Author Topic: Cold Rise Dough Method Question?  (Read 6624 times)

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Offline TomN

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Cold Rise Dough Method Question?
« on: January 06, 2012, 01:49:09 PM »
It was recommended to me, to try the "Cold Rise Method" for making Pizza dough. I tried some last night and will see how it turns out when I get home today from work. (I have it in the refrigerator, in a metal bowl, coverd with plastic wrap, used PF "POWER" flour and will be cooked in a pizza pan)  Do you let the dough come back to room temperature before working with it?


Does the recipe need adjusting for the cold rise? Do you add more yeast, less yeast? 

Also, and what is the advantage or the warm rising method? Sorry for so many questions!! Thanks for any reply!!!!

Tom


Offline dmcavanagh

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Re: Cold Rise Dough Method Question?
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2012, 02:58:36 PM »
TomN

Tom, one of the main reasons for doing cold rise is to give the dough time to develop more flavor. Overnight isn't really long enough to change the flavor of the dough all that much. I suggest being patient and giving it at least 2-3 days. When doing a cold rise you can generally use less yeast then you would for a same day dough. My standard recipe for 2 doughs involves 4 cups of flour and to this recipe I add a slight teaspoon of IDY, and I've had doughs go over a week and still had excellent results. You need to remove the dough from the fridge and give it time to warm before using. 2-3 hours are a ballpark figure, of course that depends on the temperature in your environment. In hot summer weather, an hour may be fine. In a chilly room in the winter, 3 hours may be needed. Relax, the great thing about this method is you can make dough at your leisure and use it at your leisure.

Offline dmcavanagh

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Offline TomN

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Re: Cold Rise Dough Method Question?
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2012, 03:52:29 AM »
I will give the cold rise method more time in the future. However, the dough turned out pretty good for only 24 hours. Thank you for all the help. Here are some photos. I might have to post them in additional posts, depending on the size limit here. THANK YOU for all the suggestions and helpful links.

PS
The Pizzaiolo Pizza Sauce bu Stanislaus Foods, RULES... It can be used right out of the can without adding anything to doctor up the sauce like others that I have tried.

Offline TomN

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Re: Cold Rise Dough Method Question?
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2012, 03:54:24 AM »
MORE PHOTOS

Offline TomN

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Re: Cold Rise Dough Method Question?
« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2012, 03:57:49 AM »
Last Few Pics

Offline TomN

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Re: Cold Rise Dough Method Question?
« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2012, 02:11:06 PM »
I forgot to add that the above pizzas were made using Pendleton "POWER" flour, which is designed to make a thick crust. Also, I par-bake the dough for five minutes in the pizza pan at 425, then add the sauce, cooked sweet onions, cooked sausage, cooked mushrooms, then Mozz cheese on top, with pepperoni, green and red peppers on top of the cheese. Bake for 15 mins, take out of the pan and onto the rack for 5 more minutes to brown the dough more. Take out of the oven and sprinkle with fresh parmesan cheese.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2012, 02:12:44 PM by TomN »

Offline dmcavanagh

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Re: Cold Rise Dough Method Question?
« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2012, 03:29:38 PM »
Could you explain what you mean by saying the flour is designed to make a thick crust. Why would the thickness or thinness of a crust depend on a particular flour? Any crust can be thick or thin, depending on how to work it.

Offline TomN

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Re: Cold Rise Dough Method Question?
« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2012, 04:08:11 PM »
There are many brands and kinds of Flour on the market. I use Pendleton Flour brand because I have access to it through Costco Business Center near my house. Unfortunately, I have to buy it in a 25 / 32/ or 50 pound bag. They also carry many sauces in a number 10 can, which is still more than I need at the moment, but I like that it saves me time trying to make the sauce myself.

The Pendleton "POWER" flour is design for a thicker "Chicago Style" deep dish pizza. (Perhaps the word Texture is a better way to say it) If you look closer at photo of my single piece of pizza, you can see that the dough is sort of flat and has no bubbled up spots. Some people do not like the dough this way. But i like that this dough can be cooked in a greased or oiled up Pizza Pan and then a little time on the oven rack.

The Pendleton MONDAKO flour (named because the wheat is from both Montana and South Dakota) is designed for a lighter crust. What I mean by that is: The pizza crust has that sort of bubbled up look and texture to it. However, you can not cook this kind of flour in a pizza pan. It has to be cooked in an actual pizza oven or pizza stone. (at least that has been my experience) But 60 percent or higher of the pizza shops that I visited, use MONDAKO flour because they like that lighter texture, and they have commercial pizza ovens, and are not making deep dish pizza.

I have seen photos on here of the lighter, bubbled up crust, but do not remember where? Perhaps someone who knows this website better than me, would be kind enough to post the link of those photos here. I also welcome, if anyone else can explain the flour issue. I am not sure that I give the best description or explanation about this. (THANK YOU IN ADVANCE)

Finally, I now have a pizza stone to try, so I can use all the MONDAKO flour that I bought. I will let you know how it goes.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2012, 04:18:56 PM by TomN »

Offline TomN

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Re: Cold Rise Dough Method Question?
« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2012, 04:18:05 PM »
Here is Pendleton Flour Mills website. Take a look at what they have to say about the different flours types.

http://www.pfmills.com/



Online Pete-zza

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Re: Cold Rise Dough Method Question?
« Reply #10 on: January 07, 2012, 05:29:58 PM »
The Pendleton "POWER" flour is design for a thicker "Chicago Style" deep dish pizza. (Perhaps the word Texture is a better way to say it) If you look closer at photo of my single piece of pizza, you can see that the dough is sort of flat and has no bubbled up spots. Some people do not like the dough this way. But i like that this dough can be cooked in a greased or oiled up Pizza Pan and then a little time on the oven rack.

The Pendleton MONDAKO flour (named because the wheat is from both Montana and South Dakota) is designed for a lighter crust. What I mean by that is: The pizza crust has that sort of bubbled up look and texture to it. However, you can not cook this kind of flour in a pizza pan. It has to be cooked in an actual pizza oven or pizza stone. (at least that has been my experience) But 60 percent or higher of the pizza shops that I visited, use MONDAKO flour because they like that lighter texture, and they have commercial pizza ovens, and are not making deep dish pizza.

I have seen photos on here of the lighter, bubbled up crust, but do not remember where? Perhaps someone who knows this website better than me, would be kind enough to post the link of those photos here. I also welcome, if anyone else can explain the flour issue. I am not sure that I give the best description or explanation about this. (THANK YOU IN ADVANCE)

Finally, I now have a pizza stone to try, so I can use all the MONDAKO flour that I bought. I will let you know how it goes.


Tom,

As you can see from Reply 142 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg151671/topicseen.html#msg151671, the Mondako flour is no longer made from flours specifically from Montana and the Dakotas but rather more generally from "Northern winter and spring wheat".

I'm not sure exactly which thread you have in mind but the Power flour was featured a lot in the Luigi's thread from which the above reference link was taken. Photos of the doughs and pizzas made using the Power flour are scattered throughout the Luigi's thread. Some examples can be seen at Reply 407 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg153434.html#msg153434, Reply 509 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg155289.html#msg155289 and Reply 596 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg159197.html#msg159197.

On the matter of correlations between flours and pizza types, I have never been able to figure them out or how the millers came up with the correlations. You will find similar disconnects at the General Mills professional flours website. I think that originally the flours were correlated with bread types and rather than starting from scratch with pizzas they just decided to do a mash-up between the two. I have decided to just ignore the correlations.

Peter

Offline TomN

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Re: Cold Rise Dough Method Question?
« Reply #11 on: January 07, 2012, 06:28:17 PM »
Thanks Peter,

I really appreciate your knowledgeable comments. I did talk with someone from Pendleton and they explained the two flours as PF POWER flour for thicker/heaver Chicago style crust and PF MONDAKO for the lighter/thin crust. I do notice that the POWER flour does not get bubbled up or make light style crust, and that it is easier to bake in a pizza pan. Finally, most of all the pizza shops that I visit use Pendelton or a blend specifically made by them by Pendelton, with each owners individual recipe. (Most use MONDAKO) Perhaps it is the Seattle area? Thanks again.

Tom
PS
Perhaps MONDAKO was originally made that was Montana / South or North Dakota. (Things can change or time)
« Last Edit: January 07, 2012, 06:32:58 PM by TomN »

Offline Essen1

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Re: Cold Rise Dough Method Question?
« Reply #12 on: January 07, 2012, 07:04:45 PM »
I do notice that the POWER flour does not get bubbled up or make light style crust, and that it is easier to bake in a pizza pan.

Tom,

I beg to differ.

The PPF is perfect for light, thin crusts and provides a nice chew. I can also tell you that some of the NY-style places here in S.F. use the PPF just for that application.
Mike

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Offline TomN

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Re: Cold Rise Dough Method Question?
« Reply #13 on: January 07, 2012, 07:55:59 PM »
Hi Mike,

Good to hear from you again. Maybe it is the way people out here make the dough, but this is what I am told by pizzeria owners and my personal experience, the Pendleton "POWER" flour does not give that lighter / bubbled up crust effect like the PF MONDAKO flour does. It can make a thin crust, but does have the bubble up , fluffy dough effect. (perhaps I am not using the right wording here, but that is what i was trying to say)

Who knows, maybe Peter is right about that flour is flour and it is what you do with it. Perhaps it is all about price to the pizza owners too. The MONDAKO is a little less than POWER. NOTE: the Costco website that I am posting is a delivered to your business door price, not the in store price.

Here is the PF Flour pricing:

http://www.costco.com/Common/Search.aspx?Browse=1&whse=BD_767&topnav=bdoff&search=pendleton&N=0&Ntt=pendleton&cm_re=1_en-_-Top_Left_Nav-_-Top_search&lang=en-US

Here is the pizza sauce:

http://www.costco.com/Common/Search.aspx?Browse=1&whse=BD_767&topnav=bdoff&search=pizza%20sauce&N=0&Ntt=pizza%20sauce&cm_re=1_en-_-Top_Left_Nav-_-Top_search&lang=en-US
« Last Edit: January 07, 2012, 07:59:11 PM by TomN »

Offline Essen1

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Re: Cold Rise Dough Method Question?
« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2012, 12:16:06 AM »
Quote
Maybe it is the way people out here make the dough, but this is what I am told by pizzeria owners and my personal experience, the Pendleton "POWER" flour does not give that lighter / bubbled up crust effect like the PF MONDAKO flour does.

Tom,

I still beg to differ.

But it seems you are convinced so it's up to you to prove us wrong.  ;)

I don't know what formula you've used in the past when trying to make a thin crust pizza with the PPF but since it has an absorption rate of 65% I'd go that high and give it a shot.

Keep in mind that the kneading time for HG flours is somewhat less than for regular flours or you'll end up with a gluten matrix that strong you wouldn't be able to shoot a tennis ball through.

Mike

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Offline dmcavanagh

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Re: Cold Rise Dough Method Question?
« Reply #15 on: January 08, 2012, 12:23:18 AM »
I'm with Essen1, different flours might have different properties, but to say that a particular flour is only for a thin or only for a thick crust just doesn't make any sense to me. I'd have to see the proof, and I've been making pizza for over 45 years and I haven't seen it yet.

Offline TomN

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Re: Cold Rise Dough Method Question?
« Reply #16 on: January 08, 2012, 02:34:21 AM »
Hello Essen1,  dmcavanagh, & Mike,

I just want to say that i am not out to prove anyone wrong and that I really appreciate your pizza making advice. I am just repeating what Pizza shop owners. pizza makers and even a Pendleton Rep has told me about PF products. Also, I do not mean to imply the word "ONLY", but for the small time pizza makers like me, their website, reps and other pizza makers give the impression that there is a difference in the two products. If anything, i sure am having fun making pizza and I am grateful and blessed to be able to learn from others on this pizza making forum.


Here is what their website says about POWER and MONDAKO as a complete mix recipe. NOTE: these are the ready mixes but they state there is a different end result.

POWER PIZZA MIX
Power Pizza Mix is specially formulated for thick-crust and deep-dish pizzas.

Our Power flour brand has come to represent one of the highest quality pizza flours available. Our complete Power Pizza Mix builds on that flour’s same heritage of quality and consistency.
Use our hassle free Power Pizza Mix and expect perfect thick-curst or deep-dish results…every time! Our specially formulated complete pizza dough mix provides the important economic benefit of “just-add-water” convenience. Our mix requires no additional ingredients to inventory or handle.  Power Pizza Mix is packaged to suit your operational needs.

MONDAKO PIZZA MIX
Mondako Pizza Mix is ideal for hand-tossed and machine-rolled pizza crusts, extra-thin cracker-type crusts, calzones and stuffed pies.

This complete pizza mix was inspired by our premier patent flour that has been the foundation for the pizza industry since the American pizza craze back in the ‘50s. Mondako Pizza Mix is an excellent choice for medium to thin crust productions. Eliminate scooping and guesswork, just-add-water to our complete pizza dough mix and you get perfect crust…every time! No additional ingredients are needed to inventory or handle—pizza dough mixes from PFM are packaged to suit your operational needs. Mondako Pizza Mix can add value to the menu of any restaurant or food service operation.

POWER
http://www.pfmills.com/power-pizza-mix-products-18.php

MONDAKO
http://www.pfmills.com/mondako-pizza-mix-products-19.php

ALL THE FLOURS
http://www.pfmills.com/premium-flours-pages-3.php
« Last Edit: January 08, 2012, 02:43:10 AM by TomN »

Offline Essen1

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Re: Cold Rise Dough Method Question?
« Reply #17 on: January 08, 2012, 04:17:41 PM »
Tom,

I didn't know you were talking about ready-mixes.

I have never used them so I cannot really comment on the characteristics of those flour mixes and the crusts they produce. Let us know, though, how they work out in case other members would like to try them.
Mike

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Offline TomN

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Re: Cold Rise Dough Method Question?
« Reply #18 on: January 08, 2012, 06:12:08 PM »
This applies to both the ready mixes and the other flours. (According to what i am told.) Wish I lived closer to you, we could experiment with pizza and some Washington State wine wine. LOL  Thanks for the the replies.

Tom
PS
the pizza on your profile pic looks awesome.

Offline TomN

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Re: Cold Rise Dough Method Question?
« Reply #19 on: January 08, 2012, 11:41:36 PM »
Hi Mike.

I had some cold rise dough left in the refrigerator, which gave it three days to do it's thing. I took your advice and tried the make THIN crust pizza with POWER flour. This was not a pre-mix power flour either. I rolled it out very thin and placed it right onto the oven rack without a pan at 475 degrees. Very light on the cheese this time too. It turned out pretty good. Take a look at the photo. (I cut the pizza in half before I thought about taking a picture) Thanks again for the advice and suggestions.

TOM

PS
My wife and kids liked it and that's all that really matters!  LOL
« Last Edit: January 08, 2012, 11:48:02 PM by TomN »


 

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