Author Topic: Artisan-inspired pizza  (Read 4853 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Essen1

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3393
  • Location: SF Bay Area
    • The Hobby Cook
Artisan-inspired pizza
« on: January 06, 2012, 10:46:13 PM »
Since there's no sub-forum for this particular kind of pizza I just post it here.

For the last couple of years, there is this new artisan pizza craze in California. With numerous openings here in SF and L.A. It is gaining momentum and more and more followers. I think it's fantastic that the West Coast is finally waking up and getting into making better-quality pies than what has been here before.

Anyway, I felt that I was a bit too much engaged in the NY-style project, trying to chase down the ultimate thin crust formula, that I have somewhat lost sight of some fundamentals and started to develop my own artisan crust. I love that type of pizza just as much as I like New York pizza, but it's different. And I like having different formulas for different crusts around. So my approach was a straight up one this time. No poolishes or starters or preferments.

I also changed baking hearths, going back to my kiln shelf instead of using the steel plate, which imho is great if one wants to re-create a NY-style pizza at home. But it doesn't provide the advantages a good-quality stone will give you for certain types of pizza. Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating against a steel plate but merely saying that steel is primarily perfect for one style of pizza, ...NY-style. At least in my opinion.

What steel won't allow you to do is bake at temps higher then 550 - 575F for 6-8 minutes. It'll turn your bottom crust into a black Frisbee. Try baking at 650 for 8 minutes for a thicker crust pie and you might as well go play fetch with your dog.

But if you're really into NY-style pizza, as I am, you want and need a steel plate! For an artisanal approach,... not so much.

Anyway, I was inspired by a few pics I saw online not too long ago and also got a request in from a family member for one of those pies. Puffy crust, light, airy but a tad chewy...that's what was requested.

I tossed around a couple of formulas and came up with this one:

Flour (100%):
Water (66%):
ADY (.3%):
Salt (2%):
Oil (1.75%):
Sugar (2%):
Total (172.05%):
Single Ball:
632.36 g  |  22.31 oz | 1.39 lbs
417.36 g  |  14.72 oz | 0.92 lbs
1.9 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.5 tsp | 0.17 tbsp
12.65 g | 0.45 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.27 tsp | 0.76 tbsp
11.07 g | 0.39 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.46 tsp | 0.82 tbsp
12.65 g | 0.45 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.17 tsp | 1.06 tbsp
1087.97 g | 38.38 oz | 2.4 lbs | TF = 0.084537
543.99 g | 19.19 oz | 1.2 lbs

2 minute initial mix, rest 30 mins, 7 minute knead, 15 minute on-counter rest, cold bulk ferment for 12 hrs then divide and ferment again for another 12 hrs.

The result is below. The feedback was excellent but I think it was a tiny bit too chewy so I might drop the kneading time down to 6 minutes and adjust the salt & oil amounts. I also used the ConAgra Harvest BF, not the PPF.

I can also imagine that if the TF is lowered it would be extremely close to a good NY-style crust. Just sayin'... :)

Some pics. First one is the 'inspiration' pic...

Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

http://thehobbycook.blogspot.com/


Offline TXCraig1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 12978
  • Location: Houston, TX
Re: Artisan-inspired pizza
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2012, 02:56:17 AM »
Those are some fine pies, Mike!

Craig
Pizza is not bread.

Offline Ev

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1816
  • Age: 58
  • Location: Lancaster Co. Pa.
Re: Artisan-inspired pizza
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2012, 08:00:13 AM »
New York, Shmoo York.  Absolutely gorgeous!

buceriasdon

  • Guest
Re: Artisan-inspired pizza
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2012, 08:02:53 AM »
Rats my post dissappeared. Mike, inspired looking pies. Could you elaborate on your bake time and temp? Thanks.
Don

parallei

  • Guest
Re: Artisan-inspired pizza
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2012, 09:56:47 AM »
Nice Mike. :chef:  I like the photo with your "Tartine Cooker" in the background.....

Offline Essen1

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3393
  • Location: SF Bay Area
    • The Hobby Cook
Re: Artisan-inspired pizza
« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2012, 12:39:07 PM »
Thanks, guys.

Yes, that's the Tartine cooker. Come to think of it, I think it's time for some bread again. Haven't made any in quite some time.


Rats my post dissappeared. Mike, inspired looking pies. Could you elaborate on your bake time and temp? Thanks.
Don

Don,

Bake time was around 8 minutes @ 615F stone temp.
Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

http://thehobbycook.blogspot.com/

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22455
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Artisan-inspired pizza
« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2012, 09:42:43 PM »
Mike,

Great looking artisan-inspired pizza!  :)

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline Tscarborough

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 3522
  • Location: Austin, TX
    • Pizza Anarchy
Re: Artisan-inspired pizza
« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2012, 10:14:07 PM »
Beautiful!

Offline Matthew

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 2234
Re: Artisan-inspired pizza
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2012, 05:23:12 AM »
Very nice Mike

Matt

scott123

  • Guest
Re: Artisan-inspired pizza
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2012, 05:49:00 AM »
Mike, you can play name games from now until the cows come home, but this is New York style.

NY style can range from 3 to 10 minute bakes.  My issue with longer bakes isn't authenticity, but quality. In most cases, longer bakes translate into less oven spring and lower quality crumbs. That's not the case here, though.

I also changed baking hearths, going back to my kiln shelf instead of using the steel plate, which imho is great if one wants to re-create a NY-style pizza at home. But it doesn't provide the advantages a good-quality stone will give you for certain types of pizza. Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating against a steel plate but merely saying that steel is primarily perfect for one style of pizza, ...NY-style. At least in my opinion.

What steel won't allow you to do is bake at temps higher then 550 - 575F for 6-8 minutes. It'll turn your bottom crust into a black Frisbee. Try baking at 650 for 8 minutes for a thicker crust pie and you might as well go play fetch with your dog.

Your implication that steel somehow can't bake this type of pizza completely misses the mark. It's not that complicated.  If you turn down the temp, this identical pizza can be made on steel in 8 minutes.  Steel, because of it's conductivity, transfers heat faster, so you have to work at lower temps to achieve the same results.  It takes a learning curve to establish those equivalent temps, and perhaps some broiling to match top heat to bottom, but it was a curve that I was pretty certain you were in the process of mastering.

If you want to use mullite, by all means use mullite. This is one of the best looking NY style pies this forum has seen in a while, but to imply that it can't be done with steel is, imo, unfair.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2012, 08:25:59 AM by scott123 »


Offline Essen1

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3393
  • Location: SF Bay Area
    • The Hobby Cook
Re: Artisan-inspired pizza
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2012, 04:14:59 PM »
Mike, you can play name games from now until the cows come home, but this is New York style.

NY style can range from 3 to 10 minute bakes.  My issue with longer bakes isn't authenticity, but quality. In most cases, longer bakes translate into less oven spring and lower quality crumbs. That's not the case here, though.

Your implication that steel somehow can't bake this type of pizza completely misses the mark. It's not that complicated.  If you turn down the temp, this identical pizza can be made on steel in 8 minutes.  Steel, because of it's conductivity, transfers heat faster, so you have to work at lower temps to achieve the same results.  It takes a learning curve to establish those equivalent temps, and perhaps some broiling to match top heat to bottom, but it was a curve that I was pretty certain you were in the process of mastering.

If you want to use mullite, by all means use mullite. This is one of the best looking NY style pies this forum has seen in a while, but to imply that it can't be done with steel is, imo, unfair.

Thanks everybody!


Scotty,

I wasn't trying to be unfair towards steel.  :)

But I also wouldn't necessarily categorize the pies you see above as NY-style. I have gotten the hang of baking with steel but for an artisanal crust I don't think it's a good match. However, I will definitely give it a shot. Same dough but baked on steel, with lower temps and then see what happens.

I'll report back on this.
Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

http://thehobbycook.blogspot.com/

scott123

  • Guest
Re: Artisan-inspired pizza
« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2012, 01:19:58 AM »
Mikey, you nailed it with the mullite.  By baking this on steel, you're only going to have less than stellar results until it's dialed in.  Why go through the trial and error when you've already got this with mullite?  I'm not asking you to use the steel plate, just to keep an open mind about what it can/can't do and not make any claims about what styles steel may or may not be suitable for.

Offline Essen1

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3393
  • Location: SF Bay Area
    • The Hobby Cook
Re: Artisan-inspired pizza
« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2012, 01:40:23 AM »
Mikey, you nailed it with the mullite.  By baking this on steel, you're only going to have less than stellar results until it's dialed in.  Why go through the trial and error when you've already got this with mullite?  I'm not asking you to use the steel plate, just to keep an open mind about what it can/can't do and not make any claims about what styles steel may or may not be suitable for.

Scott,

I'm always up for trials/experiments or projects that might improve the overall experience for a home pizza baker and to reach, or at the very least, get closer to his/her goal of making a great pizza at home. So if this crust can contribute in some way, whether steel or stone/kiln baked, I'm all for it.

But to answer your questions...

First of all, steel allows for a bigger pie. (18 inches compared to 17)

Second, it is an interesting undertaking with a potential outcome that might...might...change the way people bake their pizzas at home, assumed that steel will become as popular as pizza stones.

On the other hand, I can't see Soccer moms hauling steel plates around at Bed & Bath, trying to get to the check-out.  ;D

Third, it's energy-efficient. Much more so than stone since steel requires much less pre-heating than a stone or a kiln shelf.

Fourth, the learning curve. I believe that if one wants to be able to make good/great pizza at any given moment, time and hearth, he/she should be able to pull it off. In other words, learning to 'master' any hearth translates into great pizza anywhere, no matter what.

Fifth, it might make me a lot more proficient in steel baking.
Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

http://thehobbycook.blogspot.com/

Offline bakeshack

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 717
Re: Artisan-inspired pizza
« Reply #13 on: January 09, 2012, 03:17:14 AM »
Great looking pizzas!  I have also been impressed with your NY-style pies.  They are certainly some of the best here on this forum.

I am also from CA (SoCal) and I have also been seeing this "artisan" pizzas getting more and more popular these days.  However, I have always been wary of places marketing their pizza or bread as artisan because most of the time, they are owned and operated by people who do not get their hands dirty at all or they are owned, in disguise, by big corporations who just use the "artisan" term to their advantage (charge high prices) especially with people equating "artisan" as the new craze.  It makes me wonder about the true definition of artisan pizza.  How does a pizza become considered as artisan?  Is it the blistered, crispy, crunchy crust with fresh ingredients sourced locally cooked in a WFO or a very hot deck oven?  Or the crazy toppings which CA has become known for when it comes to pizza?  Are the NP and NY-style pies considered artisan as well?  Should pizzas be classified by the thickness of the crust and by bake times only?  I'm confused. ???

I still find it amusing (and funny and scary at the same time) when bakeries advertise their breads as artisan when their dough, ironically, is mixed, divided, and shaped by machines and people would go crazy about it.  It's commercial bread in disguise and people pay twice the amount. 

Marlon











Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22306
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Artisan-inspired pizza
« Reply #14 on: January 09, 2012, 09:49:33 AM »
Marlon,

Evelyne Slomon, the author of the pizza cookbook The Pizza Book, some time ago talked about "artisan" pizza. See, for example, Reply 606 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg41054/topicseen.html#msg41054, Reply 29 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3443.msg29429/topicseen.html#msg29429, and Reply 34 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3443.msg29468/topicseen.html#msg29468.

Peter

Offline Essen1

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3393
  • Location: SF Bay Area
    • The Hobby Cook
Re: Artisan-inspired pizza
« Reply #15 on: May 25, 2012, 12:27:59 AM »
As some of you may have noticed, I have been pretty absent from this board for quite some time.

Not because I don't want to contribute any longer, got bored or achieved what I wanted (far from that, actually) but because of some much needed time off from pizzas.

Since I joined PM.com in early 2008 and many pizza experiments later, I gained a few pounds which had to come off, and still have to. Back then I had a back injury which limited certain workouts/sports activities such as soccer, tennis, weight lifting, etc.

I started a new workout regimen in January 2012 and have lost a tad over 25 lbs so far with about 15 more to go. Don't get me wrong, I'm not blaming this forum for my weight increase but rather my own passion for pizza. I know some of you know that when you get caught up in one thing and the passion kicks in, there's no way of stopping. But I had to draw the line in January. It was time.

However, that didn't stop me from making an occasional pie, talk pizza with some of SF's pizza operators or trying to put crusts together that were based on a more healthy foundation. But we all know what that means...cheating the original out of its core fundamentals/values.

So after a few futile attempts of making a more diet-friendly & health-conscious pizza (low-fat cheese, less salt, less oil and other such trickery), I never found the satisfaction of the good pies of the past. In other words, I said F..' it and went back to the drawing board but made some changes:

1. Smaller sized pies (12 max)
2. Pizza only twice a month
3. More veggies as toppings rather than pepperoni, salami, sausage or cheese
4. A good tomato sauce made from high-quality San Marzanos without adding sugar or too much salt
5. Only pizzas on Sundays...basically the reward for great workouts during the week

With that said, I have made maybe 10 pies over the last couple months, but all of them came out great. The hiatus gave me time to think, time to rework my approach, time to focus on a crust that is actually achievable in a home setting and perhaps can work as a blueprint for a commercial crust.  And most importantly, it gave me time to actually want to make pizza again because I wanted to and not because of an experiment I had waiting in the wings.

I noticed that in the last few months I've been all over the map trying to clone/emulate certain crusts (Marcello's, Avellino, Ragazza, Delfina) that I lost sight of what I, the person Mike, actually is shooting for. I'm shooting for two things...

1. a great NY-style crust
2. a great artisan crust

But those things can't be achieved if one rotates/switches between an experiment here, an experiment there and everything in between. I feel that that is exactly what I've been doing. It was time to clear the head and look at things more focused.

I got some unexpected help from one of the pizza makers stated above when it comes to the NY-style crust but for obvious reasons I can't reveal the name nor the formula. The second one (artisan crust) is solely on myself and that's what I have been working on over the last three months, with great but not stellar results. So it's all still a work in progress. But I'd like to share some pics and a couple of formulas that got me very close to a good artisan crust.

The NY-style crust formula I received needs a bit more redefining and then it should be good to go. I will keep the board posted on it, if interest is there, albeit it not being the original, professional dough formula but an adopted one for a home oven.

With that all said, here are some examples of artisan crusts I've been working on lately. A word up front, though. The formulas use a combination of two flours, the Pendleton power flour and ConAgra's harvest flour.

Here's the first formula which got nice reviews from my guinea pigs but it was a bit off from what I was shooting for...

Total Formula:
Flour (100%):
Water (65%):
Salt (2%):
ADY (.3%):
Oil (1%):
Sugar (3%):
Total (171.3%):
Single Ball:

Preferment:
Flour:
Water:
Total:

Final Dough:
Flour:
Water:
Salt:
ADY:
Preferment:
Oil:
Sugar:
Total:

766.49 g  |  27.04 oz | 1.69 lbs
498.22 g  |  17.57 oz | 1.1 lbs
15.33 g | 0.54 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.75 tsp | 0.92 tbsp
2.3 g | 0.08 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.61 tsp | 0.2 tbsp
7.66 g | 0.27 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.7 tsp | 0.57 tbsp
22.99 g | 0.81 oz | 0.05 lbs | 5.77 tsp | 1.92 tbsp
1313 g | 46.31 oz | 2.89 lbs | TF = N/A
328.25 g | 11.58 oz | 0.72 lbs
 
 
164.13 g | 5.79 oz | 0.36 lbs
164.13 g | 5.79 oz | 0.36 lbs
328.25 g | 11.58 oz | 0.72 lbs

 
602.37 g | 21.25 oz | 1.33 lbs
334.09 g | 11.78 oz | 0.74 lbs
15.33 g | 0.54 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.75 tsp | 0.92 tbsp
2.3 g | 0.08 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.61 tsp | 0.2 tbsp
328.25 g | 11.58 oz | 0.72 lbs
7.66 g | 0.27 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.7 tsp | 0.57 tbsp
22.99 g | 0.81 oz | 0.05 lbs | 5.77 tsp | 1.92 tbsp
1313 g | 46.31 oz | 2.89 lbs  | TF = N/A

It was a bit too chewy, which I attribute to the Power flour and me perhaps over-mixing it. Others liked it.

The outcome below...

Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

http://thehobbycook.blogspot.com/

Offline Essen1

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3393
  • Location: SF Bay Area
    • The Hobby Cook
Re: Artisan-inspired pizza
« Reply #16 on: May 25, 2012, 12:33:03 AM »
The second attempts was a revised version of above's formula where I dropped the yeast amount and raised the oil amount a bit.

Total Formula:
Flour (100%):
Water (65%):
Salt (2%):
ADY (.25%):
Oil (1.75%):
Sugar (3%):
Total (172%):
Single Ball:

Preferment:
Flour:
Water:
Total:

Final Dough:
Flour:
Water:
Salt:
ADY:
Preferment:
Oil:
Sugar:
Total:

428.66 g  |  15.12 oz | 0.95 lbs
278.63 g  |  9.83 oz | 0.61 lbs
8.57 g | 0.3 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.54 tsp | 0.51 tbsp
1.07 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.28 tsp | 0.09 tbsp
7.5 g | 0.26 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.67 tsp | 0.56 tbsp
12.86 g | 0.45 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.23 tsp | 1.08 tbsp
737.3 g | 26.01 oz | 1.63 lbs | TF = N/A
368.65 g | 13 oz | 0.81 lbs
 
 
92.16 g | 3.25 oz | 0.2 lbs
92.16 g | 3.25 oz | 0.2 lbs
184.33 g | 6.5 oz | 0.41 lbs

 
336.5 g | 11.87 oz | 0.74 lbs
186.47 g | 6.58 oz | 0.41 lbs
8.57 g | 0.3 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.54 tsp | 0.51 tbsp
1.07 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.28 tsp | 0.09 tbsp
184.33 g | 6.5 oz | 0.41 lbs
7.5 g | 0.26 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.67 tsp | 0.56 tbsp
12.86 g | 0.45 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.23 tsp | 1.08 tbsp
737.3 g | 26.01 oz | 1.63 lbs  | TF = N/A

The outcome below...

Overall, they were both exceptionally crusts but there's still an area for improvement. I'll report back when I have more on this.



Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

http://thehobbycook.blogspot.com/

Offline TXCraig1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 12978
  • Location: Houston, TX
Re: Artisan-inspired pizza
« Reply #17 on: May 25, 2012, 09:47:00 AM »
Congratulations on the weight loss. Pies look very good as always. It's the same pies in both sets of pictures isn't it?
Pizza is not bread.

parallei

  • Guest
Re: Artisan-inspired pizza
« Reply #18 on: May 25, 2012, 11:00:51 AM »
Killer pies Mike!  I could stand to loose 5 to 10 lbs myself. >:D

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22455
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Artisan-inspired pizza
« Reply #19 on: May 25, 2012, 11:39:50 AM »
Mike,

Great looking pie and crumb!  :)

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!


 

pizzapan