Author Topic: Made in Detroit - my attempts at DS  (Read 1139 times)

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Offline MotoMannequin

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Made in Detroit - my attempts at DS
« on: June 08, 2016, 02:28:54 PM »
My wife and I are originally from Detroit, and since moving away have always missed, among other things, Detroit-style pizza. Now that my brick oven is functional, I've been trying to find ways to take advantage of residual heat, days after firing for Neopolitan. Inspired by this forum, I decided to give DS a go.

The pan is 8x10 PSTK from Detroit Style Pizza Co https://www.detroitstylepizza.com/product/detroit-style-pizza-pan/

For the dough, I did:
100% KABF
77% spring water
3% EVOO
2.5% sea salt
3.5% Camaldoli starter, from Craig's fermentation table targeting 24 hours at 70F.

I was shooting for a 275g dough ball, but the wet sticky dough resulted in much more waste than I was expecting, and I ended up at 255g.

I dissolved the starter and salt in the water, then mixed all ingredients. Did slap-and-fold for several minutes, then again twice more after 30 minute rests. The dough was starting to look smooth by then, but I probably could have gone longer. My schedule didn't allow me to knead it further. I balled at it room temp for 18 hours, then pressed it into the pan, greased with coconut oil, for a 6 hour rise.

The sauce is Bianco di Napoli tomatoes run through a coarse food mill, left over from last weekend's Margherita, reduced with garlic, fresh oregano, fresh basil, and salt.

For the cheese, there's no such thing as "Brick Cheese" in California, so I approximated it by mixing 50/50 some Muenster and some local farmhouse cheese which is equivalent to a medium cheddar. Also I added some low-moisture mozzarella, accidentally bought part-skim.

The other topping is Field Roast, a vegetarian substitute for Italian sausage.

It went into my oven, 24 hours after firing to Neopolitan temps. Normally I expect the oven to be at about 475F at this stage, but it was closer to 400F. This baked about 18 minutes, and maybe could have gone a little longer.

Results... not bad, but not perfect. The crust was a little flat and a little chewy. I can think of several ways that might improve it, but open to suggestions. Maybe the toppings weighed it down, so less cheese and/or put the sauce on after? Maybe a hotter oven? Less hydration? More time for the 2nd rise?

It popped out of the pan really easily. In all this was too easy, compared to the heartaches I've had doing other styles.

« Last Edit: June 08, 2016, 02:30:58 PM by MotoMannequin »

Offline MotoMannequin

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Re: Made in Detroit - my attempts at DS
« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2016, 02:29:53 PM »
Continued...

Offline TonyRicci

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Re: Made in Detroit - my attempts at DS
« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2016, 05:46:23 PM »
3% seems like a lot of oil, wouldn't that give the crust more chew than crunch?   Nice oven.

Offline MotoMannequin

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Re: Made in Detroit - my attempts at DS
« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2016, 12:06:12 PM »
3% seems like a lot of oil, wouldn't that give the crust more chew than crunch?   Nice oven.

Thanks! The oil is an interesting point. On another site it was suggested to me to get the pizza out of the pan and onto a cooling rack as quickly as possible. Then someone asked me, what was the purpose of the oil in the dough, and my only answer was that it is typical in DS recipes.

So now I wonder, what is the point of the oil? What if I left it out?

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Made in Detroit - my attempts at DS
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2016, 04:28:32 PM »
Larry,

Buddy's, where the DS pizza began, uses no oil in the dough, only in shaping the dough in the pans. Likewise, Jet's does not use oil in the dough for its version of the DS.

Peter

Offline MotoMannequin

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Re: Made in Detroit - my attempts at DS
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2016, 06:14:02 PM »
Thanks Peter. That's a great data point. I added oil because all the DS clone recipes I could find called for it, but I'm there's often not a core reason for why recipes are how they are, and I'm completely comfortable leaving out the EVOO.

Buddy's is basically my target. Where I grew up on the west side, Buddy's was closest, so it's what I grew up on, and to a lesser extent, Shield's. The east side places, might as well have been in Canada.

Offline HBolte

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Re: Made in Detroit - my attempts at DS
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2016, 06:34:05 PM »
I have made DS with 2% oil and without oil. I actually think the DS with oil was closer to Buddy's but not really that much difference between the two. I'll have to do a side by side comparison soon.
Hans

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Made in Detroit - my attempts at DS
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2016, 06:48:19 PM »
Buddy's is basically my target. Where I grew up on the west side, Buddy's was closest, so it's what I grew up on, and to a lesser extent, Shield's. The east side places, might as well have been in Canada.
Larry,

Pretty much all of what I was able to find about the Buddy's pizza is reflected in Reply 126 at:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3783.msg81436#msg81436

Trying to replicate an existing dough formulation isn't always the easiest thing to do, and one of the disconnects is often the way the pizza is baked, which can include the type of pan used and the type of oven used, and also the related bake temperatures and times. So, it is not uncommon to see members modify their formulations to work in their particular oven configurations.

Peter

Offline MotoMannequin

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Re: Made in Detroit - my attempts at DS
« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2016, 06:52:53 PM »
Thanks. I did read most of that thread this week. I don't care about replicating Buddy's recipe per se, but my pizza was, by my hazy recollection, a bit more dense and soft than what I remember. Correcting that is what I'm after. If it's the oil, the a couple experiments should clear it up.

Offline RockyMountainPie

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Re: Made in Detroit - my attempts at DS
« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2016, 11:54:30 PM »
Larry,

I think you will like your results when using no oil in your Detroit style dough.  This is one I recently made using 75% hydration and no oil. Yum!

 Tim


 

Offline MotoMannequin

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Re: Made in Detroit - my attempts at DS
« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2016, 03:19:17 AM »
Yes that last shot is the open crumb you can see I'm missing in my penultimate pic. I guess you did sauce after baking too?

Thank you Tim.

Offline RockyMountainPie

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Re: Made in Detroit - my attempts at DS
« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2016, 04:23:18 AM »
Yes that last shot is the open crumb you can see I'm missing in my penultimate pic. I guess you did sauce after baking too?

Thank you Tim.

Larry,

I do like the open crumb.  A long room temperature ferment with the dough in the pan (and covered) seems to work best for me to get that.  I put the sauce on during the last 5 to 10 minutes of the bake.

Tim


Offline norma427

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Re: Made in Detroit - my attempts at DS
« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2016, 08:26:29 AM »
Larry,

I don't know if you looked at the Two Bill's thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=21559.0   
It didn't start out as a Buddy's thread, but there is a lot of information on that thread about trying to make a Buddy's Detroit style pizza.  I like no oil in the dough, but then I didn't ever try oil.

Norma

Offline MotoMannequin

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Re: Made in Detroit - my attempts at DS
« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2016, 11:19:19 AM »
Larry,

I do like the open crumb.  A long room temperature ferment with the dough in the pan (and covered) seems to work best for me to get that.  I put the sauce on during the last 5 to 10 minutes of the bake.

Tim

So what's your definition of "long"? I did 18 hours bulk, punched it down then 6 in the pan. I probably would have gone 12/12 but my schedule didn't permit it.

Offline MotoMannequin

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Re: Made in Detroit - my attempts at DS
« Reply #14 on: June 10, 2016, 11:19:41 AM »
Larry,

I don't know if you looked at the Two Bill's thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=21559.0   
It didn't start out as a Buddy's thread, but there is a lot of information on that thread about trying to make a Buddy's Detroit style pizza.  I like no oil in the dough, but then I didn't ever try oil.

Norma

Thank you Norma, I'll read that thread.

Offline RockyMountainPie

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Re: Made in Detroit - my attempts at DS
« Reply #15 on: June 11, 2016, 12:45:58 PM »
So what's your definition of "long"? I did 18 hours bulk, punched it down then 6 in the pan. I probably would have gone 12/12 but my schedule didn't permit it.

You can achieve an open crumb like this with a 4 to 5 hour "warm" rise (like in an oven at 115 degress) or an 8 hour room temperature rise.  There may be an issue with your starter.  Maybe you should try just using .5% IDY a few times to work out the kinks and then re-visit your starter.

-- Tim

Offline MotoMannequin

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Re: Made in Detroit - my attempts at DS
« Reply #16 on: June 11, 2016, 12:56:08 PM »
Thanks, I have plenty of ideas so far on how to proceed, and I'll follow the principle of not changing more than one thing at a time. I don't believe there's any issue with my starter. I make beautiful Neopolitan pies with it every week.

Offline MotoMannequin

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« Reply #17 on: June 23, 2016, 05:31:54 PM »
My attempt #2 was a no-go last week when an unexpected issue at work kept me from making pizza. I did drizzle the raised dough with some olive oil, oregano, salt, pepper, and parmesan, and made a really delicious focaccia. No pics of that. Not a good week.

This week's might offend the purists, but I had some leftover home-made BBQ sauce, and have fantastic memories of the "Hawaiian" pizza from Buddy's. I did the same mix of cheese as above, about 1/3 low-moisture mozz, 1/3 meunster, 1/3 medium cheddar. That plus BBQ sauce, fresh pineapple, and onions. The crust was 100% KABF, 75% spring water, 2% sea salt, 3.5% camaldoli starter, risen about 12 hours at cool room temp (mid-low 60s), punched down into the pan, then another 12 hours at warm room temp (into the 80s) as is the case with our highly variable summertime temperatures. Somehow the sourdough gods smiled upon me and the rise on the dough was about right with great flavor. The big differences, 12 hour rise, I moved the pizza to a cooling rack right out of the oven, and no oil in the dough. The oven was a little cooler this time, baking with residual heat in my brick oven I have a lot of variability there. This was about 20 minutes at 350F. The dough was better. The toppings... I'm looking forward to getting back to tomato-based next time  :-\


Offline HBolte

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Re: Made in Detroit - my attempts at DS
« Reply #18 on: June 23, 2016, 05:58:57 PM »
Looks good. Interesting bake time. How did it compare to your other bakes?

On my last DS I tried out baking at 475F for about 15 minutes. I'll go back to my normal 525F for 11 minutes.
Hans

Offline MotoMannequin

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Re: Made in Detroit - my attempts at DS
« Reply #19 on: June 23, 2016, 06:20:23 PM »
Looks good. Interesting bake time. How did it compare to your other bakes?

On my last DS I tried out baking at 475F for about 15 minutes. I'll go back to my normal 525F for 11 minutes.

This was a little cooler and a little longer than my others. I'm not sure I noticed much of a difference, but I'm still tweaking my dough recipe so it's difficult to isolate cause-and-effect. I think your 525 approach is ideal.

Part of my goal with this is to see what I can do with residual heat in my oven, the day after firing for Neopolitan. I guess my bricks weren't as saturated with heat as other tries. I was expecting around 450F but it was a lot cooler than that. I could try re-igniting the leftover coals before baking. Sometimes they take off on their own when I allow air into the oven (as seen in post #2 in this thread) but it seems not this time.

Offline MotoMannequin

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Re: Made in Detroit - my attempts at DS
« Reply #20 on: July 28, 2016, 07:41:09 PM »
Here's another effort, getting there but this one had some problems as well.

Dough was 100% KABF, 75% spring water, 9.5% Ischia culture, 2% Kosher salt. 12 hours at 59F then pressed into the pan for 12 hours at a very warm room temp (we're hitting triple digit temps outside, this dough spent most of the day in the 70s and 80s). The rise on the dough looked about right.

Toppings are a mix of fresh mozzarella, "cheddar/gruyere" from Trader Joe's, pizza sauce from the fridge at Trader Joe's, and some home-smoked cherry tomatoes. In case it's not obvious, the toppings were quickly thrown together at Trader Joe's on the way home from a long day at work. About 15 minutes in residual heat in my WFO at about 475F.

This was ok, needed lower moisture mozz, less cheese and less sauce. It had a gumline in some spots. There is a particular challenge to cooking this style of pizza in residual heat in the brick oven, in that it's really difficult to tell when the crust is done, and it's impossible to be consistent with temperature. I haven't burned one yet. If anything this was a little under cooked.

The home-smoked cherry tomatoes are killer. If anybody does any home smoking, I highly recommend doing a batch of cherry tomatoes and storing them under olive oil. It's my new favorite condiment.

For the pizza... seems I blew the shot of the side of the slice. But here's the rest:


 

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