Author Topic: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents  (Read 35199 times)

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Offline husker3in4

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Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
« Reply #25 on: October 31, 2006, 02:21:28 AM »
Well I generally make 12" pizzas. I thought I read here somewhere that a 16" recipe will make 2 12" skins. Is that correct?  I am working on getting a KA mixer, but that probably wont happen for awhile. Maybe around christmas, maybe not! I pretty much use my trusty hard plastic spoon to do the mixing, and my hands to do the kneading. I have some King Arthur bread flour, Dakota Mills High Protien flour, some Fleishman's Instant Yeast (1lb freeze dried package, white with blue writing on it) and a kitchen thermometer to temp the water. I also have a stone, screen and pan. After trying all 3, I kinda like the screen or stone best. Hope that gives you an idea of what Im working with :)

Ive come to the conclusion I want to make a clone of Papa John's regular hand tossed style pizza. Once I get as close as possible to that, I will move on from there.  Any recipe suggestion is appreciated :)


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
« Reply #26 on: October 31, 2006, 09:59:09 AM »
husker3in4,

You are well equipped to make a Randy American style or a thin version of it as described in this thread. I have not yet tried using bread flour in that style but Randy did post a bread flour version of his recipe at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1698.msg15290.html#msg15290 (Reply 19). I also have not used hand kneading with Randy’s recipe but my recollection is that others on the forum have done so. I see no reason why you can’t either.

A good way to learn about pizza making is to try different versions of a recipe. For example, I first started with Randy’s basic recipe and gradually modified it to make thinner versions. Along the way, I experimented with reducing the quantities of several of the ingredients to see whether doing so would still produce a decent product (it did). If you like a Papa John’s style, I understand that Randy’s original recipe comes quite close. If you prefer a thinner style—an almost NY style--then a thin version works very well.

As far as the dough preparation is concerned, I don’t think it really matters which flour you use or which version of Randy's recipe you use. Depending on the flour you decide to use you may have to adjust the amount of water (hydration), and you may have to tweak the flour and water to get the desired finished dough condition, but the basic processing steps should be pretty much the same. If you decide to use high-gluten flour, it will be harder to hand knead such a dough, but if you introduce one or more rest periods during the mixing/kneading process, you should be able to manage it.

In your case, I would recommend that you make enough dough for a 16” pizza which, as you correctly noted, translates into enough dough for two, roughly 12” pizzas. There are several possible ways to use hand kneading with the different versions of Randy’s recipe, but I think I would use the following one.

I would start by dispersing the yeast (IDY) in with the flour. Then put the water and salt into a bowl and stir for about 30 seconds or so to fully dissolve the salt. Next, add the honey and sugar to the water/salt mixture in the bowl. To help dissolve the honey and sugar in the water, you can warm up a small amount of the formula water and mix the honey and sugar into it before adding it to your bowl with the rest of the water (which can be at room temperature or even cool). Next, gradually add the flour/yeast mixture to the bowl, about a tablespoon or two at a time, and mix in after each addition with a large sturdy mixing spoon. This is to better hydrate the flour without developing its gluten. Continue to do this until about 2/3 of the flour/yeast mixture has been added to the bowl. Then let the mixture rest for about 5-10 minutes. This rest period will be especially useful if you decide to use high-gluten flour, which yields a more extensive and elastic gluten network, and will allow the dough to soften and become more manageable. It should also help produce a more open and airy crumb in the finished crust, which appears to be a feature you like.

At the end of the rest period, I would add the oil. Normally, I add the oil at the very end before the final knead so that it doesn’t impede the hydration of the flour, but since you will be hand kneading I would add it to the dough mixture while it is still wet and easy to incorporate (as another option, you can even add the salt at this time rather than at the beginning). Once the oil has been incorporated, remove the dough from the bowl and put it onto a work surface. Mix/knead in the remaining flour/yeast mixture a little at a time. If the dough is too wet to handle and overly sticks to your fingers, you can use a bench knife to manipulate the dough by turning the dough as you gradually add more flour (I usually sprinkle the flour onto the dough). There is a natural tendency to want to add more flour, so you should resist doing so since this can lead to a dough that is too stiff.

Continue to add the flour a bit at a time and knead the dough until it become smooth with few surface irregularities. Ideally, it should be on the tacky side. If the dough is too hard to knead, as can happen with a high-gluten flour, let it rest for about 5 minutes, and resume kneading. Since you will be using volume measurements, it may be necessary to add more or less flour and/or water to get the desired finished dough condition. If such modifications are necessary, do so a teaspoon or so at a time. It is hard to say how long you should knead the dough, but you don’t want to overdo it. It is better to slightly underknead it than overknead it.

At this point, the dough can be shaped into a ball or disk shape, lightly oiled, and placed into a suitable container and then into the refrigerator. You should follow the remaining steps as outlined in the particular dough recipe you decide to use. One of the nice things about Randy’s American style dough is that it can be baked entirely on a pizza screen, using a short oven preheat (about 10-15 minutes). Every pizza I have made following Randy’s recipe and my variations of it have turned out very well. I hope you experience the same results.

Good luck.

Peter
« Last Edit: July 23, 2012, 07:57:28 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline husker3in4

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Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
« Reply #27 on: October 31, 2006, 08:34:57 PM »
Thanks peter, I think I can follow that pretty well. One question, I have been using ziploc bags for the dough when I put it in the fridge. After a few hours the bag is full of air, is that normal or desireable? Also, what type of container is that in your pics and where would I get it?

Offline chiguy

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Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
« Reply #28 on: October 31, 2006, 09:10:44 PM »
Well I generally make 12" pizzas. I thought I read here somewhere that a 16" recipe will make 2 12" skins. Is that correct?

Close but not quite. The surface area of a 16in pizza is 200.96in. and the surface area of a 12in is 113.04in. So two 12in pizzas would be 226.08, a slight difference but noticeable.
                                                                                                      Chiguy
 
 

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
« Reply #29 on: October 31, 2006, 09:24:01 PM »
husker3in4,

Zip-type storage bags are good because they are lightweight with low mass so the dough cools down fairly quickly when the bags go into the refrigerator. They also take up little space in the refrigerator and are transparent so you can observe the dough quite nicely. The negative of such bags is that it can sometimes be difficult to remove the doughs from the bags without mangling them when you are ready to use them. I like the metal cans (with lids) because metal cools down quickly in the refrigerator. The one shown in the photo is simply an empty nut container. I have others that contained cookies and cakes. You can buy metal dough retarding and proofing pans (with lids) like some pizza operators use for around $10 each, plus shipping, at many online restaurant supply companies.  In my case, I have accumulated so many empty food cans like the one in the photo that I have no need to buy the commercial ones.

What you observed with the storage bags you have been using is normal and, to the best of my knowledge, not harmful in any way.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
« Reply #30 on: October 31, 2006, 09:37:07 PM »
Close but not quite. The surface area of a 16in pizza is 200.96in. and the surface area of a 12in is 113.04in. So two 12in pizzas would be 226.08, a slight difference but noticeable.

chiguy,

What you say is correct. Of course, the easy solution would be to use a somewhat larger thickness factor for the 16" formulation and stretch the dough out a little bit further for the 12" sizes. However, with so many 16" dough formulations out there, it is simpler just to use the 2-for-1 rule of thumb even if it isn't exact.

Peter

Offline husker3in4

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Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
« Reply #31 on: October 31, 2006, 11:53:09 PM »
Do you put a lid on your container Pete? Like an airtight lid? or just a lid to cover but air can force its way out? Also, what type of metal is better than another? aluminum better than steel? Im sure I can find some empty cans, just want to know what to look for.

Offline chiguy

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Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
« Reply #32 on: November 01, 2006, 12:11:55 AM »
 peter & husker3n4,
 I noticed after reading you are not using a mixer and probably not a scale for that matter.
 So a real acurate measument of dough weights and thickness factors will not apply at this time for you.        Chiguy
                                                                                       
 

Offline husker3in4

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Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
« Reply #33 on: November 01, 2006, 01:09:29 AM »
You'd be correct chiguy. No scale, no mixer. Just my trusty measuring cups and my elbow grease.


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
« Reply #34 on: November 01, 2006, 08:43:45 AM »
Do you put a lid on your container Pete? Like an airtight lid? or just a lid to cover but air can force its way out? Also, what type of metal is better than another? aluminum better than steel? Im sure I can find some empty cans, just want to know what to look for.

husker3in4,

I'm not sure what my containers are made of, and I am not a metals expert, but I would think that aluminum would be a good choice, much like these pizza proofing/retarding pans: http://www.foodservicedirect.com/index.cfm/S/311/N/1647/Dough_Retarding_And_Proofing_Pans.htm. I have both tight and loose fitting lids for my pans. Since most of my doughs are low-yeast, low-temperature doughs, I rarely have a lid pop off. I believe the commercial proofing/retarding pans have loose fitting lids. The pans are usually stackable so that only a lid is needed for the pan on top, as shown in the photo at the link referenced above. A loose fitting lid might be best for the Randy American style dough because it is much higher in yeast (and dough temperature) than my usual doughs.

I wouldn't be overly concerned about what type of container you use. You can even use an empty bread bag to hold your dough ball. You just twist the end of the bread bag with the dough in it and tuck it under. The bread bag is actually better in some respects than a Zip-type storage bag because it is easier to remove the dough from the bread bag without mishaping it.

Peter

« Last Edit: November 01, 2006, 08:46:47 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline husker3in4

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Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
« Reply #35 on: November 01, 2006, 09:17:56 PM »
Thanks for the info pete, and the link, very good link! Once I can get to the store on friday and get some honey, I will be giving that recipe a shot.  Seems like my biggest problem so far on the 10 or 12 pizzas Ive made with 3 diff recipes is the crust on the outside of the pizza (the poofy part around the edge) is too crispy on the outside. I want it to be soft and chewy on the outside, like papa johns and some other local pizza places. I have cooked on the bottom rack and the middle rack, same result.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
« Reply #36 on: November 01, 2006, 09:30:31 PM »
husker3in4,

Let us know how the pizza turns out. We can always scale it back up to Randy's original thickness if it turns out to be too thin or too crispy at the rim.

Peter

Offline husker3in4

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Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
« Reply #37 on: November 02, 2006, 11:32:25 PM »
Peter, now that I look at your pics again, is that cornmeal you are using on the dough ball?

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
« Reply #38 on: November 03, 2006, 07:45:03 AM »
Peter, now that I look at your pics again, is that cornmeal you are using on the dough ball?

husker3in4,

It is a combination of flour, cornmeal and semolina. It is Randy's version of the Dustinator blend used by Papa John's when shaping the dough into skins. A bit of the blend is actually pressed into the dough to give it a marbling effect. If you don't have any semolina on hand, you should be able to get away with using just flour and cornmeal.

Peter

Offline husker3in4

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Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
« Reply #39 on: November 04, 2006, 12:24:03 AM »
Well Ive got flour and white cornmeal, is the white cornmeal the right kind for this?

And is it 50 - 50 on the mix?

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
« Reply #40 on: November 04, 2006, 07:06:33 AM »
Well Ive got flour and white cornmeal, is the white cornmeal the right kind for this?

And is it 50 - 50 on the mix?

husker3in4,

The white cornmeal should work (I've never tried it) but you should be able to find the yellow cornmeal at any supermarket. I just eyeball the mixture, but 50/50 should work.

Peter

Offline husker3in4

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Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
« Reply #41 on: November 18, 2006, 11:35:18 PM »
Hi peter, well the hand knead version of this recipe didnt work well. It seems that in almost all of my experiments with recipes here my dough turns out too dry. The only time I had success is with a version of your NY style (lehmann) and I later discovered it was because i was using 2 1/3 cups of flour instead of 2 1/2 cups of flour. When I tried with the full amount of flour = dry dough.

Anyway, I got my KA mixer in today and will try some of the recipes out.

I am going to post a question I have about my KA mixer in the equipment forum.


Offline husker3in4

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Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
« Reply #42 on: November 18, 2006, 11:44:24 PM »
Peter, I am going to try to make your 14" version of Randy's Original recipe. Using your measurements, I found the instructions a few replies down the page. I revised them so I could understand them and follow them better, but I want to make sure I didnt leave anything out or miss anything. Can you check them out and let me know if they are correct? Also, is the "lightly sealed container" a typo and supposed to mean TIGHTLY sealed container?

Mix flour sugar and salt in separate bowl. Put half the flour mixture and all the yeast into the mixer. Mix the honey and oil in the 120 degree water. Pour water mixture into mixer and mix (using dough hook, on stir setting) about 2 minutes. Stop mixer. Add the rest of the flour mixture and stir until the dough pulls from the sides of the bowl. Stop mixer for 5 minutes. After the 5 minutes, go to speed 2 for 8 minutes. On a lightly floured surface shape into a ball.  Place in the refrigerator in a lightly sealed container coated with olive oil overnight or up to three days.

Remove 3 hours before panning. Cook on screen @ 500 degrees on lowest rack of oven for about 8 minutes.


Mix flour sugar and salt. Put yeast and half the flour mixture in the mixer. Mix the honey and oil into the very warm water. Pour mixture into bowl and place mixer using dough hook on stir for about 2 minutes. Stop mixer. Add the rest of the flour, then set mixer to stir until the dough pulls from the sides of the bowl then stop mixer for 5 minutes. After the 5 minutes, go to speed 2 for 12 minutes. On a lightly floured surface shape into a ball.  Place in the refrigerator in a lightly sealed container coated with olive oil overnight or up to three days.

Remove 3  hours before panning
Remove from the fridge and flatten then fold, then shape into a ball using wet hands.

When I followed Randy's instructions, I used a shorter knead time because of the smaller amount of dough I was making. Also, I didn't flatten and fold the dough after it came out of the refrigerator. I just flattened the dough, covered it loosely with a piece of plastic wrap, and let it set at room temperature for about 2 hours or so. I worked the dough into a skin in a mixture of flour, cornmeal and semolina, as Randy has recommended elsewhere to create a marbling kind of effect.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
« Reply #43 on: November 19, 2006, 09:20:12 AM »
husker3in4,

The instructions you quoted in your last reply, including using a "lightly" sealed container, were from Randy's description of his recipe. I don't recall offhand how Randy actually covered his container, e.g., with a sheet of plastic wrap, a damp towel, etc. My recollection is that I used an empty metal cookie tin with a cover.

The instructions you posted, including my modifications, look correct.

Peter

Offline pierce652

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Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
« Reply #44 on: January 07, 2007, 08:41:25 PM »
I tried this dough recipe, actually Peter's version in reply #8 and it is definately a keeper.  This is my kinda crust.  Soft yet chewy with a hint of sweetness and a nice outer crunch.  The recipe is easy enough to make with minimal mixing time.  I let it sit in the fridge for 24 hours and the ball more than doubled in size.  When I began working it into a skin I thought I would have trouble with tearing however it streched perfectly.  However, in my opinion this makes more than a 16 inch pie, it could almost make two 12's when streched thin enough.  But Im definately not complaining.  Im keeping this as my go to crust.  I know its really good when my wife actually thinks its great and says its better than any pizza joint crust.  Thanks for all the work Peter.  Now I got my crust and also my sauce, from another post of yours. 

Now all I have to do is find a decent cheese.  The last two cheeses Ive used had a wierd consistancy to them. 
BBQ, Pizza, Flyfishing

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
« Reply #45 on: January 07, 2007, 10:04:15 PM »
pierce652,

If you like thin crusted pizzas you might also want to try out some of the other "thin" versions of Randy's American style pizzas. I thought they were all good.

You might also want to consider making November's pizza sauce as detailed at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3735.msg32136.html#msg32136 (Reply 2) and other related posts in the same thread. I think it is an excellent sauce and have been using it for my thin NY style pizzas. I made it with 6-in-1 tomatoes and the only deviation I made from the recipe was to reduce the amount of sugar, principally because the 6-in-1s are already quite sweet to begin with. I think the sauce will go well with Randy's American style pizzas, thin or otherwise.

Peter

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Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
« Reply #46 on: January 07, 2007, 11:56:42 PM »
Thanks, Peter.  I couldn't find the nutrition facts for 6 IN 1 Ground Tomatoes on Escalon's website.  What does the nutrition facts label say for sugars, fiber, and total carbohydrates?

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
« Reply #47 on: January 08, 2007, 09:03:08 AM »
November,

For the 6-in-1 all-purpose ground tomatoes (vine-ripened fresh unpeeled ground tomatoes, extra heavy tomato puree, and salt), the total carbs are 8 g., sugars are 4 g., and protein is 2 g.

Peter


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Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
« Reply #48 on: July 29, 2010, 04:27:28 PM »
Sorry for bringing up such an old thread but I am planning on making the dough today as described in reply #8. I have a few quick questions.

I was planning this to be used tomorrow night. Should I increase the yeast at all for a 24 hour rise?

Also, I have no KASL, but I do have KABF and Bobs Red Mill VWG. According to the mixed mass calculator (awesome by the way), I will use 11.45 oz KABF and .28 oz VWG. Do you think I will need to change the hydration any.

I have had a number of so so results (mostly ripping while stretching and sticking to the peel) using different recipes, usually between 63% and 70% hydration. I am looking for a good thin pie so I wanted to try this one. I did try a recipe once that had 58% hydration but had trouble mixing it so I added some water and probably ended up in the mid sixtys for hydration.

I recently had delivered for a shop in NJ and he had the perfect crust that I would order thin and crispy when I was working. I asked him what his dough formula was and he said:

50lb all trump
8 oz salt
8 oz sugar
Qt of veg oil
3 gal water

I am not sure how accurate this could be since this would be a very low hydration that I don't think I could mix at home, even with my KA Pro 600 mixer.

Sorry for mixing topics that probably belong in different areas of the forum.

Thanks for any help

Tony

edit: just after posting I called the guy I mentioned and he said I could take some all trumps any time I needed it. I will probably take him up on this but I would still like to proceed with the KABF and VWG so I don't have to rely on borrowing. Thanks


« Last Edit: July 29, 2010, 04:38:29 PM by trenz »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
« Reply #49 on: July 29, 2010, 04:49:19 PM »
Tony,

You should be fine substituting KABF for KASL in the recipe given at Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1707.msg15953.html#msg15953. With honey and oil in the recipe and a hydration of 61.5%, I don't see a need for increasing the hydration, even if you supplement the KABF with vital wheat gluten. BTW, you correctly calculated the amount of vital wheat gluten to use to get the same protein content as the KASL. Congratulations.

FYI, the 0.28 ounces of Bob's Red Mill vital wheat gluten translates to a bit less than 3 1/4 level teaspoons.

If you'd like, you can post the NJ dough recipe in a new thread. What is the name of the pizzeria?

Peter