"Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents

[Pete-zza]

Well Ive got flour and white cornmeal, is the white cornmeal the right kind for this?

And is it 50 - 50 on the mix?

husker3in4,

The white cornmeal should work (I've never tried it) but you should be able to find the yellow cornmeal at any supermarket. I just eyeball the mixture, but 50/50 should work.

Peter

[husker3in4]

Hi peter, well the hand knead version of this recipe didnt work well. It seems that in almost all of my experiments with recipes here my dough turns out too dry. The only time I had success is with a version of your NY style (lehmann) and I later discovered it was because i was using 2 1/3 cups of flour instead of 2 1/2 cups of flour. When I tried with the full amount of flour = dry dough.

Anyway, I got my KA mixer in today and will try some of the recipes out.

I am going to post a question I have about my KA mixer in the equipment forum.

[husker3in4]

Peter, I am going to try to make your 14" version of Randy's Original recipe. Using your measurements, I found the instructions a few replies down the page. I revised them so I could understand them and follow them better, but I want to make sure I didnt leave anything out or miss anything. Can you check them out and let me know if they are correct? Also, is the "lightly sealed container" a typo and supposed to mean TIGHTLY sealed container?

Mix flour sugar and salt in separate bowl. Put half the flour mixture and all the yeast into the mixer. Mix the honey and oil in the 120 degree water. Pour water mixture into mixer and mix (using dough hook, on stir setting) about 2 minutes. Stop mixer. Add the rest of the flour mixture and stir until the dough pulls from the sides of the bowl. Stop mixer for 5 minutes. After the 5 minutes, go to speed 2 for 8 minutes. On a lightly floured surface shape into a ball.  Place in the refrigerator in a lightly sealed container coated with olive oil overnight or up to three days.

Remove 3 hours before panning. Cook on screen @ 500 degrees on lowest rack of oven for about 8 minutes.

Mix flour sugar and salt. Put yeast and half the flour mixture in the mixer. Mix the honey and oil into the very warm water. Pour mixture into bowl and place mixer using dough hook on stir for about 2 minutes. Stop mixer. Add the rest of the flour, then set mixer to stir until the dough pulls from the sides of the bowl then stop mixer for 5 minutes. After the 5 minutes, go to speed 2 for 12 minutes. On a lightly floured surface shape into a ball.  Place in the refrigerator in a lightly sealed container coated with olive oil overnight or up to three days.

Remove 3  hours before panning
Remove from the fridge and flatten then fold, then shape into a ball using wet hands.

When I followed Randy's instructions, I used a shorter knead time because of the smaller amount of dough I was making. Also, I didn't flatten and fold the dough after it came out of the refrigerator. I just flattened the dough, covered it loosely with a piece of plastic wrap, and let it set at room temperature for about 2 hours or so. I worked the dough into a skin in a mixture of flour, cornmeal and semolina, as Randy has recommended elsewhere to create a marbling kind of effect.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

husker3in4,

The instructions you quoted in your last reply, including using a "lightly" sealed container, were from Randy's description of his recipe. I don't recall offhand how Randy actually covered his container, e.g., with a sheet of plastic wrap, a damp towel, etc. My recollection is that I used an empty metal cookie tin with a cover.

The instructions you posted, including my modifications, look correct.

Peter

[pierce652]

I tried this dough recipe, actually Peter's version in reply #8 and it is definately a keeper.  This is my kinda crust.  Soft yet chewy with a hint of sweetness and a nice outer crunch.  The recipe is easy enough to make with minimal mixing time.  I let it sit in the fridge for 24 hours and the ball more than doubled in size.  When I began working it into a skin I thought I would have trouble with tearing however it streched perfectly.  However, in my opinion this makes more than a 16 inch pie, it could almost make two 12's when streched thin enough.  But Im definately not complaining.  Im keeping this as my go to crust.  I know its really good when my wife actually thinks its great and says its better than any pizza joint crust.  Thanks for all the work Peter.  Now I got my crust and also my sauce, from another post of yours. 

Now all I have to do is find a decent cheese.  The last two cheeses Ive used had a wierd consistancy to them. 

[Pete-zza]

pierce652,

If you like thin crusted pizzas you might also want to try out some of the other "thin" versions of Randy's American style pizzas. I thought they were all good.

You might also want to consider making November's pizza sauce as detailed at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3735.msg32136.html#msg32136 (Reply 2) and other related posts in the same thread. I think it is an excellent sauce and have been using it for my thin NY style pizzas. I made it with 6-in-1 tomatoes and the only deviation I made from the recipe was to reduce the amount of sugar, principally because the 6-in-1s are already quite sweet to begin with. I think the sauce will go well with Randy's American style pizzas, thin or otherwise.

Peter

[November]

Thanks, Peter.  I couldn't find the nutrition facts for 6 IN 1 Ground Tomatoes on Escalon's website.  What does the nutrition facts label say for sugars, fiber, and total carbohydrates?

- red.november

[Pete-zza]

November,

For the 6-in-1 all-purpose ground tomatoes (vine-ripened fresh unpeeled ground tomatoes, extra heavy tomato puree, and salt), the total carbs are 8 g., sugars are 4 g., and protein is 2 g.

Peter

[trenz]

Sorry for bringing up such an old thread but I am planning on making the dough today as described in reply #8. I have a few quick questions.

I was planning this to be used tomorrow night. Should I increase the yeast at all for a 24 hour rise?

Also, I have no KASL, but I do have KABF and Bobs Red Mill VWG. According to the mixed mass calculator (awesome by the way), I will use 11.45 oz KABF and .28 oz VWG. Do you think I will need to change the hydration any.

I have had a number of so so results (mostly ripping while stretching and sticking to the peel) using different recipes, usually between 63% and 70% hydration. I am looking for a good thin pie so I wanted to try this one. I did try a recipe once that had 58% hydration but had trouble mixing it so I added some water and probably ended up in the mid sixtys for hydration.

I recently had delivered for a shop in NJ and he had the perfect crust that I would order thin and crispy when I was working. I asked him what his dough formula was and he said:

50lb all trump
8 oz salt
8 oz sugar
Qt of veg oil
3 gal water

I am not sure how accurate this could be since this would be a very low hydration that I don't think I could mix at home, even with my KA Pro 600 mixer.

Sorry for mixing topics that probably belong in different areas of the forum.

Thanks for any help

Tony

edit: just after posting I called the guy I mentioned and he said I could take some all trumps any time I needed it. I will probably take him up on this but I would still like to proceed with the KABF and VWG so I don't have to rely on borrowing. Thanks

[Pete-zza]

Tony,

You should be fine substituting KABF for KASL in the recipe given at Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1707.msg15953.html#msg15953. With honey and oil in the recipe and a hydration of 61.5%, I don't see a need for increasing the hydration, even if you supplement the KABF with vital wheat gluten. BTW, you correctly calculated the amount of vital wheat gluten to use to get the same protein content as the KASL. Congratulations.

FYI, the 0.28 ounces of Bob's Red Mill vital wheat gluten translates to a bit less than 3 1/4 level teaspoons.

If you'd like, you can post the NJ dough recipe in a new thread. What is the name of the pizzeria?

Peter

[trenz]

Thanks Pete

I would rather not mention the name of the place but if reposting this formula some where would be helpful you certainly can do so. Do those hydration levels look right? He can throw it in the air with low risk of tearing so I imagine it is very low hydration. I get 50% not counting the oil. If the recipe was downsized for home use how would you mix it.

Also, about the yeast in the formula you posted, should I raise it for a 24 hour fermentation since your amounts were for 48 hours. Also, how many days in the fridge do you think it would last because I will probably split it in two for two smaller pies.

Thanks
Tony

[scott123]

Re; All Trumps

http://www.shorerestaurantsupply.com/index.html

should carry it- if they don't, they should have something comparable (Kyrol, Bouncer, etc.)

[Pete-zza]

Tony,

I did read your earlier question but forgot to answer it. Sorry about that.

At 0.40% IDY, I think the dough should be usable after 24 hours instead of 48 hours. You might get another day out the dough but it will depend on keeping the dough on the cool side at all steps along the way. Usually when you want to extend the useful life of the dough, you decrease the amount of yeast, not increase it. If you lowered the yeast in this case, you might use 0.30% IDY. That should hold you for about three days. It also helps to use cool or cold water if you want to extend the useful life of the dough.

Since a gallon of water weighs 8.345 pounds, the hydration for the dough recipe you posted is about 50%, as you noted. However, oil can add to the rheology and viscosity of the dough. But, in this case, one quart of vegetable oil comes to about 1% of the weight of the formula flour. That will not increase the softness of the dough. In a home setting, the best machine to use in my experience for a dough with a hydration of 50% is a food processor. Of course, you would have to scale the recipe down to a small dough batch.

Peter

[Randy]

I have tried several versions using VWG and none to date benefited from the inclusion.  All, as i remember, had a negative effect on both flavor and texture.

Randy

[Pete-zza]

If one has access to high-protein flours/high-gluten flours, that is better than supplementing a weaker flour with VWG. And not everyone likes the taste profile of VWG. I personally don't mind the flavor impact of VWG and use it when I want to increase the protein content of a given flour. My advice for those who don't have access to high protein/high-gluten flours is to try out the VWG and see if it does the job.

Peter

[trenz]

I just finished putting together the dough a little while ago and I will see how it comes out tomorrow. I had to add a few drops of water but it came together nicely.

The all trumps that I can get free in small amounts is the bleached and bromated. I am not sure if this is considered the best, but I was reading a few threads here and it seems this is the only all trumps I am likely to find since it is so widely used. I did find out that a 50lb bag is only $15, so I think I will pick up a bag for myself.

scott123, you mentioned Shore Supply so you must have seen I am from Brick. I have been in there a number of times but I can't remember if I looked for flour. I know the supplier for the guy I know is Meat Depot (I think they use another name also) in the Lakewood Industrial Park but I will check Shore first

Thanks for the help guys
Tony

[scott123]

Tony, when it comes to choosing flour, what's 'best' is relative.  First of all, flour in the U.S. is a massive business.  There's a few huge players such as ConAgra, Cargill and General Mills, and smaller ones such as Bay State Milling.  Each company has their highest protein 14ish percent bleached bromated flour. Imo, these are all pretty comparable.  All Trumps (GM) seems to have the most brand recognition/market share when it comes to NY pizzerias, but I don't think AT is inherently better than it's other 14% bleached bromated (b/b) brethren such as Kyrol and Bouncer.

Once you start looking at 14% b/b as a class rather than a single product, 'best' then becomes a question of specific styles.  For a puffy high volume high heat high water NY style pizza, then, yes, 14% b/b is definitely both one of the more popular as well as, imo, better choices. When you walk into a restaurant supply store in the NY metro area, pretty much all the pizza flours are 14% b/b. Slightly lower protein b/b flour (12.6 and up) can make phenomenal NY pizza as well.

I'm no expert on American style, but the pizza in this thread seems to benefit from a denser breadier crumb.  When you're talking dense chewy crumbs, KA is king. I think if you really want to produce a dense crumb from AT, you could, but I think KA (BF or SL) seems to lend itself to this trait far more easier.  So, if you want to make this pizza, in this thread, then I'd stick to KA.  If you're striving for NY style, though, then 14% b/b is the way to go.

[Pete-zza]

My recollection is that Randy's recipe was intended to mimic a Papa John's style. Papa John's, like the other major national chains Pizza Hut, Domino's, and Little Caesars, does not use bromated flours (confirmed by PJ's itself and its ingredients list). I believe a good part of the reason is that, as national chains, they do business in California, which has strict cancer notice laws. It perhaps does not make good business sense to handle California differently than all of the other states.

My version of Randy's recipe produces what I have sometimes called a hybrid, or a cross between the American style and the NY style. I have never tried using a bromated flour to practice the recipe. However, I don't see any reason why it shouldn't work. But even if a nonbromated flour is used, such as the KASL or KABF, the crust won't be dense from the standpoint of being stiff or rigid. The large amounts of oil and sugar (including honey) will yield a soft and tender crumb because of the retention of significant amounts of moisture during baking. However, one is not likely to get a very large rim with large alveoles. The cellular structure will be fairly compact, even if soft and tender. At least that has been my experience with all of my Papa John's clones in my oven. I baked on screens at around 500 degrees F so that might also have restrained the oven spring.

Peter

[Randy]

... However, one is not likely to get a very large rim with large alveoles. The cellular structure will be fairly compact, even if soft and tender. At least that has been my experience with all of my Papa John's clones in my oven. I baked on screens at around 500 degrees F so that might also have restrained the oven spring.

Peter

I get some pretty good size ones Peter.

[Pete-zza]

Randy,

That looks really nice. Which recipe did you use and how did you bake the pizza (e.g., stone or screen) and at what oven rack position and temperature? Also, what hydration did you use? As I noted at Reply 11 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg58438.html#msg58438, I got larger rims with a more open character with my PJ clones when I used a hydration above 60%. With all of the oil that I believe PJs uses in its doughs, I tend to think that they are using a hydration below 60% since the higher hydrations would speed up the fermentation process and also result in greater extensibility when opening up the dough balls.

I might add that the PJ pizzas I have bought did not have large bubbles or voids.

Peter