PIzza Dough over rising and deflating?? Help

[pizzaNak]

Hi guys I'm having an issue. I'm been making pizza for a a while now but my dough seems to deflate and sink then just turn into mush after I let it rise for anything over 8 hours. I'm using instant dry yeast, about 7 grams to make 4 13 inch dough balls. I always proof the yeast 1st for about 15 minutes with sugar and warm water. It seems after 4 hours it starts to sink. I'd like to do an overnight rise and not have this issue.
I'm guessing the longer I leave it the better it will taste.

Any info would be great guys!!


thanks

[Jet_deck]

What is the temperature of the dough when you finish mixing?  Do you use warm water only to proof the yeast or warm water for the entire batch of dough?  What is the temperature of the room that the dough rests in or is it in the fridge?

These answers may help find your problem(s)

[pizzaNak]

Ok when i proof the IDY I use warm water not sure the temp but it's luke warm. I probably don't need to proof it but I have gotten in the habit of doing it. I use cold tap water for the rest and mix it all together then hand kneed it for about 12 mins. I'm in the kitchen so it's about room temp. Once needed I make the dough balls and place in a plastic sealed container which has a few holes in it, not sure if that's a problem. Then I put it in the fridge.
After 4 hours it has almost doubled in size. If I was to leave it overnight, by the morning it would look very flat and almost like it has lost its structure. Any longer and it would end up as a paste.

thanks

[Jet_deck]

Ok, can you give us the full recipe?  Do you measure by volume or weight?  Really interested in seeing how much flour you use for the four 13" dough balls.   Are they in balls or bulk when into the fridge ?

Thanks.

[buceriasdon]

Cut back on the amount of yeast your using presently.

[pizzaNak]

Hi there I used Lehmann Pizza Dough Calculator to make 3 dough balls. Below are the exact ingredients. The flour I used was

http://www.waitrose.com/shop/ProductView-10317-10001-2744-Waitrose+very+strong+Canadian+white+flour



Flour (100%):    702.36 g  |  24.77 oz | 1.55 lbs
Water (63%):    442.49 g  |  15.61 oz | 0.98 lbs
IDY (0.5%):    3.51 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.17 tsp | 0.39 tbsp
Salt (3%):    21.07 g | 0.74 oz | 0.05 lbs | 4.39 tsp | 1.46 tbsp
Oil (2%):    14.05 g | 0.5 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.12 tsp | 1.04 tbsp
Sugar (2%):    14.05 g | 0.5 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.52 tsp | 1.17 tbsp
Total (170.5%):   1197.52 g | 42.24 oz | 2.64 lbs | TF = 0.10608
Single Ball:   399.17 g | 14.08 oz | 0.88 lbs


thanks

[pizzaNak]

Could it be the amount of yeast that is breaking down the structure after leaving it for over 8 hours?

[pizzaNak]

Oh they are rolled into balls when in the fridge and I measure in grams.

thanks

[Jet_deck]

pizzaNak, if you look at the Emergency (ready in a few hours) recipes, specifically the Lehman Style NY recipe, you will see that Peter is using .75 IDY
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg27251.html#msg27251

The dough is ready in a couple hours.  Would you consider trying .25 IDY ?

[pizzaNak]

Thanks, ultimately I'd like to let the dough rise for 24 hours
To give a better flavour. I haven't managed it yet. Am I right in
saying the less yeast you use the longer you can leave it to rise?

Also why does the dough break down after a long time say 9 hours.
Is this the yeast expanding then dying??

Thanks for all the info guys!!

[buceriasdon]

Thanks for posting the recipe. That makes it easier to see what's happening. 2% sugar is the upper limit recommended but I see you are using 3% salt which should cut the yeast activity back some. I prefer 1% or less sugar(actually I rarely use sugar) and 2% salt(3% to my tastes is too much). After seeing the formula I would leave the yeast amount alone for now and cut back the sugar for a extended ferment time. Sometimes it's just trying to find what works for you.
Don

[Pizzamaster]

If your dough is turning into mush there is something beyond the recipe going on. Check your refrigerator and make sure it is in the mid 30's. As far as the dough goes the one I make uses more yeast and less salt than yours so I don't think that is the problem. I don't use sugar. Yeast is bullet proof these days and there's plenty to chow on in the flour. And it only needs to be bloomed for about five minutes. And leaving the sugar out let's me use temperature at the proofing catalyst. If I leave it on the counter I can have dough ready to go in an hour or so. If I stick it in the fridge it will lay there like a dead hooker and take days to double.

[The Dough Doctor]

Also, make sure you have a sufficiently high protein level in your flour. We normally like to see about 13% protein content in the flour. A quick call to the manufacturer should get you the protein content, or you can add some vital wheat gluten to the dough formula. I would suggest adding 8% (flour basis) of additional gluten plus 12% (flour basis) additional water. Be sure to dry blend the gluten into the flour before adding the water.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

[buceriasdon]

pizzaNak, You are using a very high gluten flour presently and that's not the problem. I'll stay with my recommendation to cut back the amount of yeast you are using if going for a longer cold ferment. If as you say it is doubling in size in four hours in the fridge that's way too much activity for that length of time.
Don

[Ken]

PizzaNak, I observed in your first post that you said you were using about 7 grams of yeast for four pies. I know the recipe you posted was for 3 pies but the yeast for three pies was only 3.51 grams. Seems like you are using about twice the amount of yeast you should. If I'm missing something I apologize otherwise this is probably your problem. Good Luck, Ken

[pizzaNak]

Hi everyone thanks for all the replies. I've been experimenting recently. I bought a huge bag of caputo pizzeria flour.

http://www.nifeislife.com/caputo-wheat-flour-pizzeria-25kg-p-1064.html

I tried using no sugar or oil in one of my test and less water and less yeast. My dough balls kept there shape better but started to sink after 8 hours.

I did the same test another day but without out salt and sugar just flour, water and yeast. This came out a lot worse I made the dough balls then placed it in the fridge in a large plastic container and after about 4 hours they had completely lost there shape and looked like a pancakes. If you were to pick them up they would have fell apart in your hand.

There is something going on here but not quite sure.
The only reason I want to try at 24 hour rise is to develop more flavour.

I notice people do 2 rises. After the 1st rise they make the dough balls then let rise again in the fridge.
Haven't tried this yet

thanks

[buceriasdon]

Flattening out is normal. Did you take them out and watched what happened after a couple of hours, that's what's important?
Don

[fcbuilder]

Hi there I used Lehmann Pizza Dough Calculator to make 3 dough balls. Below are the exact ingredients. The flour I used was

http://www.waitrose.com/shop/ProductView-10317-10001-2744-Waitrose+very+strong+Canadian+white+flour



Flour (100%):    702.36 g  |  24.77 oz | 1.55 lbs
Water (63%):    442.49 g  |  15.61 oz | 0.98 lbs
IDY (0.5%):    3.51 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.17 tsp | 0.39 tbsp
Salt (3%):    21.07 g | 0.74 oz | 0.05 lbs | 4.39 tsp | 1.46 tbsp
Oil (2%):    14.05 g | 0.5 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.12 tsp | 1.04 tbsp
Sugar (2%):    14.05 g | 0.5 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.52 tsp | 1.17 tbsp
Total (170.5%):   1197.52 g | 42.24 oz | 2.64 lbs | TF = 0.10608
Single Ball:   399.17 g | 14.08 oz | 0.88 lbs


thanks

hey how's it going, just want to add some things . First  you don't have to proof the idy .I would also cut the yeast to  3/4 of a teaspoon, sugar to half a teaspoon and salt to 2%.Mixing I would start with about 3/4 the flour and mix for about 2 min just until everything is incorporated .Let rest for 20 min and then start kneading for about 8-10 min adding flour along the way.let rest for another 20 ,ball them and retard them in the fridge.the activity of the dough should not be so high at the 24 hour mark but once you take them out and let them proof for an hour they will come alive. Give this a try!