Author Topic: Wood Stone pizza ovens  (Read 26534 times)

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Offline Repguy

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Re: Wood Stone pizza ovens
« Reply #20 on: August 15, 2005, 11:42:15 AM »
Unfortunatly, it won't go cheap.  It is about a $27,000.00 piece new.  As an aside, it is the same model oven used by Tutta bella in seattle who makes neopolitan pie and is certified by VPN.  Oh, I forgot, these types of ovens can't reach a high enough temp to do neo pie. 

rep.


Offline Ronzo

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Re: Wood Stone pizza ovens
« Reply #21 on: August 15, 2005, 12:54:09 PM »
$27k?







 :'(







I think I'd rather build my own. I can do it a lot cheaper than $27k, and unless I owned a restaurant, I could never justify that cost.
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Offline Repguy

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Re: Wood Stone pizza ovens
« Reply #22 on: August 15, 2005, 03:54:35 PM »
They are a commercial oven.  Although they do build some residential models that are less money.

Offline Ronzo

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Re: Wood Stone pizza ovens
« Reply #23 on: August 15, 2005, 04:47:51 PM »
They are a commercial oven.  Although they do build some residential models that are less money.

*Whew!*

I was gonna say, daz a whole lotta money to make pizza at home! :D
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Offline PizzaBrewer

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Re: Wood Stone pizza ovens
« Reply #24 on: August 15, 2005, 07:04:11 PM »
Well the oven went at auction for $5000, but there will be a real difficulty and expense moving it.  Obviously the oven was placed first and then the kitchen built around it as there is NO WAY it will fit through the existing kitchen and doorway.   I wish the high bidder luck!

---Guy
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Offline Repguy

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Re: Wood Stone pizza ovens
« Reply #25 on: August 15, 2005, 08:15:04 PM »
They got quite the deal then.  Even if it cost 5k to move it, they got it for over half off.  Riggers can move anything.

Offline pizza truck

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Re: Wood Stone pizza ovens
« Reply #26 on: August 15, 2005, 10:14:25 PM »
I cook on a Mugnaini model 120 which weighs about 3000lbs. i agree with the previous poster about the oven being able to reach any heat - mine - a prefab one - runs all day at 800 degrees. The question on moving any of these for future buyers is how were they installed. many are sold as shells that are then built into the wall on the restaurant. You should be able to demolish the surrounding wall and remove the oven but it would be best donne by someone who knew what they were doing. In general these ovens aren't cheap - for a restaurant looking to make a lot of money on pizza there are cheaper ways to cook, but for a place that wants to make great pizza there is no better way than a good oven. For hosehold use there are smaller ones and smaller prices but keep in mind these are things that are not best fired up for one or two pies - they are designed to be run daily - they take hours to heat up and hours to cool down so if you frequently do pizza parties go for it but if you want something to cook something when you get home in a hurry for get about it.

Offline Repguy

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Re: Wood Stone pizza ovens
« Reply #27 on: August 16, 2005, 02:55:28 PM »
Pizza Truck,  Thank you for "Getting It" 

Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: Wood Stone pizza ovens
« Reply #28 on: August 30, 2005, 08:34:49 AM »
Pizza napoleatano,

Can't reach temp?  Ever been to Naples 45 in NYC?  about 700 degrees in 2 wood stone ovens.  Tutta Bella in Seattle, over 700 degrees in a Wood stone oven.  What temp are you looking for?  Do you personally know of any wood stone ovens that have not held up?  The very first oven they ever built is still cooking?  Sounds like you don't have all the facts. 

I have seen the pizza of Naples 45 and can see that they were not cooked properly due to the oven.

A prefabricated oven is something... a Hand built Neapolitan oven is something else. When talking about professional oven you need to consider not only a peak temperature, but a consistent temperature over  a 4-5 hours service.

I don't see the point of measuring a temperature in general, as it varies. What do you measure anyway? the hot air coming out of it ? the floor ? or the oven bricks? I have the facts that all three do vary...........

the floor should be at a temperature of around 800 f.

And by the way, the Wood Stone ovens at last year NYC pizza show (gas fired), have not held up.

I understand you work for them. On the other hand, I do not sell oven, and I am completely independent. I have more then once show what my knowledge is all about...

Ciao

Offline Repguy

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Re: Wood Stone pizza ovens
« Reply #29 on: August 30, 2005, 10:30:08 AM »
FIrst of all, I don't work for wood stone.   VPN seems to think that Naples 45 cooks them properly.  What asociation do you head?  Give me the details of the oven that was at the NYC pizza show last year and details of it not holding up because I happen to know where that oven is installed and enjoyed a very nice pizza from it last week.  So tell me where it went.  I challange you to talk to anyone who owns a wood stone oven and see if they have any recovery issues.  Then post names and comments instead of just saying "the ovens don't cook properly."  What does that mean?  Wood Stone ovens have the largest thermal mass of any oven out there, the most thermal headspace of anyone, that translated into energy skippy.  Also, do you know where wood stone locates their themocouple for their temp readout?  Let me know in your next post if you do.  If not I will be happy to tell you.  When did you stand in front of a wood stone oven and shoot some floor temps with an ifra-red gun so you know for sure what temps they are achieving?  I have.  If you want to play in the big leauges son, you should have your facts straight.


Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: Wood Stone pizza ovens
« Reply #30 on: August 30, 2005, 11:24:13 AM »
Repguy,

I do not work for any association, but I have been offered to be part of one and I have declined as I would like to be independent and not commercial.

You pay a fee to VPN and they approve you as far as you do not cook a pizza in an electric oven.

I have seen cooking (2-3 minutes) the pizza at the pizza show. I have also tasted those pizza and see they way these looked. There is not comparison. I believe even you earlier have said that the wood stone ovens cannot cook a Neapolitan pie...

Anyway the reading of the temperature do not make much sense to me, because what is important is the product coming out of the oven. And Neapolitan pizza coming from a Neapolitan oven are nothing similar to the pizza I have seen coming out of Wood Stone ovens...


I trust more then anything my eyes and my other senses. I know how to work behind an oven and I know I to turn out Neapolitan pizza, so your challenge would be to find someone that makes a pizza as good as mine in a wood stone oven. Or find someone that has worked with Neapolitan ovens and that tried to produce a proper pie in wood stone oven or any prefabricated ones. The Neapolitan pizzaiolo at the NYC pizza show (Falanga) was almost frustrated by that oven...

In few months, I have the feeling that there will be few proper hand made Neapolitan ovens in NYC, so I will invite you to see with your eyes what I am talking about. There is not material that can imitate the properties of Sorrento clay, Vesuvius volcanic sand, and the techniques of a proper Neapolitan oven builder.

Offline Repguy

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Re: Wood Stone pizza ovens
« Reply #31 on: August 30, 2005, 11:26:15 AM »
Oh yeah, one other thing, I have found.  It 's not the temp that is so important, but the bake.  By the way, have you ever been to Tutta Bella?  Seen their pies, VPN certified, excellent pies, high temps, great bake.  Or don't you want to talk about that because they are doing it well in a wood stone oven?  Also, if your oven is so great, how come people aren't flocking to your door for their restaurants?  Seems in your mind, you have a gold mine, why don't you go replace those wood stones?
« Last Edit: August 30, 2005, 11:28:26 AM by Repguy »

Offline Repguy

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Re: Wood Stone pizza ovens
« Reply #32 on: August 30, 2005, 11:30:23 AM »
So when are you going to give me the name of the place the oven that was at the show is installed since you said, it is not holding up?  Put your money where your mouth is sonny.

Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: Wood Stone pizza ovens
« Reply #33 on: August 30, 2005, 11:59:56 AM »
Repguy,

I don't build ovens and do not sell them. I know you have some sort of interest in Wood Stone so I let you talk....

I can put my money where my mouth is at any time. People do queue at my door for my consultancy. The people that build proper Neapolitan ovens, are three family of artisan in Naples. They are not corporation so it is hard to organise them to ship or build in US. There would be no context if it were easy to get a Neapolitan oven.

The oven at the NYC show has showed me of not being able to do a proper job. Where it is now or who is using it doesn't bother me. I have also met the owner of tutta bella, and I do not disclose the conversation we had, but let's say that he admittedly had difficulties in reproducing a Neapolitan pizza in his pizzeria (I have still his business card with me...).

I have just visited the Wood Stone site and also notice that two of the worst wood burning pizza produced in UK are produced in Wood Stone ovens (Strada and Zizzi).

I have also seen the picture of a pizza coming out of their oven  (bottom of the page http://www.woodstone-corp.com/cooking_naples_style_oven.htm). Just compare it to the pizzas I have just posted in No Comment, Salvo and Caccialli threads....

This is the reason why I do write about ovens on this forum or other parts:

In US most of the people did not have any information on a Neapolitan Oven and just assumed that any wood ovens would do, or even that a coal oven was better. Then when you see at the disappointing products coming out of these ovens , people also assumed that Neapolitan pizza are all like that...



« Last Edit: August 30, 2005, 12:01:49 PM by pizzanapoletana »

Offline ilpizzaiolo

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Re: Wood Stone pizza ovens
« Reply #34 on: August 30, 2005, 12:49:13 PM »
marco is 100% right. The ovens that were used in new york put out a bad neapolitan pizza. I was embarrassed for the vera pizza association attempting to promote the pizza of naples and putting out a substandard pizza. The woodstone oven is not entirely to blame as the VPN table was using cheap ingredients and dough that had little rise time. which resulted in a generic/bland pizza without character. (usually what you get a any one the vpn certified pizzerie in america)  Woodstone makes excellent all-purpose ovens,  but NOT if you are trying to make an authentic neapolitan pizza. Much the same way king arthur special flour will make a good neapolitan pizza, but to make an authentic one you need 00 flour. It is all the elements combined. I have never had a good neapolitan pizza at naples 45.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Wood Stone pizza ovens
« Reply #35 on: August 30, 2005, 01:35:23 PM »
Please guys, let's not get personal and focus on the facts.

Peter

Offline David

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Re: Wood Stone pizza ovens
« Reply #36 on: August 30, 2005, 02:26:19 PM »
I'm interested in Repguy's comments as I have built my own woodfired oven at home (approx 42") and will probably consider buying a commercial oven in the future.What do you believe sets Woodstone ovens above the competition (MAM,Forno Bravo,Acunto etc.)-assuming you do believe they are better ?)I think we can agree that the price tag is somewhat higher than most,I  just don't know why.What personal  experience  have you had cooking with one and how does it compare with ovens with a lower / higher dome?Do you reccomend a gas assisted oven for commercial purposes?I know the VPN Certified Bertucci's at one time (since suspended-naughty boys !) and I was incredibly disappointed by the Pizza they produced ,so unfortunately I don't really find that "Seal of approval" as a benchmark for true Neapolitan Pizza.Thanks for your comments Repguy.
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Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: Wood Stone pizza ovens
« Reply #37 on: August 30, 2005, 02:30:54 PM »
Repguy,

Let's all maintain a polite conversation.

Then again this is a forum and anyone can write their opinions, providing enough information for everybody else to make up their minds. The forum is not Sponsored by woodstone or any Neapolitan Oven artisan, so we are free to post all opinions. What I am increasingly concern is that people can misunderstand, and believe that an authentic Neapolitan pizza can be produced in any wood oven. Just for the record, I am not Italian, but Neapolitan with a family record in the city going back to 1500.

My expertise are recognized around the traditional Neapolitan operators, as well as by the Italian Ministry of Agriculture which had to recognized some mistakes made by the official association, when I presented them with a proper research...

Anyway, I don't lie and this is a fact. When I write about something I also post pictures...

By the way, most in this forum knows that English is not my mother tongue. Now if you read the message in the context it was written into (And by the way, the Wood Stone ovens at last year NYC pizza show (gas fired), have not held up.), I was talking about the pizza at the show not what the ovens produced after the show, or at least that is what it means to me even reading it again. You have taken it as I said after the show have not held up, but I did not say so. The fact is that a prefabricated ovens is not comparable to an hand made one.

Talking about facts again, on the Wood Stone website (yours or your company one???) I quote:

"Left only on the intense floor these pizzas would surely burn before the tops are colored nicely"

Facts: A Neapolitan oven has to have the floor to balance the power of what we call "Cielo" or the heat in the air that is given by the low dome ceiling (on the quote above seam to state the opposite).

"Cook times average 60-90 seconds, with most closer to 60 seconds"

Facts: cooking time (measured) at Da Michele (mostly recognized as the BEST pizzeria in Naples), Costa, Sorbillo average between 45-90 seconds (depending of the service time) with a most likely cooking time at peak below 60 and just above 45 seconds.

And then two quotes posted in two different section of the website:

Talking about pizza in Naples:
"every pizza is spun 180 degrees and then lifted 4-6 inches off the oven floor within the last 10-15 seconds. This elevates the pizza into the smoky part of the oven dome, creating the potential to influence flavor profile."


Talking about Wood vs Gas:
"Our answer is that there is actually no difference in the quality or taste of food between a wood fired or gas fired oven. The differences in fuel configuration are operational."


....?????
« Last Edit: September 06, 2005, 06:11:49 PM by pizzanapoletana »

Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: Wood Stone pizza ovens
« Reply #38 on: August 30, 2005, 03:15:19 PM »
Just for the record, when I have baked Neapolitan pizza in a Wood Oven, has always been in a Pizzeria environment, apart of one time when I was 13 and we had a pizza party at my relative home.

Where I have learned in Naples we make 180-200 pizza an hour at lunch with one oven.

In the best place where I have been learning we would make 850-1200 pizza a day (again with one oven). This is a Neapolitan reality. You cannot find pizzeria that makes those number outside Naples in any part of Italy.
I have learned to make 56 liter of water batch of dough, twice a day....

OK, so can you post the pictures of your pizza?

Mine Are available in various post.



« Last Edit: September 06, 2005, 06:10:32 PM by pizzanapoletana »

Offline ilpizzaiolo

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Re: Wood Stone pizza ovens
« Reply #39 on: August 31, 2005, 10:41:46 AM »
i have never eaten a good neapolitan pizza out or a woodstone oven. and marco is right when he refers to the pictures on the woodstone website showing pictures of neapolitan pizza baked in the woodstone oven. That picture of the pizza they are promoting is overbaked and didn't get the right cornicione due to the oven temperature being to low. I don't think anyone here is saying woodstone ovens suck. I think they are some of the best in the industry and they have some of the best customer support (and most loyal fans apparently). But for making a true neapolitan pizza, in is not the best choice. It is very simple.

 Can i make a neapolitan pizza with king arthur flour, kosher salt, instant yeast, tap water(dough risen for 6 hours), crushed california tomatoes, grande fior di latte, imported romano, fresh basil, extra virgin olive oil from tuscany and bake it in a woodstone oven.....  yes I can and it will come out nice.

Or make one using caputo 00 pizza flour, italian sea salt, cake yeast or starter, filtered water (dough risend for 15 hours), crushed imported san marzano tomatoes, fresh mozzarella di bufala, sini fulvi romano, fresh basil, olive oil from campagna, and bake it in a neapolitan oven.

The second will be far superior? All of the elements need to come together just right to get an authentic neapolitan pizza. The ONLY way to get a true neapolitan pizza is to bake it in a neapolitan oven.

I have recommended woodstone ovens to many people  as it is a great all purpose oven, but for neapolitan pizza, which is something very specific (although people have many misconceptions about it, including many of the vera pizza operators in the U.S.) ,  you need the right oven for the job.


 

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