My Neapolitan Progress

[TXCraig1]

Cento did stop making the DOP labeled product. You must have found one of the last cans. According to Cento, the product in the "Certified" can is the same SM tomato and held to the same quality standards.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13517.msg135399.html#msg135399

CL

[Jordan]

Cento did stop making the DOP labeled product. You must have found one of the last cans. According to Cento, the product in the "Certified" can is the same SM tomato and held to the same quality standards.

Understood. But, my tongue, eyes, hands, and nose told me otherwise.

Me and John talked about this matter, and I finally got my hands on the last two DOP cans in my area. So, in order to truly understand I tasted them side by side. And you guys have the video to see proof.

I hope you guys enjoy the videos.

[TXCraig1]

I don't doubt your senses or the video. Notwithstanding, there is going to be variation between cans from the same pack year let alone different years as in the cans you tested.

CL

[Jordan]

I don't doubt your senses or the video. Notwithstanding, there is going to be variation between cans from the same pack year let alone different years as in the cans you tested.

CL

For sure Craig, I agree 100%, even the "Certified" ones taste different depending on the store I get them from. I can see that the year its packed could hold drastic measures in the tomatoes quality. What tomato do you prefer Craig?

Here's a video I just made of me playing guitar. Enjoy!

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSRDbwKT3II" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSRDbwKT3II</a>

[TXCraig1]

For sure Craig, I agree 100%, even the "Certified" ones taste different depending on the store I get them from. I can see that the year its packed could hold drastic measures in the tomatoes quality. What tomato do you prefer Craig?

Here's a video I just made of me playing guitar. Enjoy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSRDbwKT3II

I like the Cento Italian in the 35oz can.

CL

[dellavecchia]

I like the Cento Italian in the 35oz can.

CL

+1

Every time I buy them, I wonder why I spend more for DOP.

John

[parallei]

Another vote for the Cento Italian.  Not D.O.P, not Certified, but imported from Italy.

[wheelman]

Me too!  one of the Scotts here put us onto Cento Italian peeled tomatoes in 35oz can. 

[Jordan]

I have to tries these tomatoes you guys are raving about! I have recently found these, they might be interesting to some of you guys..

http://www.fineproductsinternational.com/

1)Look to the left and click the word "Tomatoes"
2)Scroll down till you see "Cento San Marzano Certified Tomatoes in a glass jar 20 oz"

Theyre jared San Marzano's by Cento, and theyre certified!

I havent seen these in stores, so I guess you can get them at this website online, the downside is youre paying the same amount for 8oz less.. Oh well, I am interested in the flavor.


So, after many experiments with using less and less yeast for my 450g flour batches, it seems as if I am hitting a plateau in the "fermentation" field. I have been using .10g of yeast, which is .023% to my flour. 70-72°F ambient temp for the whole fermentation process, and about 30-34 hours fermentation and although my technique of mixing and kneading dough is progressing, I am not sure about the fermentation process completely, I read back on this blog to see what was going on with my old experiments and what people wrote in regards to my experiments and John said I should try doing a 12+12 fermentation, which intrigued me to do a fermentation that had the same amount of bulk and balled time. Of course with out a WFO my results arent showing up the way they really should, but I am indeed in the experimental stage and learning as much as I can before the WFO comes.

Do you guys have any ideas at to when do is ready to be used? I know its more than just times and temps, even though those are variables that subject change, I would like to know what the "point of readiness" is for dough, if you will? Haha

I will experiment more with my fermentation and my next experiment will be letting my dough rest a little less than 34 hours and back to the 26-28 hour mark, but with a similar bulk/ball time. Maybe 13+13 or 14+14 and see how that works; John if you read this, let me know what you think!

It seemed like my dough was a lot better to work with when it was at 26 hours of fermentation, but I was doing 22+4 and the balls were still similar to the way they were when i balled them (round, kept shape, ect..) and when I do the 8-10 hour ball, they flatted out more especially at 62% hydration with my new mixing/kneading techniques. So I want to shoot for this 26-28 hour mark with a different spin on things to see how it comes out because I honestly dont want to use even less yeast, .10g is nothing... Or, do you guys think I should try lowing the yeast?

This is tough for me.. All the help would be appreciated!

[andreguidon]

Hi Jordan,

Try lowering the Hydration (60%) and going 3% on the salt, i think you will be intrigued how 2% less water and 0.2% of salt makes a difference, you will see that the dough holds better the longer fermentation.

[BurntFingers]

To those of you looking to modify a standard electric self cleaning oven or any oven temp control.  Please remember that wood ignition takes place at around 525 degrees F.  Sometimes as low as 400 degrees F when the conditions are right.  Most stoves are built into cabinetry or adjacent to cabinetry.  Close enough that the outside of the oven could reach the ignition point of the surrounding wood or composite material.  The inside might be 900 to 1000 degrees and after significant time the outside could reach ignition temperatures.  I could see the plastic parts of the stove melting or burning up when that happens.  The smell of the melting, burning plastic could result in toxic fumes.  No pizza is worth the burning down you house or breathing in those fumes or the fumes from the wiring insulation melting.  Please we need all the pizzaioli we can get don't kill yourself or get sick.

That is why wood burning cook stoves or wood fired heating appliances & their chimney stacks must be a significant distance from any flammable/combustable surface.  Over time the material will dry out and catch fire. Make sure your stove has the clearance all around if you are going to heat it up to over max ratings.  You don't want the studs behind the sheet rock to start to smolder after you go to bed and burn your house down.  Move the stove far from the wall or place enough thermal insulation behind the stove.   Just be very careful. 

I learned my lesson when I was a kid and decided to mix my own rocket fuel  for my model airplanes' afterburner in my mom's kitchen.  It ended up that we had to evacuate a 12 story apartment building in NYC.  Fortunately no one got hurt (boy was she pissed off when she came home).  That is another story with many more details. BTW I never got it off the ground.

[Jordan]

The last couple of days have been pure confusion for me..

After a conversation with Omid I rushed to the kitchen to make a batch of dough in despair of experimenting with new techniques.

The recipe was..

450g 00 Caputo Pizzeria
279g h2o (62% hy @ 55°F)
12.6g salt (2.8%)
.10g (.023%)

So, as you can see, this is the same recipe I have been using in my last couple of experiments, but this time, my results have been extremely different.

My mixing/kneading technique was...

-Dissolve salt in water
-Dissolve yeast in salt water
-Slowly add small amounts of flour until lumps are gone, "fluffing" my fingers through the dough quickly every so often to incorporate more air
-Mixed in all flour until homogenous
-Rested 5 min
-Kneaded 5 min
-Rested 5 min
-Kneaded until passing test for "point of pasta"
-Rested 20 min after kneading (I think this is called a riposo?)
-20 or so, tiny stretch and folds until a smooth skin was formed

The different things I did in the routine was, I decreased my modified autolyse time from 10 min each to 5 min, for a total of 10 min of rest; and the addition of a riposo.

This new method created the smoothest dough skin I have ever experienced and it was also the first time I tested dough for "point of pasta", needless to say, this changed everything.

The dough was bulk fermented for 2 hours, which is way less time than my usual 20-24 hour bulk time. It made such a difference balling so quickly in the fermentation process. The dough balls stayed extremely round and they didnt show any signs of "hydration" (basically, the dough was 62% hydration but it felt like it was under 60%) Everything about this experiment was so different than usual.

I checked up on the dough after 24 hours and there was no signs of fermentation at all.. The balls slightly flattened out, but they seemed a lot smaller than usual even being 240g (which is what I usually weigh my dough balls out to) The dough balls seemed a lot more dense then usual.

I baked the first dough ball at 36 hours which is a little longer than Im used to fermenting. The results were so strange.. When I pushed the dough out it had no gas in it at all... The dough ball was very easy to work with, and probably the best I have worked with in the sense of slapping out the dough. There was no air to push into the cornicione, but I got a lot of even leoparding! It was incredible!

The second ball was baked a couple hours ago at 46 hours fermentation. The dough finally got some air in it and the cornicione had some character, but, still not enough gas in the dough... Although it had beautiful leoparding!

I have another dough ball left that I will bake tomorrow at 58 hours fermentation. Which is the most I have ever let my dough ferment for, but I have a good feeling with this little amount of yeast and new method, I might be able to get the results I am looking for.

I will try this same technique with my next batch of dough, accept I will up my yeast from .10g to .20g and see if it will be ready at that 36 hour mark I am shooting for!

I am very very intrigued with this new method of making dough. I think my next experiment will be 2 batches with the same recipe using .20g of yeast and the other using .30g of yeast. Also I want to mess around with using the traditional balling technique. So much to experiment with!!!!

I love pizza.

[dellavecchia]

Jordan - I am glad to see you are getting better results with your mixing. The dough ball looks like it should - nice and smooth and lively.

John

[Jackie Tran]

Jordan aside from making a smoother dough that developed little air and demonstrated more leoparding, how was the texture of the finished crust and crumb compared to before, using the other method?

Chau

[othafa9]

That is the look of a dough that is a long way from being ready....something definately went wrong somewhere....perhaps the yeast was misweighed?  Perhaps it was too cold?

[Jordan]

Jordan - I am glad to see you are getting better results with your mixing. The dough ball looks like it should - nice and smooth and lively.

Thanks John, its always nice getting compliments from you. I still owe you some pre-bake dough pictures, but unfortunately I abandoned my last dough ball due to work issues and when I was ready, the dough was a little too ready. Interestingly, I tasted the raw dough which was the first time I ever tasted dough and it was somewhat "gummy" in flavor. Just for your information, the dough was at 74 hours of fermentation when I tried it. Do you think tasting the dough at different stages is necessary? Whats your opinion on this?

Jordan aside from making a smoother dough that developed little air and demonstrated more leoparding, how was the texture of the finished crust and crumb compared to before, using the other method?

Chau, my oven did not work this morning when the dough was at its prime.. I pre-heated it 3 times and nothing happened.. I really hope my oven isnt broken due to the high temps I have been putting it through, and how old the oven is. I baked up 2 balls of the 3 but they were not ready in terms of fermentation, so I cant really answer your question. But, I am sure with my next batch using the same method and more yeast, I will be making a superior pizza to the ones previous.

That is the look of a dough that is a long way from being ready....something definately went wrong somewhere....perhaps the yeast was misweighed?  Perhaps it was too cold?

I agree, and it was weighed properly for sure. My ambient temp was around 69-71°F through out the fermentation. The dough was ready around 55 hours of fermentation, but my oven did not pre-heat at all when I went to turn it on. The dough at 60 hours was filled with air and had much tinier air bubbles than usual, but unfortunately I was not able to bake it up..

I am making another batch tomorrow morning and hopefully I can see some changes with the fermentation being more on point.

Why do you guys think I had smaller air bubbles than usual and was able to create a cornicione with more leoparding? I even fermented longer and still had tiny air bubbles. What could be the cause of this if my recipe and ambient temp stayed the same?

Was it the short bulk and extended balled fermentation? Was it because I formed more gluten strength in the dough by kneading it to a point where it past my "test"? Was it because of the soft skin I formed around the dough flesh?

I am very curious to hear everyones thoughts on this.

Thank you.

[dellavecchia]

Why do you guys think I had smaller air bubbles than usual and was able to create a cornicione with more leoparding? I even fermented longer and still had tiny air bubbles. What could be the cause of this if my recipe and ambient temp stayed the same?

Jordan - The answer in my mind is very simple: you are developing the gluten better in your mixing regimen. Your previous attempts, the ones where the dough melts into a pancake, were severely underdeveloped. This allows the gas built up during fermentation to escape the weak gluten pockets and form into large bubbles. If you look at the crumb of your previous attempts, you see a dense, flat bottom layer and huge air packets above. Your use of minuscule amounts of yeast was masked by what you considered excessive air bubbles, leading to even lower amounts of yeast. Omid's help has gotten you exponentially better results, so now you understand what good gluten development looks like and how that plays a role in the final product.

When you develop the gluten correctly the pockets will trap and hold the gas, which translates into what you consider smaller bubbles. This will lead to an airy crumb throughout the crust.

Also, the longer you ferment the better chance of leoparding. Now understand that you can produce leoparding on an 18 hour dough - or even less time - so don't think you need to go 72 hours to make perfect pizza.

John

[Jordan]

During a recent attempt, I tried to time my kneading and see how long it takes for me to reach the point of pasta, and surprisingly it took longer than I thought. I will keep tinkering around with different kneading regiments.

It seems like resting your dough after you mix (modified autolyse) could definitely shorten your kneading time. I am just curious as to what times produce the quickest and best results. I have messed around with doing one 20 min rest, two 10 min rests, two five min rests, it seems like there is no real specific time for any given amount of dough. Something I have been getting great results with is the 20 min rest after kneading (I think they call this a riposo?) For some reason if I let the dough sit 20 min, then stretch and fold to form my dough flesh, it produces an extremely silky dough which I adore.

So, what would anyone recommend for a modified "autolyse"? I didnt get great results by only doing a 5 min 1st rest, but the 10 min 1st rest I have done a lot in the past really seems like it gets the dough hydrated thoroughly. Maybe I will try a 10 min rest then a 5 min rest and see how that works with getting my dough to where it needs to be. Possibly?

Also, I am using the same test to figure out when the dough is ready that the Japanese Pizzaioli uses. I tear off some dough and stretch it to see if it doesnt tear immediately. I think with my recent dough I might have been stretching my dough too much during the test and it resulted in my over kneading the dough till it passed a "test". I should of really payed attention to the video to see how he is looking for proper gluten formation and strength, not over working the dough, and being subtle with it as much as possible. I also like the way he balls his dough, which I will try soon. It seems with my way of balling dough it traps larger bubbles and I do enjoy the smaller bubbles that creates leoparding with my newer methods.

Also, the longer you ferment the better chance of leoparding. Now understand that you can produce leoparding on an 18 hour dough - or even less time - so don't think you need to go 72 hours to make perfect pizza.

John, thanks for the help! And trust me, I am very aware that a extremely long fermented dough does not produce "perfect" results, I simply had an interruption in my day that caused the dough to be neglected till it became an abandoned child.. It was over fermented near this 72 hour mark and by no means was I saying anything positive about this in my previous post. And I am not interested in making dough that takes 70+ hours to get to its optimal point because of the inconveniences it would have on my daily life. A 30-40 hour dough fits well into my schedule and thats what I plan to perfect, given my 69-72°F ambient temp where I keep my dough.

The experimentation will continue!

[Jordan]

Tonights bake:

64% hydration, 2.8% salt, .30g fresh yeast, 2 + 37 Hours fermentation @ 70-71°F

All I used was the broiler...

[Jackie Tran]

Nice looking pies Jordan.  How did they eat? How was the texture compared to your long bulked pies?