Author Topic: Caputo based Pizza trying to be made in a deck oven  (Read 10011 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: Caputo based Pizza trying to be made in a deck oven
« Reply #20 on: January 11, 2012, 08:44:49 AM »
Norma
I think I would love to bite into that crust...bottom looks nice!  Middle looks soft...bet it was nice!!!

John
Hey Norma
I was wondering how many different ovens you've experimented with when using your various doughs...if you have experimented a bit, do you notice a difference in color in other ovens?
John

John,

Steve and I thought that the taste and texture of the crust was really different and good.  I think at some point in time Steve is also going to try the formulation in his home oven, or maybe in his WFO at a lower temperature.

I only have experimented with doughs in my home oven, (which only gets to a little over 500 degrees F) my deck oven at market (which I keep the same temperature, around 525 degrees F), and my BBQ grill set-up.  I have also have tried doughs in Steveís WFO. 

My home oven takes longer to bake pizzas than the deck oven.  Someday I have to fire-up my deck oven on a non market day and try some doughs at a higher temperature.  I never did those tests before, and donít even know how high my deck oven can go in temperature.  I would think, but donít know, that if my deck oven temperature was higher, that I would have gotten better top crust browning, but also might have burnt the bottom crust.  I really wouldnít know without doing the tests with the deck oven being at higher temperatures. 

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Caputo based Pizza trying to be made in a deck oven
« Reply #21 on: January 11, 2012, 08:50:23 AM »
NIce Norma! I remeber the conversation with Roberto. Vesta is using some 00 at 700 ish  now in his stefano  coming out nice!
john

John,

Thanks!  I wonder what formulation Vesta is using.  I also wonder if a deck oven at 700 degrees F would bake a decent pizza with only Caputo pizzeria flour.

Glad you also remembered the conversations with Roberto.  Roberto sure was a generous and gave a lot of information while we were at Keste.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Caputo based Pizza trying to be made in a deck oven
« Reply #22 on: January 11, 2012, 08:58:50 AM »
Nice work Norma.

Roberto's suggestion to increase thickness seems to have helped as the crumb does  not appear dried out although the crust is blondish while the cheese is starting to brown.
I did not change the thickness factor in my experiments.

How long was the bake?

Bob

Bob,

Thanks!  I thought Robertoís suggestion to increase the TF did help.  The crumb of the pizza made yesterday was moist, while the bottom crust browned okay.  I didnít time the bake time, but thought it was a little over 5 minutes.  I would have liked to get a little better rim browning. I donít know if I should change the amount of egg in the formulation, or change the oil to another kind of oil. I am not sure what to try next.

Maybe you might want to try a higher TF in your formulation for a deck oven and see what happens.

Norma
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Caputo based Pizza trying to be made in a deck oven
« Reply #23 on: January 11, 2012, 09:35:52 AM »
Thanks!  I thought Robertoís suggestion to increase the TF did help.  The crumb of the pizza made yesterday was moist, while the bottom crust browned okay.  I didnít time the bake time, but thought it was a little over 5 minutes.  I would have liked to get a little better rim browning. I donít know if I should change the amount of egg in the formulation, or change the oil to another kind of oil. I am not sure what to try next.

How much sugar did you end up adding to the dough? was there any sweetness? Malt powder?

CL
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Offline norma427

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Re: Caputo based Pizza trying to be made in a deck oven
« Reply #24 on: January 11, 2012, 10:09:17 AM »
How much sugar did you end up adding to the dough? was there any sweetness? Malt powder?

CL

Craig,

This is the formulation I used with Caputo Pizzeria flour, with fresh cake yeast, for a 14ď pizza.  I didnít use any malt powder in the formulation.  There was not any sweetness in the crust.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Caputo based Pizza trying to be made in a deck oven
« Reply #25 on: January 11, 2012, 12:52:43 PM »
Norma,

Were you able to detect the eggs in the finished pizza?

Peter

Offline thezaman

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Re: Caputo based Pizza trying to be made in a deck oven
« Reply #26 on: January 11, 2012, 01:17:22 PM »
 norma, i have only tried that dough one time. i remember it as a same day dough.maybe the longer fermentation used a lot of sugar that is normally  there for browning . you pizzas look tender on the interior.i did get good browning on the dough

Offline norma427

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Re: Caputo based Pizza trying to be made in a deck oven
« Reply #27 on: January 11, 2012, 03:35:18 PM »
Norma,

Were you able to detect the eggs in the finished pizza?

Peter


Peter,

No, I didnít think the eggs could be tasted in the crust or rim of the final pizza made with Caputo.  I thought the crust tasted something like, but not the same, as the Fairmont bagel pizza I made at Reply 57 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11832.msg118376.html#msg118376 but the Caputo pizza wasnít as good tasting, or as moist in the rim as the Montreal milk kefir Fairmont bagel pizza. 

What do you think I should add to the mix of Caputo flour in the deck oven to get better coloration, or do you think I should read the A16 thread?  I know you did discuss crust coloration at Reply 189  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12173.msg119874.html#msg119874 in my milk kefir thread.  I have different products at home I could add, even more eggs.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Caputo based Pizza trying to be made in a deck oven
« Reply #28 on: January 11, 2012, 03:44:14 PM »
norma, i have only tried that dough one time. i remember it as a same day dough.maybe the longer fermentation used a lot of sugar that is normally  there for browning . you pizzas look tender on the interior.i did get good browning on the dough


Larry,

I see you did get good browning on your rim.  Was your pizza tender in the rim?  Maybe from the longer fermentation it did use up the sugar that is normally there for browning, but I left the dough ball sit out at room temperature for longer because it didnít look like it had fermented enough.  You can see in the first  picture I posted at Reply 8 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17128.msg166976.html#msg166976 that the top of the dough ball didnít have any fermentation bubbles.  Only the bottom of the dough ball had fermentation bubbles. 

Thanks for finding your picture of your Caputo pizza made at lower oven tempertures.  :) What temperature did you used in your oven?

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Caputo based Pizza trying to be made in a deck oven
« Reply #29 on: January 11, 2012, 08:55:46 PM »
What do you think I should add to the mix of Caputo flour in the deck oven to get better coloration, or do you think I should read the A16 thread?  I know you did discuss crust coloration at Reply 189  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12173.msg119874.html#msg119874 in my milk kefir thread.  I have different products at home I could add, even more eggs.


Norma,

I do not think that I have much to offer in the way of advice on the above matter. I suspect that the recipe you used evolved because people asked for a recipe using Caputo flour that they could use with their standard, unmodified home ovens. I can see how and why that might happen after people have had a chance to eat a really good and authentic Neapolitan style pizza baked in the right kind of oven. I think the problem with such a recipe is that just about anything you do with a Caputo flour outside of the norm alters its features in negative ways that takes it out of the realm of a Neapolitan style pizza. Maybe that is why you posted your recent experiment in the General Pizza Making board rather than in the Neapolitan board.

When I was active in the A16 thread, there were a few of us who tried just about everything we could think of at the time to achieve decent crust color using Caputo flour in the context of our standard home ovens. We tried sugar, malts (diastatic and nondiastatic), pulverized Caputo flour (to increase starch damage for increased amylase performance), milk powder, dried dairy whey and oven within an oven configurations. All of the Caputo dough modifications worked to a certain extent but they altered the normal characteristics of a real Caputo crust to the point where the Caputo flour lost many of its unique and favored qualities, especially texture and, in some cases, color. We didn't try eggs but they would have a similar effect on a Caputo crust. Using a considerably larger thickness factor (larger than even the one you used in your most recent experiment), modest hydration levels, and small amounts of oil and sugar was the best we could do, even if that meant we had to sacrifice crust coloration. When I look at the recipe you used, I can see the same kinds of issues as we experienced. When I first looked at the recipe, and especially the large amounts of oil and sugar, I thought that the recipe looked more like an American style recipe--like something that Domino's might make if it were told that it had to use 00 flour and try to emulate the Neapolitan style with a thinner, smaller profile. There is nothing wrong with that but it bears no relationship to an authentic Neapolitan style pizza. I would rather tell people to use a combination of all-purpose flour and either cake flour or pastry flour and save themselves the expense of buying Caputo flour. Those blends were what many people used, and some pizza cookbook authors recommended, before Caputo flour became available at the retail level.

The above said, maybe there are a few things that you might try to get increased crust coloration. Using topical measures such as applying oil to the rim before baking or a mild sugar solution used in the same way might work. Since the Maillard reactions require an amino acid and a reducing sugar, the sugar in the mild sugar solution might be something like fructose, which is a simple sugar. It may also turn out that if you are able to get your deck oven to a much higher temperature you might get better crust coloration solely because of the much higher temperatures. That might allow you to move back more in the direction of a real Neapolitan style.

Peter


Offline norma427

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Re: Caputo based Pizza trying to be made in a deck oven
« Reply #30 on: January 11, 2012, 09:48:21 PM »
Norma,

I do not think that I have much to offer in the way of advice on the above matter. I suspect that the recipe you used evolved because people asked for a recipe using Caputo flour that they could use with their standard, unmodified home ovens. I can see how and why that might happen after people have had a chance to eat a really good and authentic Neapolitan style pizza baked in the right kind of oven. I think the problem with such a recipe is that just about anything you do with a Caputo flour outside of the norm alters its features in negative ways that takes it out of the realm of a Neapolitan style pizza. Maybe that is why you posted your recent experiment in the General Pizza Making board rather than in the Neapolitan board.

When I was active in the A16 thread, there were a few of us who tried just about everything we could think of at the time to achieve decent crust color using Caputo flour in the context of our standard home ovens. We tried sugar, malts (diastatic and nondiastatic), pulverized Caputo flour (to increase starch damage for increased amylase performance), milk powder, dried dairy whey and oven within an oven configurations. All of the Caputo dough modifications worked to a certain extent but they altered the normal characteristics of a real Caputo crust to the point where the Caputo flour lost many of its unique and favored qualities, especially texture and, in some cases, color. We didn't try eggs but they would have a similar effect on a Caputo crust. Using a considerably larger thickness factor (larger than even the one you used in your most recent experiment), modest hydration levels, and small amounts of oil and sugar was the best we could do, even if that meant we had to sacrifice crust coloration. When I look at the recipe you used, I can see the same kinds of issues as we experienced. When I first looked at the recipe, and especially the large amounts of oil and sugar, I thought that the recipe looked more like an American style recipe--like something that Domino's might make if it were told that it had to use 00 flour and try to emulate the Neapolitan style with a thinner, smaller profile. There is nothing wrong with that but it bears no relationship to an authentic Neapolitan style pizza. I would rather tell people to use a combination of all-purpose flour and either cake flour or pastry flour and save themselves the expense of buying Caputo flour. Those blends were what many people used, and some pizza cookbook authors recommended, before Caputo flour became available at the retail level.

The above said, maybe there are a few things that you might try to get increased crust coloration. Using topical measures such as applying oil to the rim before baking or a mild sugar solution used in the same way might work. Since the Maillard reactions require an amino acid and a reducing sugar, the sugar in the mild sugar solution might be something like fructose, which is a simple sugar. It may also turn out that if you are able to get your deck oven to a much higher temperature you might get better crust coloration solely because of the much higher temperatures. That might allow you to move back more in the direction of a real Neapolitan style.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks you for your thoughts and information.  I didnít post under the Neapolitan board, because I knew I couldnít obtain a real Neapolitan pizza in the lower temperatures I use in my deck oven.  I was just interested in trying since Roberto said Caputo flour can be used in a deck oven to make a decent pizza.

I didnít realize that the recipe I used was more like an American style, but can see that now since you pointed that out.

I will give this another try this coming week, with your recommendations of applying something to the rim before the pizza is baked.  Maybe your ideas will give better crust coloration.  I was satisfied with the taste, texture, and bottom browning of the pizza.

Norma 
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Offline DannyG

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Re: Caputo based Pizza trying to be made in a deck oven
« Reply #31 on: January 12, 2012, 10:03:54 AM »
There has been a great thread going in the Neapolitan Board and within it, Omid, the thread's originator, baked his Neapolitan recipe at two different temperatures. 949 and 598 degrees. While there are significant differences, the pie baked at the lower temperature still looks great and described as "tasty" but without the tenderness of the higher temperature. He didn't get the usual Neapolitan leoparding at the lower temp it still has nice color based on the photos (2a & 2b). His recipe has no additives such as oil, sugar, egg, etc.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg165692.html#msg165692


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Re: Caputo based Pizza trying to be made in a deck oven
« Reply #32 on: January 12, 2012, 01:51:02 PM »
There has been a great thread going in the Neapolitan Board and within it, Omid, the thread's originator, baked his Neapolitan recipe at two different temperatures. 949 and 598 degrees. While there are significant differences, the pie baked at the lower temperature still looks great and described as "tasty" but without the tenderness of the higher temperature. He didn't get the usual Neapolitan leoparding at the lower temp it still has nice color based on the photos (2a & 2b). His recipe has no additives such as oil, sugar, egg, etc.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg165692.html#msg165692




DannyG,

I have been following Omidís Neapolitan thread.  Omid is great at explaining what he does and all his pies look amazing.  :chef:  I saw he used no sugar, oil, egg, etc. at 598 degrees F. 

My market oven is kept at a lower temperature (around 525 degrees F), so I donít know if I could obtain the same results as Omid, without raising my oven temperature.  I could raise the oven temperature at market, but then my regular pizzas wouldnít bake right. 

Thanks for posting the link to Omidís bake at 598 degrees F.  :)

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Caputo based Pizza trying to be made in a deck oven
« Reply #33 on: January 14, 2012, 10:44:35 AM »
For my next attempt for a Caputo based pizza to be baked in the deck oven, I think I am going to use some of the dried whole egg product I have on hand in the mix, instead of whole fresh eggs.  I see at the self nutrition data that 1 oz. (28 g) of  whole dried eggs contains 0.9 grams of water http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/dairy-and-egg-products/121/2 and whole fresh eggs contain 213 grams of water for the same amount in grams.  Since I used 8.93 grams or 0.31 oz. of fresh whole eggs in my last attempt and that is about 1/3 of an oz., I will see if some molasses at 6.1 grams of water  http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/sweets/5573/2 will help cancel the drying effects of the dried whole egg and dry malt, that I plan on adding.  I will see how a dried egg product does or if it helps to brown the crust of a Caputo pie. I really donít think that small amount of dried egg will really make that much difference in what the hydration is. I think a little bit of Golden Barrel Supreme baking molasses added to mix might make the crust appear browner.  I would like the dough to at least room temperature ferment for one day.  If the dough seems to dry compared to last weeks attempt I will add more water.

Norma.
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Re: Caputo based Pizza trying to be made in a deck oven
« Reply #34 on: January 14, 2012, 06:40:49 PM »
Norma,
Awesome job as always! Love the look of that pie!
 8)

Btw,I use 2 % sugar at times and it helps browning a lot.If the recipe calls for at least 3/4 tbsp I just use 1tbsp.This is using HG flour though,with no oil.

I hope to try some caputo sometime and see if I can have any success with it.

:)





-Bill

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Re: Caputo based Pizza trying to be made in a deck oven
« Reply #35 on: January 14, 2012, 10:14:43 PM »
Norma,
Awesome job as always! Love the look of that pie!
 8)

Btw,I use 2 % sugar at times and it helps browning a lot.If the recipe calls for at least 3/4 tbsp I just use 1tbsp.This is using HG flour though,with no oil.

I hope to try some caputo sometime and see if I can have any success with it.

:)


Bill,

Thanks!  :)  As you know Caputo isnít meant to be used at lower oven temperatures.   Thanks for telling me how much sugar you added for increased crust browning.  

I really donít think I will get a really decent looking pie, but it is interesting to experiment.  If I could turn up my deck oven, I think I would get better results.

Norma
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Offline DannyG

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Re: Caputo based Pizza trying to be made in a deck oven
« Reply #36 on: January 15, 2012, 09:23:31 AM »
I did my first caputo in the home oven this weekend using Omids recipe, just flour, water, yeast (idy), salt. At best I was able to confirm everything that's been written about caputo and low temps in this forum - very light in color, more towards a cracker type texture, but great flavor. My GE electric has a top setting of 550 and my stone gets to 605 degrees. In my next attempt I will try adding a little oil and reduce the water percentage from 63% to 60%. I think it's just wishful thinking that I can getting a great caputo pizza out of my oven. Even Omid, who had fixed his oven to go over 800 degrees says his pies don't compare to the same dough cooked in a real WFO.

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Re: Caputo based Pizza trying to be made in a deck oven
« Reply #37 on: January 15, 2012, 11:49:13 AM »
I did my first caputo in the home oven this weekend using Omids recipe, just flour, water, yeast (idy), salt. At best I was able to confirm everything that's been written about caputo and low temps in this forum - very light in color, more towards a cracker type texture, but great flavor. My GE electric has a top setting of 550 and my stone gets to 605 degrees. In my next attempt I will try adding a little oil and reduce the water percentage from 63% to 60%. I think it's just wishful thinking that I can getting a great caputo pizza out of my oven. Even Omid, who had fixed his oven to go over 800 degrees says his pies don't compare to the same dough cooked in a real WFO.


Danny,

Thanks for telling me you did your first experiment over the weekend using Omidís recipe.  Different members have tried using Caputo in a home oven.  If you read what Peter posted at Reply 3 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17128.msg166777.html#msg166777 you can see how hard it is to try and accomplish a Caputo pie in a home oven.  You are at least lucky your oven can get to the temperatures it can.  My home oven can only get to a little over 500 degrees F.  I have done some bakes on my modified BBQ grill that can get hotter in temperature than my home oven at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11133.0.html  Some of those bakes were good, but nothing like a real WFO.  My friend Steve (Ev), does have a real WFO, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11155.0.html  and the pies that bake so fast in his WFO have a much different taste, even if they donít look like perfect Neapolitan pies.  It is just something about the fast bake in a WFO that make the pies different.

I really know I will never be able to obtain a real Neapolitan pie out of my deck oven, but am just trying to see if I can get a moist rim, good bottom crust color, good coloration on the rim, and a good taste in the crust.  I probably wonít succeed.

Best of luck with your next iteration.  :)

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Caputo based Pizza trying to be made in a deck oven
« Reply #38 on: January 16, 2012, 12:24:32 PM »
I mixed another all Caputo flour dough this morning to be tried in the deck oven tomorrow.  This time I added 9 grams of Golden Supreme Baking Molasses, 9 grams of DME Dry Malt, and 5 grams of whole dried eggs (instead of the whole fresh eggs I used before), in addition to all the same other ingredients I had used for my last attempt. The mixture didnĎt need any extra water added.  I am going to try and let the dough ball room temperature ferment until tomorrow.  At least the dough ball is a little darker in color this time, but I still donít know if what I did will give a better coloration to the crust, or even if the pizza will be okay.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Caputo based Pizza trying to be made in a deck oven
« Reply #39 on: January 17, 2012, 09:32:38 PM »
I never would have believed it until I did this experiment, but Caputo with other added ingredients can be baked at lower temperatures and can have a browner crust, great taste in the crust, a moist rim, oven spring, and good bottom browning.  >:D

This was one of the most different pies my taste testers and I have tried.  ;D I couldnít believe how moist the crumb was and the bottom crust stood out when it was held out.  We all really enjoyed the taste, texture and the different taste in this Caputo pizza. 

Randy got me to reheat a slice and it was even better after a reheat. 

Now I wonder how I can use a combination of cake flour and AP or another combination of flours that are cheaper than Caputo and achieve the same pizza.

Norma
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