My first experiment of dough

[grayman]

Gray,

I have no idea as to what happened to your dough. I'd like to suggest that you repeat the experiment but decide what you want to do up front and not to make changes later. For example, if you want to make two dough balls, make the dough batch for two dough balls and divide them up front before placing the dough balls in the refrigerator. If you want to make four dough balls to make even smaller pizzas, do the division up front again before placing the dough balls in the refrigerator. Looking at the recipe you used, I do not see anything out of order. However, it could be that your flour does not have a sufficient protein content and, as a result, you are not getting sufficient gluten formation.

The length of time that the dough balls can be kept in the refrigerator before using will depend primarily on the amount of yeast and the temperatures involved, including the water temperature used, the finished dough temperature, the duration of any room temperature fermentation before refrigerating, and the temperature of your refrigerator. Under normal circumstances, a dough with 0.35% IDY should be ready to use in about 2 days and last maybe another day or two beyond that. If you use it too soon, there might not be sufficient fermentation and the dough might not rise enough and your finished crust might not be particularly tasty. At that point, the dough might also be on the stiff and elastic side.

Once the dough is taken out of the refrigerator to temper (warm up), the time it takes for the dough to be ready to use to make a skin will depend on the room temperature. In the summer, with a warm kitchen, it might take an hour or so. It will depend on how hot it is. In the winter, it might take 1 1/2-2 hours, again depending on how cold it is. Technically, you should be able to use the dough when its temperature reaches about 55-57 degrees F, but I have found that I get better results when the dough is warmer, maybe around 65 degrees F (assuming that room temperature is that high).

I don't recall if I referred you to the thread starting at Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.msg19563/topicseen.html#msg19563. If not, you might want to look at that thread, including a video showing how to open dough balls.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for your reply and comments.
I have make another two doughs that day with the same recipe.one was put in the refrigerator as normal while the other was stay at room temperature(64F) with a plastic wrap over night,and it rose more than double time and some sag on the top,I open it and it get more uniform thickness and extensible.I bake it about 8 minutes and it got some airy in the rim(looks white but not brown) but also a little tough with crumb and without any chewy and sweet.
The dough in the refrigerator looks not rise but a little,if you suggest me to use it after 2-3 days fermentation even though it not rise more,or that is normal in cold fermentation?since my last ball have been fermentation for 4 days,and I get problems,do you think it has been over fermentation?

Gray

[Chicago Bob]

Gray,

I think I would try a new, fresh bag of flour...maybe even try a different brand or two. Couldn't hurt, no?

Bob

[Pete-zza]

The dough in the refrigerator looks not rise but a little,if you suggest me to use it after 2-3 days fermentation even though it not rise more,or that is normal in cold fermentation?since my last ball have been fermentation for 4 days,and I get problems,do you think it has been over fermentation?

Gray,

It is hard to say. But, as between the room temperature fermented dough and the cold fermented dough, it is more likely that the room temperature fermented dough was much closer to overfermenting than the one in your refrigerator. It is not uncommon for a cold fermented dough to not rise in a very noticeable way. It might flatten and spread and lead you to believe that it didn't rise when in fact it did.

Can you get more information on the flour you have been using?

Peter

[grayman]

Peter,

Actually,I do not know more information about the flour since I purchased them from supermarket separated with a mark "high gluten flour",even I do not know if it is real or not that was basing on I'd like to know what is a actually dough as a totally newbie.So I think I will buy some big bag flour (50lbs) to define my further dough.BTW,Peter,can you give some tricks on how to distinguish a four is high gluten or not?for example,by see or touch.

Just now,I take out my dough mixed 3 days ago from my refrigerator to warm up at 65F room temperature. I will try to open it after 2 hours and see if it will look like last dough I failed.
And I have not a optimistic presage when I saw the dough is not rise more and flat.later I will see.

Gray

[grayman]

I have baked my second dough,and the result is out of my thought.
When I opened the dough,it is east to stretch.The texture is more uniform than last dough but also I could see the center is a little thin that the rim,although only I extent the rim.
Then I coat some retail pizza sauce and add some fresh basil,bacon and more Anchor Mozzarella,bake at the low layer 6 minutes and at top additional 1-2 minutes.
The crumb is more soft and chewy(not like last time,it is tough),and the rim is full of airy.But I think the flavor is light(like some bread) with any sweet I could taste and the rim is so white without any color.
I do not know what is a good pizza,but I think this dough is much better except the flavor with some sweet.
Maybe I should use the dough in 2 days,I do not know if it could taste some sweet,but I will try.
Anyway,I think I finally work out a soso pizza.

Gray

[Pete-zza]

BTW,Peter,can you give some tricks on how to distinguish a four is high gluten or not?for example,by see or touch.

Gray,

I recall some time ago reading an article in which the chef said that she could tell different flours apart by feel and possibly other characteristics (maybe color). I never had to develop that skill since I usually know a fair amount about the flours that I (and others) use, either through flour specifications or other sources, including this forum.

There are also tests that can be conducted on basic doughs to get an idea as to gluten content. You can read about them at Reply 23 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,783.msg7865/topicseen.html#msg7865. Again, I never had a need to conduct tests like these to determine gluten content, even on a relative basis. However, I am thinking of asking Norma to consider such tests for some Mellow Mushroom dough balls that she now has in her possession.

Peter

[Chicago Bob]

Gray,

Congratulations! The journey begins....don't worry too much about the color or other issues you mention,Peter will probably fix that in just one post...he is awesome!

When you said "result is out of my thought", I almost lost my coffee through my nose from laughter!! 
Your bake procedure sounds like it worked pretty good for you. How was the bottom of the pie? Glad to see you have something we can work with now.  Good job!

Bob

[grayman]

Bob,

Thanks for your comment and encouragement,I will go ahead.
And the bottom of the pie,I do not get this in mind since I do not know it is a factor to inspect a pie before.But I recall one point that it is not easy for me to cut up with my pizza rolling cutter.and we could fold the slice.

Sorry for my inaccurate phrase make you laughing... Maybe unexpected would be my actual meaning,I think you should know,hah...
Since I am not native in English you know,please forget it.
And let me bring to another phrase "people mountain people sea",could you imagine?
Just like the below pictures show Apple open to sell its iphone here last week.(Apple suspend the sale after one day.)

Gray

[grayman]

Gray,

Can you get more information on the flour you have been using?

Peter

Peter,

I do not get more information about flour now,since last attempts are using some separated bags flours,I am not sure if they are real or not.
But I will purchase one big bag Golden Statue Brand flour from the distributor to go on,it is from Lam Soon Hong Kong Group. (http://www.lamsoon.com/en/index_en.aspx)

Gray

[Chicago Bob]

Gray,

Being able to fold a pizza slice on this type of dough is a good thing.And if you can hear a nice crisp crackling sound when you run your pizza cutting wheel across the pie, that is a most excellent thing!! Keep up the good work, Gray, I have a feeling this is not going to take you very long.

Please don't apologize for your word phrasing...I am enjoying it!
People mountain people sea in English is phrased as...a sea of people.
That photo of the crowd outside the Apple store is amazing! Some people here in the U.S. would also maybe use the phrase....monkey see monkey do! No disrespect intended,Gray...it's just something we say when people do something only because others are doing it too.  Gotta have that i-phone!!

Bob

[grayman]

Bob,

Thanks for explanation about what is a good crumb and "this is not going to take you very long".You know your kind encourage is very important to a newbie

And the coming days in China will be crowd and happy days too,since Chinese lunar new year is coming.
Happy New Year!

Gray

[grayman]

Peter,

We make 4 doughs as below formulation to make a side-side comparison:
#1, bread flour 100%, water 58%, IDY 0.3%, salt 1.5%, sugar 2%;
#2, bread flour 100%, water 58%, IDY 0.3%, salt 1.5%, no sugar;
@40F,cold fermentation 69 hours to use

#3, bread flour 100%, water 58%, IDY 0.7%, salt 1.5%, sugar 2%;
#4, bread flour 100%, water 58%, IDY 0.7%, salt 1.5%, no sugar;
@freeze 24 hours,then cold ferment 45h to use

all baked at 480F about 8 minutes near the bottom side in my simple electric oven.
after the comparison,I can think that these doughs are better than before,and thehydration and yeast level could work,but there are severl questions want to ask:
1, all the rim(no matter the dough adding sugar or not ) look so white although I coat some oil before baking,any suggestion to the rim look more golden？
2, we think that the frozen balls are more good since they get chewy crumb and the straigh cold ferment balls are quite crisp and less airy in it.any comment over it？

thanks in advance!

Gray

[Pete-zza]

Gray,

From what you report, it sounds like you are not getting enough top heat, quite possibly because of the low oven temperature you have been using (480 degrees F) and possibly the oven itself. Once the bottoms of the pizzas are baked to your satisfaction, you might try lifting the pizzas to a higher oven rack position to get more top heat to provide more color on the rims. You might even have to turn the broiler on for a brief period. If those measures don't work, you may have to consider possible modifications to your oven or use a different type of baking medium (a better stone or use of steel as a baking surface) or use different oven rack positions. Ultimately, these kinds of problems should go away once you get a commercial oven.

The differences between the two sets of dough balls is likely due to the different fermentation periods and the low oven temperature. Freezing dough balls get very little fermentation--they get some initially as they cool down (and then become frozen) and again when the dough balls defrost and warm up prior to using. While the dough balls are frozen, they get no fermentation whatsoever. So, several hours of the 45 hours that the defrosting dough balls spend in the refrigerator are spent defrosting. By contrast, the other dough balls that were not frozen get 69 hours of fermentation time. The different amounts of fermentations produce different amounts and types of fermentation byproducts that contribute to the color, flavor, taste, aroma and texture of the finished crusts. The oven comes into the picture because you need a lot of heat to get good oven spring. That applies to both sets of dough balls.

Peter

[Chicago Bob]

Peter,

That was an excellent post(as always)....thank you.

Bob

[Pete-zza]

Peter,

That was an excellent post(as always)....thank you.

Bob

Bob,

You're welcome. I only hope the explanation is correct and helps solve Gray's problems.

Peter

[grayman]

Peter,

I found one "Bread Improver",ibis 300,of Lesaffre from the market yesterday,it said it could "improve dough strength and give more shinning golden brown crust" and "adapted to different types of flour".

Do you know such products ever and if it could real work?

Gray

[grayman]

Peter and Norma,

I mixed some doughs recently,and I found that there are some difference when I took the dough out from the refrigerator and let them warm up at room temperature for different hours(for example,open the dough after half  hour,one hour, two hour and more), I could not say out which warm up time is perfect?
Meanwhile there is a question that how to settle the warm up time to get the dough in good situation to fit the customers' sporadic order? Any comments over it would be appreciated!

Gray

[norma427]

Gray,

These are only my experiences with the dough I regularly use at market.  The market temperatures can vary very much in temperature depending what season of the year it is in our area.  What I have found with my regular dough balls is I need to watch them when sitting out at whatever room temperature it is to see if they are ready to be opened or see if they might be fermenting too much.  My dough can be opened right out of the fridge, if need be, but is harder to open and might develop bubbles in the middle.  I can take care of the bubbles with a bubble popper.  If my dough looks like it is fermenting too fast, then I just put it back into the fridge and open it without a lot of warm-up time.  I have never found a perfect time to open dough balls, because market temperatures are never the same. I rely on how the dough balls look and how the dough is fermenting, even on experimental dough balls.

I believe you will learn after practice about when to open your dough balls, and when they look warmed-up enough.  That usually comes from experience and watching.  Each dough might behave differently depending on if oil is added in higher amounts, yeast amounts, hydration, room temperature, and other variables.  It still is a guessing game for me sometimes when an experimental dough might be ready. 

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Gray,

What Norma says is correct. Technically, you can use the dough balls when they reach a temperature of around 56 degrees F. However, I prefer that they be higher than that. Also, in a commercial environment, it is hard to use dough temperature as a guide as to when to use the dough balls. Most pizza places learn over time how many dough balls they will use in a given period and simply remove that number of dough balls from the cooler about an hour or two beforehand, depending on the room temperature. Once the dough balls are ready to use, they will last a few hours longer.

If you are not doing a steady business of making pizzas, it can be difficult to make pizzas to order, one by one. If your volume of pizzas is low, then you may have to look to other solutions for meeting the needs of your customers.

Peter