in 7 hours, but most of us who use Caputo would disagree with such a short and rushed fermentation period. I am very interested in your experiment and it should how important heat is when it comes to Neapolitan. If you didnt tell anyone how long that dough fermented Im sure most of use wouldnt of questioned.. What was your mixing/kneading method for this dough? Thanks for sharing!

Jordan · « **Reply #134 on:** February 01, 2012, 01:07:25 AM »

Hey everyone, I recently made a set of videos for my whole process of making Neapolitan dough. From the mixing to the bake. I even through in a section where I compare two types of San Marzano tomatoes! Before I get into this, I wanted to really reach out to you guys and see if we can all come together on this idea I have been thinking about. Since we're in a time were technology is so vast, I would assume most of you guys here have video cameras, right? Or at least a laptop with some means of video recording? A cell phone that can record? Something!? Anywho, I would like to start a project in which all of us Neapolitan Pizza Makers document our process of making dough - to the bake; just like I have done. I dont expect fancy editing or background music, just a simple set of videos of your process so we can all SEE what kind of experiments we are up too!

Neapolitan pizza is the oldest form of pizza and its full of simplicity. But, it seems as if its a marvel for us who live in the states and arent capable of waking up in Naples every morning and riding a bike to a local pizzeria! I would love for us to be able to add to the growth of this beautiful product by spreading media that is the best form we have available right now besides being there in person... Video!
What I would like to see people start posting is...

Videos of the mixing/kneading process, either by hand or with a mixer.
Videos of the balling process, including information on the fermentation.
Videos of the comparisons of ingredients; type of salt, water, leaven, flour, tomato, cheese, misc topping, ect...
Videos of the baking process, either in a home oven, modified grill, WFO, ect...
Videos of the additional information included in your process, where you learned it from, ect...

Would you want to be part of this?

I will keep posting videos of my techniques for you guys to watch and critique and give me advice on something I should change about my method or experiment with.

It would be really incredible for you guys to join in on this and see how it works out. It would be like a building video encyclopedia for Neapolitan Pizza!

My recent bake was successful, but I have hit a halt on my baking part of the deal. Unfortunately without a good stone or ability to modify my oven, I have to deal with this home gas oven until I get my WFO going in March. The dough making is only getting better though, which is a thumbs up to me!

I have a set of 3 videos that have my process of making Neapolitan dough and baking pizzas.

Please watch in HD!

Neapolitan Dough (Mixing Technique) Part I

Neapolitan Dough (Balling Technique) Part II

Neapolitan Dough (Baking) Part III

The first video explains how I mix and knead dough, it includes the ingredients used and my process for getting dough to its "point of pasta"

The second video explains my technique of balling dough which I learned from watching videos of the guys at Da Michele ball dough. The second part of the video labeled "Prep" shows the differences between 2 types of San Marzano tomatoes made by Cento (One labeled DOP, the other was "Certified") incredibly the differences were huge!

The third video explains my process of pushing out (slapping technique), dressing, and baking the pie. As I stated in earlier posts, I do not have a stone anymore, so all my bakes are done by stretching out the pie onto a pizza pan, dressed, then baked all on the pan.

My oven was preheated to 550 for an hour, broiler on for 15-20 min, then cooked under the broiler the whole time, bake for the pie in the video was done in 2 min.

I am happy I was able to document these videos and I would love for you guys that are really involved in this forum to show off what you do with your dough and baking. I would greatly appreciate it!

Recipe for dough in video:

450g Caputo 00
279g Bottled Spring Water (62% at 55°F)
12.6g Salt (2.8%)
.10g yeast (0.23%)

Made 3, 240g dough balls.

Bulk Fermented for 24 hours, Balled for 10. 34 hour total fermentation.

The videos tell the rest!

Here's some pics of the pie! I was limited on my pics due to the amount of footage I took.
Dressed un-baked pie, baked pie, and crumb shots..

Enjoy!

dimitrios · « **Reply #135 on:** February 01, 2012, 01:29:20 AM »

Quote from: Jordan on January 08, 2012, 12:30:03 AM

and more!

Yesterday I was super impressed about Da Michele's pizza seeing this pics, however, today I saw another link posted here to the YouTube video of the American girl visiting them, there I saw the pizza was like a French crepe, super soggy, very wet, and you can't eat it without fork and knife.

Slightly dissapointed. I thought there was supposed to be at least a crisp?

It gave me another idea though to look into the Indian Nan bread, as Da Michele's looks exactly like it, soft and strong.

Redshirt · « **Reply #136 on:** February 01, 2012, 01:51:39 AM »

Great videos Jordan, thanks

TXCraig1 · « **Reply #137 on:** February 01, 2012, 09:49:15 AM »

Jordan,

You've come a long way really fast. Looks like the only thing holding you back now is heat.

Very nice.

Craig

Jackie Tran · « **Reply #138 on:** February 01, 2012, 04:11:46 PM »

Jordan, nice job on the videos. I like the video comparison of the tomatoes. I'll have to give Cento DOP another try based on your video investigation. Your method and dough looks good to me. It looks healthy, but of course the true test is the taste test. It'll be interesting to follow your progress from the developement of your own technique and methods to when you get your wfo. I bet you can't wait to see how different the pies will be with some high heat.

Quote from: Jordan on February 01, 2012, 12:35:20 AM

Chau that pie looks awesome! A 3 hour dough? Was it easy to eat? I know Coccia swears that you can get a digestible dough in 7 hours, but most of us who use Caputo would disagree with such a short and rushed fermentation period. I am very interested in your experiment and it should how important heat is when it comes to Neapolitan. If you didnt tell anyone how long that dough fermented Im sure most of use wouldnt of questioned.. What was your mixing/kneading method for this dough? Thanks for sharing!

Yes it was easy to eat. The texture was the best I've made. I've made a digestible HG dough in 10 hours before so I wouldn't be surprise if the time was less for caputo 00. Jordan, most here would disagree with any thought that isn't traditional, popular, or anything that deviates from anything that is quoted by famous pizzaiolos. But IMO, there is more to bread and pizza than what is commonly known and more yet to be discovered. I don't limit or box myself by these boundaries. It's good to understand them, but it's also good to test what is known and unknown.

Even heat distribution is only one aspect of pizza. You can have the best NP oven in the world and turn out sh*t for pizza if your dough isn't right or you don't know how to make necessary adjustments.

Yes I agree. If I didn't tell you and just fed you the pizza, I'm sure you would've loved it and sang praises as I did. The taste, texture, and experience is what is important. Everything else is just hype. As for the method, it's still in it's infancy and experimental phase. Isn't every batch experimental? Do a search for LMB, lazy man's bread and read. That's the technique I used. Hydration is also much higher than 60%.

Keep up the good work Jordan,
Chau

TXCraig1 · « **Reply #139 on:** February 01, 2012, 04:21:49 PM »

Quote from: Jackie Tran on February 01, 2012, 04:11:46 PM

Jordan, nice job on the videos. I like the video comparison of the tomatoes. I'll have to give Cento DOP another try based on your video investigation.

I thought they stopped making them some time ago?

CL