Author Topic: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents  (Read 36305 times)

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Offline trenz

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Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
« Reply #50 on: July 29, 2010, 05:10:39 PM »
Thanks Pete

I would rather not mention the name of the place but if reposting this formula some where would be helpful you certainly can do so. Do those hydration levels look right? He can throw it in the air with low risk of tearing so I imagine it is very low hydration. I get 50% not counting the oil. If the recipe was downsized for home use how would you mix it.

Also, about the yeast in the formula you posted, should I raise it for a 24 hour fermentation since your amounts were for 48 hours. Also, how many days in the fridge do you think it would last because I will probably split it in two for two smaller pies.

Thanks
Tony


scott123

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Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
« Reply #51 on: July 29, 2010, 05:29:03 PM »
Re; All Trumps

http://www.shorerestaurantsupply.com/index.html

should carry it- if they don't, they should have something comparable (Kyrol, Bouncer, etc.)

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
« Reply #52 on: July 29, 2010, 05:30:52 PM »
Tony,

I did read your earlier question but forgot to answer it. Sorry about that.

At 0.40% IDY, I think the dough should be usable after 24 hours instead of 48 hours. You might get another day out the dough but it will depend on keeping the dough on the cool side at all steps along the way. Usually when you want to extend the useful life of the dough, you decrease the amount of yeast, not increase it. If you lowered the yeast in this case, you might use 0.30% IDY. That should hold you for about three days. It also helps to use cool or cold water if you want to extend the useful life of the dough.

Since a gallon of water weighs 8.345 pounds, the hydration for the dough recipe you posted is about 50%, as you noted. However, oil can add to the rheology and viscosity of the dough. But, in this case, one quart of vegetable oil comes to about 1% of the weight of the formula flour. That will not increase the softness of the dough. In a home setting, the best machine to use in my experience for a dough with a hydration of 50% is a food processor. Of course, you would have to scale the recipe down to a small dough batch.

Peter

Offline Randy

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Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
« Reply #53 on: July 29, 2010, 07:51:35 PM »
I have tried several versions using VWG and none to date benefited from the inclusion.  All, as i remember, had a negative effect on both flavor and texture.

Randy

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
« Reply #54 on: July 29, 2010, 08:06:43 PM »
If one has access to high-protein flours/high-gluten flours, that is better than supplementing a weaker flour with VWG. And not everyone likes the taste profile of VWG. I personally don't mind the flavor impact of VWG and use it when I want to increase the protein content of a given flour. My advice for those who don't have access to high protein/high-gluten flours is to try out the VWG and see if it does the job.

Peter

Offline trenz

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Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
« Reply #55 on: July 29, 2010, 11:50:58 PM »
I just finished putting together the dough a little while ago and I will see how it comes out tomorrow. I had to add a few drops of water but it came together nicely.

The all trumps that I can get free in small amounts is the bleached and bromated. I am not sure if this is considered the best, but I was reading a few threads here and it seems this is the only all trumps I am likely to find since it is so widely used. I did find out that a 50lb bag is only $15, so I think I will pick up a bag for myself.

scott123, you mentioned Shore Supply so you must have seen I am from Brick. I have been in there a number of times but I can't remember if I looked for flour. I know the supplier for the guy I know is Meat Depot (I think they use another name also) in the Lakewood Industrial Park but I will check Shore first

Thanks for the help guys
Tony

scott123

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Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
« Reply #56 on: July 30, 2010, 07:05:25 AM »
Tony, when it comes to choosing flour, what's 'best' is relative.  First of all, flour in the U.S. is a massive business.  There's a few huge players such as ConAgra, Cargill and General Mills, and smaller ones such as Bay State Milling.  Each company has their highest protein 14ish percent bleached bromated flour. Imo, these are all pretty comparable.  All Trumps (GM) seems to have the most brand recognition/market share when it comes to NY pizzerias, but I don't think AT is inherently better than it's other 14% bleached bromated (b/b) brethren such as Kyrol and Bouncer.

Once you start looking at 14% b/b as a class rather than a single product, 'best' then becomes a question of specific styles.  For a puffy high volume high heat high water NY style pizza, then, yes, 14% b/b is definitely both one of the more popular as well as, imo, better choices. When you walk into a restaurant supply store in the NY metro area, pretty much all the pizza flours are 14% b/b. Slightly lower protein b/b flour (12.6 and up) can make phenomenal NY pizza as well.

I'm no expert on American style, but the pizza in this thread seems to benefit from a denser breadier crumb.  When you're talking dense chewy crumbs, KA is king. I think if you really want to produce a dense crumb from AT, you could, but I think KA (BF or SL) seems to lend itself to this trait far more easier.  So, if you want to make this pizza, in this thread, then I'd stick to KA.  If you're striving for NY style, though, then 14% b/b is the way to go.


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
« Reply #57 on: July 30, 2010, 10:01:57 AM »
My recollection is that Randy's recipe was intended to mimic a Papa John's style. Papa John's, like the other major national chains Pizza Hut, Domino's, and Little Caesars, does not use bromated flours (confirmed by PJ's itself and its ingredients list). I believe a good part of the reason is that, as national chains, they do business in California, which has strict cancer notice laws. It perhaps does not make good business sense to handle California differently than all of the other states.

My version of Randy's recipe produces what I have sometimes called a hybrid, or a cross between the American style and the NY style. I have never tried using a bromated flour to practice the recipe. However, I don't see any reason why it shouldn't work. But even if a nonbromated flour is used, such as the KASL or KABF, the crust won't be dense from the standpoint of being stiff or rigid. The large amounts of oil and sugar (including honey) will yield a soft and tender crumb because of the retention of significant amounts of moisture during baking. However, one is not likely to get a very large rim with large alveoles. The cellular structure will be fairly compact, even if soft and tender. At least that has been my experience with all of my Papa John's clones in my oven. I baked on screens at around 500 degrees F so that might also have restrained the oven spring.

Peter

Offline Randy

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Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
« Reply #58 on: July 30, 2010, 11:43:15 AM »
... However, one is not likely to get a very large rim with large alveoles. The cellular structure will be fairly compact, even if soft and tender. At least that has been my experience with all of my Papa John's clones in my oven. I baked on screens at around 500 degrees F so that might also have restrained the oven spring.

Peter

I get some pretty good size ones Peter.


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
« Reply #59 on: July 30, 2010, 12:08:02 PM »
Randy,

That looks really nice. Which recipe did you use and how did you bake the pizza (e.g., stone or screen) and at what oven rack position and temperature? Also, what hydration did you use? As I noted at Reply 11 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg58438.html#msg58438, I got larger rims with a more open character with my PJ clones when I used a hydration above 60%. With all of the oil that I believe PJs uses in its doughs, I tend to think that they are using a hydration below 60% since the higher hydrations would speed up the fermentation process and also result in greater extensibility when opening up the dough balls.

I might add that the PJ pizzas I have bought did not have large bubbles or voids.

Peter
« Last Edit: August 02, 2010, 09:57:29 AM by Pete-zza »