Author Topic: My Neapolitan Progress  (Read 35999 times)

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Offline dellavecchia

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Re: My Neapolitan Progress
« Reply #125 on: January 28, 2012, 09:32:09 PM »
On the times I have been there, bake time was between 50 seconds and about a minute. I also doubt they could put through the 1200 odd pizze they typically do on any given day, if bake times were 2 minutes.

Peter

Peter - I meant to say they can approach the two minute mark. Here is an example of a 90 second pie, and possibly longer for the subsequent ones behind. They stack in 5 pies. I would assume that time of day and temperature of oven may dictate baking time, but the dough must not suffer in terms of pliability:



But you are correct, there are other videos showing a 50-60 second bake.

John


Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: My Neapolitan Progress
« Reply #126 on: January 28, 2012, 10:47:15 PM »
Chau,

Perhaps were are slightly off the mark in terms of what we both see as "toughness."  What I experienced in Napoli, and I believe Jordan can attest to this as well, you could never lift a "slice" of the pizza in the air, because it would just come apart.  It is that soft and supple.  That is why it is eaten with a fork/knife or as a portafoglio.  From what I see in a lot of photos here are pizza that are overly "doughy."  Now, they might not necessarily be tough, but they would have what I would describe as too much chew.

Salvatore

Salvatore, this is a good point.   A crust may not be tough, but it may also not be pillowy or light as a cloud either.   It's rare that I see a NP crumb shot that makes me think, now that is LIGHT!  How many times have you been to Da Michele, and the different times you were there, was the crust and crumb consistently light and great in you opinion? 
Also do you have any pictures saved away of their crumb that you can post for the rest of us who have yet to have the pleasure?

Thanks,
Chau
« Last Edit: February 02, 2012, 07:18:07 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline salvatoregianpaolo

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Re: My Neapolitan Progress
« Reply #127 on: January 29, 2012, 02:08:18 PM »
Chau,

I was only at Da Michele one time, but I think it is a characteristic trait of pizza napoletana that it have on overall sense of "lightness."  It is not hard to consume an entire pie by yourself, and actually one might not be enough! 

Unfortunately, I do not believe taking pictures from the inside of restaurants.  Just my personal opinion, and I have no problem with anyone who chooses to do so, I just view eating as a sacred ritual of sorts, and find taking pictures creates a circus-like atmosphere.  Again, just my opinion.

I will say this:  I've been to Da Michele, and it was fabulous.  Classic.  However, what I experienced at Gino Sorbillo was in another league!  Now that I've been to Da Michele I don't know if I would need to return.  Gino Sorbillo (and Salvo) will be on my short list for this year, though.

Grazie,
Salvatore

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: My Neapolitan Progress
« Reply #128 on: January 29, 2012, 03:02:40 PM »
Thanks for the reply Salvatore.  I understand your point of view about pictures.  I think I would probably have the same point of view if I was more familiar with the culture and this style of pizza.  B/c I am such a visual learner, I rely heavily on visual confirmation and textural discriptions to be able to learn more about this pizza until I can make it to the mother land myself.

Interesting, your experience between Da Michele and Gino Sorbillo.  I have heard that their pizzas are quite different in texture and taste with fans of both pizzas.  You can see the differences in how the dough is handled.  Can you describe to me the differences between the 2 and what you like about one over the other?

Thank you,
Chau
« Last Edit: January 29, 2012, 03:06:42 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline salvatoregianpaolo

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Re: My Neapolitan Progress
« Reply #129 on: January 29, 2012, 03:13:42 PM »
Chau,

You are correct! 

Watching a pizza being shaped at Da Michele: subtle, caressing, gentle. 
Watching Gino Sorbillo shape dough:  he attacks it!!  He makes the dough do what HE wants it to do!

Very different, but both great results.  I found Da Michele to be classic, understated.  Pure simplicity.  At Gino Sorbillo, on the other hand, the taste had "pop," the dough incredibly supple and LIGHT.  The taste was incredible.  My wife and I were both surprised at how large the pizzas were at both places, but especially at GS, because of the size, it really made you remark, "My gosh, feel how light this is!" 

Offline kiwipete

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Re: My Neapolitan Progress
« Reply #130 on: January 29, 2012, 03:50:59 PM »
Back in 2010 Marco (pizzanapoletana) said about the difference between Da Michele and Gino Sorbillo:

Quote
Da Michele's dough still blow off of the water most wild yeast dough around the world. One day I will cover in full the reasons, but in the main time you just have to trust me on that ;-). Again, As I still like it, I actually believe that Gino's pizza do not retain all the wonders of pizza napoletana and therefore it should be one of many other tasted but not the only one or one of two. I was in Naples last week and a senior guy at VPN was actually described Gino's pizza as almost not neapolitan...

Peter

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: My Neapolitan Progress
« Reply #131 on: January 29, 2012, 04:40:39 PM »
Jordan, not sure how close or far from authentic NP this texture is but it was very light, tender, and delicious.   My wfo was still semi hot from yesterday's bake so it didn't take long to heat up.   I meant to make a 6-8 hour tester dough but put too much idy and the dough was ready in 3 hours.   :-D   Anyways I had no choice but to bake these doughs up and I was very surprise by the result.  

Though the heat was very uneven, the floor too hot at 960F, and not enough flames rolling over the top, the pies still came out very good.  I rarely like my NP pies that I make, but these were good.  :D

I also tend to open my dough too much, so for these I purposely made them thicker than usual, which i do like.



A few crumb shots from the above pie and his friends.

« Last Edit: February 02, 2012, 07:26:32 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline salvatoregianpaolo

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Re: My Neapolitan Progress
« Reply #132 on: January 30, 2012, 11:26:07 AM »
Back in 2010 Marco (pizzanapoletana) said about the difference between Da Michele and Gino Sorbillo:

Peter

Peter,

I think this is a bit disingenuous, for surely a quick search of Marco's posts concerning Gino Sorbillo will also reveal it is one of his favorites, it is on his short-list of places to visit, and, along with a few others, in a league of its own.

Marco has also stated Gino Sorbillo tends to be dryer than Da Michele, but that was several years ago.  On the day I visited, I found quite the opposite. 

Grazie,
Salvatore

Offline Jordan

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Re: My Neapolitan Progress
« Reply #133 on: February 01, 2012, 12:35:20 AM »
Wow, absolutely incredible discussions going on here.

Ill try my best to scroll down the replies and add my 2 cents to anything I can.

Scott and Marlon, thanks for the kind words on my dough. I recently baked a couple pies that I will elaborate more on as these posts continue, but needless to say, I now understand the importance of heat.  Omid also thoroughly explained the heat factors of a WFO in depth and it really broadened my understanding on not only WFO's, but heat sources in general. My oven has a "good" broiler, and I am capable of getting my pie close to the broiler. Scott I promised you I would measure, and I have found out that from the top of my pizza to the broiler, its about 3 inches.

My WFO should be in my arms around the middle of March! Until then, I suppose I have to just deal with it.

Chau, in reference to reply #115, thanks a lot man. I have been baking anywhere from 2.5 min - 3.5 min and I do notice that the one I made that was 2 min which I will post was very tender and had the flop I was looking for. I dont notice much between 2.5-3 min though, but thats also in a gas oven, as you all know a second could change everything for a bake in a WFO and thats not from experience, just from talking to people with "experience"

Matt, thanks, I usually only make a 3 ball batch and I put it in a standard plastic pizza proofing box most restaurants would use, some day when I want to make high volume I will def experiment with filling them up. Would I get different results by placing the small batch of 3 close to each other? Let me know, I am interested in this.

BurntFingers, I have made a batch recently with bottled water (after so many attempts with tap) didnt notice a taste difference at all, and yet again I wasnt curious about water for flavor, more over the minerals and the hardness of the water. Also Im pretty sure I mentioned the little bit about having a nuclear power plant close to my town which is known for affecting our water somewhat with radiation. I am interesting in getting this filtered water dispenser since its not that expensive and its probably better for me to start drinking filtered water regardless. After reading about the positives of filtered tap water Im on the fence of being sold on it, but I will research more on my local tap until I make any purchases.

For the topic of bake times, I would really love to chime in, but unfortunately I dont own a WFO (YET!) and until then it will probably still take me a long time to really determine the length of bake times in terms of seconds and its affect on the overall product. Since VPN states a Pizza Napoletana should be baked under 2 min (90 sec. tops) I would postulate that as long as your bakes are under 90 sec then youre doing the right thing. Since the temps of a true Neapolitan oven are very high and extremely fierce, I could imagine there being a significant difference between a 50 sec bake and a 60 sec bake. Ive even heard about people doming a pie too long and it igniting in flames! As for hydration dealing with bake times, I would have to agree as well. Da Michele is rumored to use 64.5% hydration and they have extremely supple dough that nearly needs any effort to push out, the bakes there are quick, 50-60 sec for sure and the oven is so good they dont need to mess with it much. Watch videos of the forniao at keste and theyre performing a show for you while they bake your pizza.. I cant attest to the method of baking creating a difference in product, but Im sure it does.  

Salvatore, the pizza at Da Michele is impossible to lift up a slice, you're right. When I cut wedges and tried lifting it up it would just flop all around and I was just embarrassing myself. A knife and fork is very necessary.

John, thanks for that video, Ive been looking for a picture of Da Michele's cut wood for reference. Do you have any good info on wood cutting for a WFO? Thanks!

Chau that pie looks awesome! A 3 hour dough? Was it easy to eat? I know Coccia swears that you can get a digestible dough in 7 hours, but most of us who use Caputo would disagree with such a short and rushed fermentation period. I am very interested in your experiment and it should how important heat is when it comes to Neapolitan. If you didnt tell anyone how long that dough fermented Im sure most of use wouldnt of questioned.. What was your mixing/kneading method for this dough? Thanks for sharing!
-Jordan


Offline Jordan

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Re: My Neapolitan Progress
« Reply #134 on: February 01, 2012, 01:07:25 AM »
Hey everyone, I recently made a set of videos for my whole process of making Neapolitan dough. From the mixing to the bake. I even through in a section where I compare two types of San Marzano tomatoes! Before I get into this, I wanted to really reach out to you guys and see if we can all come together on this idea I have been thinking about. Since we're in a time were technology is so vast, I would assume most of you guys here have video cameras, right? Or at least a laptop with some means of video recording? A cell phone that can record? Something!? Anywho, I would like to start a project in which all of us Neapolitan Pizza Makers document our process of making dough - to the bake; just like I have done. I dont expect fancy editing or background music, just a simple set of videos of your process so we can all SEE what kind of experiments we are up too!

Neapolitan pizza is the oldest form of pizza and its full of simplicity. But, it seems as if its a marvel for us who live in the states and arent capable of waking up in Naples every morning and riding a bike to a local pizzeria! I would love for us to be able to add to the growth of this beautiful product by spreading media that is the best form we have available right now besides being there in person... Video!
What I would like to see people start posting is...

Videos of the mixing/kneading process, either by hand or with a mixer.
Videos of the balling process, including information on the fermentation.
Videos of the comparisons of ingredients; type of salt, water, leaven, flour, tomato, cheese, misc topping, ect...
Videos of the baking process, either in a home oven, modified grill, WFO, ect...
Videos of the additional information included in your process, where you learned it from, ect...

Would you want to be part of this?

I will keep posting videos of my techniques for you guys to watch and critique and give me advice on something I should change about my method or experiment with.

It would be really incredible for you guys to join in on this and see how it works out. It would be like a building video encyclopedia for Neapolitan Pizza!

My recent bake was successful, but I have hit a halt on my baking part of the deal. Unfortunately without a good stone or ability to modify my oven, I have to deal with this home gas oven until I get my WFO going in March. The dough making is only getting better though, which is a thumbs up to me!

I have a set of 3 videos that have my process of making Neapolitan dough and baking pizzas.

Please watch in HD!

Neapolitan Dough (Mixing Technique) Part I


Neapolitan Dough (Balling Technique) Part II


Neapolitan Dough (Baking) Part III


The first video explains how I mix and knead dough, it includes the ingredients used and my process for getting dough to its "point of pasta"

The second video explains my technique of balling dough which I learned from watching videos of the guys at Da Michele ball dough. The second part of the video labeled "Prep" shows the differences between 2 types of San Marzano tomatoes made by Cento (One labeled DOP, the other was "Certified") incredibly the differences were huge!

The third video explains my process of pushing out (slapping technique), dressing, and baking the pie. As I stated in earlier posts, I do not have a stone anymore, so all my bakes are done by stretching out the pie onto a pizza pan, dressed, then baked all on the pan.

My oven was preheated to 550 for an hour, broiler on for 15-20 min, then cooked under the broiler the whole time, bake for the pie in the video was done in 2 min.

I am happy I was able to document these videos and I would love for you guys that are really involved in this forum to show off what you do with your dough and baking. I would greatly appreciate it!

Recipe for dough in video:

450g Caputo 00
279g Bottled Spring Water (62% at 55F)
12.6g Salt (2.8%)
.10g yeast (0.23%)

Made 3, 240g dough balls.

Bulk Fermented for 24 hours, Balled for 10. 34 hour total fermentation.

The videos tell the rest!

Here's some pics of the pie! I was limited on my pics due to the amount of footage I took.
Dressed un-baked pie, baked pie, and crumb shots..

Enjoy!
-Jordan

Offline dimitrios

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Re: My Neapolitan Progress
« Reply #135 on: February 01, 2012, 01:29:20 AM »
and more!
Yesterday I was super impressed about Da Michele's pizza seeing this pics, however, today I saw another link posted here to the YouTube video of the American girl visiting them, there I saw the pizza was like a French crepe, super soggy, very wet, and you can't eat it without fork and knife.

Slightly dissapointed. I thought there was supposed to be at least a crisp?

It gave me another idea though to look into the Indian Nan bread, as Da Michele's looks exactly like it, soft and strong.

Offline Redshirt

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Re: My Neapolitan Progress
« Reply #136 on: February 01, 2012, 01:51:39 AM »
Great videos Jordan, thanks

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: My Neapolitan Progress
« Reply #137 on: February 01, 2012, 09:49:15 AM »
Jordan,

You've come a long way really fast. Looks like the only thing holding you back now is heat.

Very nice.

Craig
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: My Neapolitan Progress
« Reply #138 on: February 01, 2012, 04:11:46 PM »
Jordan, nice job on the videos.  I like the video comparison of the tomatoes.  I'll have to give Cento DOP another try based on your video investigation.   Your method and dough looks good to me.  It looks healthy, but of course the true test is the taste test.  It'll be interesting to follow your progress from the developement of your own technique and methods to when you get your wfo.  I bet you can't wait to see how different the pies will be with some high heat.  
Chau that pie looks awesome! A 3 hour dough? Was it easy to eat? I know Coccia swears that you can get a digestible dough in 7 hours, but most of us who use Caputo would disagree with such a short and rushed fermentation period. I am very interested in your experiment and it should how important heat is when it comes to Neapolitan. If you didnt tell anyone how long that dough fermented Im sure most of use wouldnt of questioned.. What was your mixing/kneading method for this dough? Thanks for sharing!

Yes it was easy to eat.  The texture was the best I've made.  I've made a digestible HG dough in 10 hours before so I wouldn't be surprise if the time was less for caputo 00.  Jordan, most here would disagree with any thought that isn't traditional, popular, or anything that deviates from anything that is quoted by famous pizzaiolos.  But IMO, there is more to bread and pizza than what is commonly known and more yet to be discovered.  I don't limit or box myself by these boundaries.  It's good to understand them, but it's also good to test what is known and unknown.

Even heat distribution is only one aspect of pizza.  You can have the best NP oven in the world and turn out sh*t for pizza if your dough isn't right or you don't know how to make necessary adjustments.

Yes I agree.  If I didn't tell you and just fed you the pizza, I'm sure you would've loved it and sang praises as I did.  The taste, texture, and experience is what is important.  Everything else is just hype.   As for the method, it's still in it's infancy and experimental phase.  Isn't every batch experimental?  Do a search for LMB, lazy man's bread and read.  That's the technique I used.  Hydration is also much higher than 60%.

Keep up the good work Jordan,
Chau
« Last Edit: February 02, 2012, 07:34:57 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: My Neapolitan Progress
« Reply #139 on: February 01, 2012, 04:21:49 PM »
Jordan, nice job on the videos.  I like the video comparison of the tomatoes.  I'll have to give Cento DOP another try based on your video investigation.  

I thought they stopped making them some time ago?

CL
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: My Neapolitan Progress
« Reply #140 on: February 01, 2012, 04:44:09 PM »
Cento did stop making the DOP labeled product. You must have found one of the last cans. According to Cento, the product in the "Certified" can is the same SM tomato and held to the same quality standards.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13517.msg135399.html#msg135399

CL
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline Jordan

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Re: My Neapolitan Progress
« Reply #141 on: February 01, 2012, 09:41:03 PM »
Cento did stop making the DOP labeled product. You must have found one of the last cans. According to Cento, the product in the "Certified" can is the same SM tomato and held to the same quality standards.

Understood. But, my tongue, eyes, hands, and nose told me otherwise.

Me and John talked about this matter, and I finally got my hands on the last two DOP cans in my area. So, in order to truly understand I tasted them side by side. And you guys have the video to see proof.

I hope you guys enjoy the videos.
-Jordan


Offline TXCraig1

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Re: My Neapolitan Progress
« Reply #142 on: February 01, 2012, 09:57:18 PM »
I don't doubt your senses or the video. Notwithstanding, there is going to be variation between cans from the same pack year let alone different years as in the cans you tested.

CL
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline Jordan

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Re: My Neapolitan Progress
« Reply #143 on: February 01, 2012, 11:03:51 PM »
I don't doubt your senses or the video. Notwithstanding, there is going to be variation between cans from the same pack year let alone different years as in the cans you tested.

CL

For sure Craig, I agree 100%, even the "Certified" ones taste different depending on the store I get them from. I can see that the year its packed could hold drastic measures in the tomatoes quality. What tomato do you prefer Craig?

Here's a video I just made of me playing guitar. Enjoy!

-Jordan

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: My Neapolitan Progress
« Reply #144 on: February 01, 2012, 11:26:54 PM »
For sure Craig, I agree 100%, even the "Certified" ones taste different depending on the store I get them from. I can see that the year its packed could hold drastic measures in the tomatoes quality. What tomato do you prefer Craig?

Here's a video I just made of me playing guitar. Enjoy!



I like the Cento Italian in the 35oz can.

CL
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: My Neapolitan Progress
« Reply #145 on: February 02, 2012, 06:53:38 AM »
I like the Cento Italian in the 35oz can.

CL

+1

Every time I buy them, I wonder why I spend more for DOP.

John

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Re: My Neapolitan Progress
« Reply #146 on: February 02, 2012, 08:25:32 AM »
Another vote for the Cento Italian.  Not D.O.P, not Certified, but imported from Italy.

Offline wheelman

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Re: My Neapolitan Progress
« Reply #147 on: February 02, 2012, 09:35:50 AM »
Me too!  one of the Scotts here put us onto Cento Italian peeled tomatoes in 35oz can. 

Offline Jordan

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Re: My Neapolitan Progress
« Reply #148 on: February 03, 2012, 11:57:43 PM »
I have to tries these tomatoes you guys are raving about! I have recently found these, they might be interesting to some of you guys..

http://www.fineproductsinternational.com/

1)Look to the left and click the word "Tomatoes"
2)Scroll down till you see "Cento San Marzano Certified Tomatoes in a glass jar 20 oz"

Theyre jared San Marzano's by Cento, and theyre certified!

I havent seen these in stores, so I guess you can get them at this website online, the downside is youre paying the same amount for 8oz less.. Oh well, I am interested in the flavor.


So, after many experiments with using less and less yeast for my 450g flour batches, it seems as if I am hitting a plateau in the "fermentation" field. I have been using .10g of yeast, which is .023% to my flour. 70-72F ambient temp for the whole fermentation process, and about 30-34 hours fermentation and although my technique of mixing and kneading dough is progressing, I am not sure about the fermentation process completely, I read back on this blog to see what was going on with my old experiments and what people wrote in regards to my experiments and John said I should try doing a 12+12 fermentation, which intrigued me to do a fermentation that had the same amount of bulk and balled time. Of course with out a WFO my results arent showing up the way they really should, but I am indeed in the experimental stage and learning as much as I can before the WFO comes.

Do you guys have any ideas at to when do is ready to be used? I know its more than just times and temps, even though those are variables that subject change, I would like to know what the "point of readiness" is for dough, if you will? Haha

I will experiment more with my fermentation and my next experiment will be letting my dough rest a little less than 34 hours and back to the 26-28 hour mark, but with a similar bulk/ball time. Maybe 13+13 or 14+14 and see how that works; John if you read this, let me know what you think!

It seemed like my dough was a lot better to work with when it was at 26 hours of fermentation, but I was doing 22+4 and the balls were still similar to the way they were when i balled them (round, kept shape, ect..) and when I do the 8-10 hour ball, they flatted out more especially at 62% hydration with my new mixing/kneading techniques. So I want to shoot for this 26-28 hour mark with a different spin on things to see how it comes out because I honestly dont want to use even less yeast, .10g is nothing... Or, do you guys think I should try lowing the yeast?

This is tough for me.. All the help would be appreciated!
-Jordan

Offline andreguidon

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Re: My Neapolitan Progress
« Reply #149 on: February 04, 2012, 04:55:23 AM »
Hi Jordan,

Try lowering the Hydration (60%) and going 3% on the salt, i think you will be intrigued how 2% less water and 0.2% of salt makes a difference, you will see that the dough holds better the longer fermentation.
"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication." Leonardo da Vinci