Author Topic: Caputo based Pizza trying to be made in a deck oven  (Read 10384 times)

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Offline norma427

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Caputo based Pizza trying to be made in a deck oven
« on: January 09, 2012, 11:04:06 AM »


I asked and listened to Roberto at Keste about how to use Caputo in a lower temperature deck oven.  Roberto said since the higher heat of a WFO bakes Caputo differently you need to add sugar to the formulation and also use a higher TF for a pie to bake okay when using Caputo. Roberto said that the hotter oven drives out moisture in the dough faster, so that is why a higher TF is needed. 

I searched the forum yesterday about using Caputo in a lower temperature oven and found Larry’s thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10475.msg92602.html#msg92602 and found where Peter converted the formulation at Reply 10 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10475.msg92679.html#msg92679  I used less cake yeast in the formulation, because I wanted a two day fermented dough, and also changed the soybean oil to olive oil, but used the rest of the formulation, but for a 14” pizza using Caputo Pizzeria flour.  I also used a TF of 0.105 since Roberto said to use a higher TF.

I had wanted to do a room only temperature fermentation, but was afraid since some egg is used in the formulation, I was worried about how that would work, so I used a bulk ferment at room temperature for 5 hrs, then balled the dough. and now am cold fermenting until tomorrow.

I have no idea how this will work or bake in my oven tomorrow, but will post whether it works or not.

These are the pictures of after the dough was mixed, after it was balled yesterday, and how the dough ball looks now.  I oiled the plastic container and dough ball with Pam.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Caputo based Pizza trying to be made in a deck oven
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2012, 11:04:57 AM »
Norma
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Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Caputo based Pizza trying to be made in a deck oven
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2012, 12:16:47 PM »
Great project Norma! Diastatic malt powder might also be a good option for browning.

John

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Caputo based Pizza trying to be made in a deck oven
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2012, 02:01:08 PM »
Norma,

Several years ago, when I did the bulk of my experimentation using Caputo 00 flour in the context of an unmodified electric home oven, I came to pretty much the same conclusions as Roberto as to thickness factor but reached other conclusions as well that I thought were material and significant, as I tried to summarize in the next to the last paragraph at Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3673.msg30921.html#msg30921. One of the measures that I found worked well was the use of a mini-oven, which is described in one of the posts linked in Reply 3 referenced above and also in the following Reply 4 in respect of the Dom DeMarco clones I played around with. I mention the mini-oven because a mini-oven somewhat simulates the small head space that exists in most deck ovens. For naturally leavened doughs, you might take a look at Reply 7 in the same thread.

I do not recall specifically using sugar but I do recall using just about every method that we could come up with at the time to get more crust coloration in a standard unmodified home oven. Most of our work was done in the A16 thread but we tried diastatic malt (see, for example, Reply 205 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1298.msg14399/topicseen.html#msg14399), sweet dairy whey, increasing the degree of damaged starch (I ran the Caputo flour through my food processor), etc. Some of these measures worked to get increased crust coloration but they also had effects on crust texture that were different than one would have gotten using the Caputo flour in the context of a very high temperature oven. Remember, all of this was happening when there were only about 1400 members on the forum, where then like now, most of them were on the sidelines watching those of us who were on the playing field fumbling around because, other than Bill/SFNM, we knew very little about Neapolitan style doughs, and even less in the context of using a home oven for that style.

If I were to undertake a project to make a deck oven Caputo-based pizza, I would read the A16 thread and other threads and posts linked from there. It will be painful to go through the thread because of its length (19 pages) but, absent someone coming to the rescue and handing everything to you on a silver platter, I don't know of any other way to proceed. We now have quite a few members who know how best to use the Caputo flour so they might have some ideas for you.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Caputo based Pizza trying to be made in a deck oven
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2012, 05:36:52 PM »
Great project Norma! Diastatic malt powder might also be a good option for browning.

John

John,

If my experiment doesn't work tomorrow I can add some diastatic malt powder.  Thanks for the idea!  :)  Roberto only said to up the TF and add sugar, but I didn't think that would work well.  Maybe he might have been right though.  I guess I will have to wait and see what happens.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Caputo based Pizza trying to be made in a deck oven
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2012, 06:11:50 PM »
Norma,

Several years ago, when I did the bulk of my experimentation using Caputo 00 flour in the context of an unmodified electric home oven, I came to pretty much the same conclusions as Roberto as to thickness factor but reached other conclusions as well that I thought were material and significant, as I tried to summarize in the next to the last paragraph at Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3673.msg30921.html#msg30921. One of the measures that I found worked well was the use of a mini-oven, which is described in one of the posts linked in Reply 3 referenced above and also in the following Reply 4 in respect of the Dom DeMarco clones I played around with. I mention the mini-oven because a mini-oven somewhat simulates the small head space that exists in most deck ovens. For naturally leavened doughs, you might take a look at Reply 7 in the same thread.

I do not recall specifically using sugar but I do recall using just about every method that we could come up with at the time to get more crust coloration in a standard unmodified home oven. Most of our work was done in the A16 thread but we tried diastatic malt (see, for example, Reply 205 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1298.msg14399/topicseen.html#msg14399), sweet dairy whey, increasing the degree of damaged starch (I ran the Caputo flour through my food processor), etc. Some of these measures worked to get increased crust coloration but they also had effects on crust texture that were different than one would have gotten using the Caputo flour in the context of a very high temperature oven. Remember, all of this was happening when there were only about 1400 members on the forum, where then like now, most of them were on the sidelines watching those of us who were on the playing field fumbling around because, other than Bill/SFNM, we knew very little about Neapolitan style doughs, and even less in the context of using a home oven for that style.

If I were to undertake a project to make a deck oven Caputo-based pizza, I would read the A16 thread and other threads and posts linked from there. It will be painful to go through the thread because of its length (19 pages) but, absent someone coming to the rescue and handing everything to you on a silver platter, I don't know of any other way to proceed. We now have quite a few members who know how best to use the Caputo flour so they might have some ideas for you.

Peter


Peter,

Thanks for all the links and the links referenced therein.  I see you did come to pretty much the same conclusions as Roberto in the TF, but also see you reached other conclusions as well that were material and significant.  I see you and other members did go through many iterations to get the Caputo flour to make a good pizza.

It is interesting how many pains you and other members went though to try and use Caputo flour in an unmodified electric oven or other ways to try like the mini-oven. I know back then there were only a small number of members that actively participated on helping, except Bill who knew more about using Caputo flour. 

If my experiment doesn’t work tomorrow I will read though the 19 pages of the A16 thread and see if I can get any ideas from that thread, and also read over all the links you gave me in your last post.  Looks like I might be busy reading.  :-D

Norma
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Re: Caputo based Pizza trying to be made in a deck oven
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2012, 03:05:33 PM »

Hi Norma

I have experimented with OO flour in my deck oven baking at 525-550.  I started first using a "basic" neo formula.  Since I usually judge doneness by what the crust looks like, the bake seemed to take forever.  When the crust finally looked like it was done, the toppings were toast and the crust was hard as a rock.  I then decided to add sugar and try again.  This time I got some color to the crust but again it was baked too long so the crust was still too hard.  Next I tried some malt-no improvement.  Then I decided to mix OO with HG flour at varying percentages.  This resulted in a more tender crust; of course this gets away from your desire to use OO 100%.
During other experiments I did use OO 100% when I cranked the oven to the 800 range.  This resulted in a crust with expected characteristics of OO; bake time was under 2 minutes.
I concluded that with usual deck oven temps, OO isn't compatible with a light crumb and soft to slightly crispy crust as found in a neo pie.  If however you are a pyro at heart and have good insurance, you could modify your oven to get the high temp OO requires.
Good luck with your experiments.

Bob

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Re: Caputo based Pizza trying to be made in a deck oven
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2012, 09:06:11 PM »
Hi Norma

I have experimented with OO flour in my deck oven baking at 525-550.  I started first using a "basic" neo formula.  Since I usually judge doneness by what the crust looks like, the bake seemed to take forever.  When the crust finally looked like it was done, the toppings were toast and the crust was hard as a rock.  I then decided to add sugar and try again.  This time I got some color to the crust but again it was baked too long so the crust was still too hard.  Next I tried some malt-no improvement.  Then I decided to mix OO with HG flour at varying percentages.  This resulted in a more tender crust; of course this gets away from your desire to use OO 100%.
During other experiments I did use OO 100% when I cranked the oven to the 800 range.  This resulted in a crust with expected characteristics of OO; bake time was under 2 minutes.
I concluded that with usual deck oven temps, OO isn't compatible with a light crumb and soft to slightly crispy crust as found in a neo pie.  If however you are a pyro at heart and have good insurance, you could modify your oven to get the high temp OO requires.
Good luck with your experiments.

Bob

Bob,

Thanks for telling me about your experiences in using 00 flour in your deck oven at 525-550 degrees F. 

Great to hear during your other experiments when using 00 100% your could get a pizza with a good crust and  the color you wanted, if your oven was cranked-up enough.  800 degrees F for a deck oven is a high temperature!  :o

I don’t think I am up to trying any mods on my deck oven.  I need the oven at regular temperatures for my other pies.

Thanks for the good luck!

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Caputo based Pizza trying to be made in a deck oven
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2012, 09:12:07 PM »
Steve and I thought the first attempt at a Caputo pie made in the deck oven went well.  There could have been a little better browning of the rim, but there was oven spring, a nice texture, and good bottom crust browning. Even though Steve and I both could taste the salt in the crumb, the taste of the salt wasn’t too much.  The bottom crust was a little crispy.

The dough ball was left at room temperature today for 6 hrs. before making the Caputo pizza with fresh cake yeast. 

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Caputo based Pizza trying to be made in a deck oven
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2012, 09:13:11 PM »
Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Caputo based Pizza trying to be made in a deck oven
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2012, 09:14:20 PM »
Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Caputo based Pizza trying to be made in a deck oven
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2012, 09:15:29 PM »
Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Caputo based Pizza trying to be made in a deck oven
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2012, 09:16:40 PM »
Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Caputo based Pizza trying to be made in a deck oven
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2012, 09:18:03 PM »
Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Caputo based Pizza trying to be made in a deck oven
« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2012, 09:20:18 PM »
Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Caputo based Pizza trying to be made in a deck oven
« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2012, 09:22:22 PM »
Norma
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Offline fazzari

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Re: Caputo based Pizza trying to be made in a deck oven
« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2012, 10:24:26 PM »
Norma
I think I would love to bite into that crust...bottom looks nice!  Middle looks soft...bet it was nice!!!

John

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Re: Caputo based Pizza trying to be made in a deck oven
« Reply #17 on: January 10, 2012, 10:30:28 PM »
NIce Norma! I remeber the conversation with Roberto. Vesta is using some 00 at 700 ish  now in his stefano  coming out nice!
john
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Offline fazzari

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Re: Caputo based Pizza trying to be made in a deck oven
« Reply #18 on: January 10, 2012, 10:33:24 PM »
Hey Norma
I was wondering how many different ovens you've experimented with when using your various doughs...if you have experimented a bit, do you notice a difference in color in other ovens?
John

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Re: Caputo based Pizza trying to be made in a deck oven
« Reply #19 on: January 10, 2012, 11:44:53 PM »

Nice work Norma.

Roberto's suggestion to increase thickness seems to have helped as the crumb does  not appear dried out although the crust is blondish while the cheese is starting to brown.
I did not change the thickness factor in my experiments.

How long was the bake?

Bob


 

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