Author Topic: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie  (Read 47179 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline dellavecchia

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2631
Re: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie
« Reply #25 on: January 17, 2012, 03:48:20 PM »
You're visiting the area and not planning a get together?  Did Craig teach you nothing?  ;D

Sorry, I am going to try the bake on Saturday, not visit L&B.

John


scott123

  • Guest
Re: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie
« Reply #26 on: January 17, 2012, 03:51:15 PM »
-I also believe that their dough is not very wet/oily. But, I haven't been able to get close to the gooey texture of their dough without a high % of water and oil. I might try lowering the oil and water by 1.5% and 2%, respectively. I think it has to be higher than a sicilian slice in manhattan.

I've been busy lately and haven't had a chance to reply, but I was going to tell Tyler, along with how great his attempt looks, that I'm thinking L&B has lots of exterior oil, but not that much in the dough. The chewiness could very well be a very high gluten flour (like All Trumps) and high-ish water. Every cross section I've seen of L&B slices has always seemed very moist- and I'm not sure you see that with typical NY 60ish hydrations and 15 minute bakes.

Offline sum1else

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 91
  • Location: NYC
Re: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie
« Reply #27 on: January 17, 2012, 03:52:30 PM »
Using brute force on the Pizza Dough Calculator, I found that 2.5lbs (~1134g) for 18x12 pie would result in a .185 TF.

Offline dellavecchia

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2631
Re: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie
« Reply #28 on: January 17, 2012, 03:56:10 PM »
Using brute force on the Pizza Dough Calculator, I found that 2.5lbs (~1134g) for 18x12 pie would result in a .185 TF.

Good Lord! Well, didn't you do .14 and get a pretty thick crust in your first attempt? I would assume then that if the TF is really that high, then the dough is prevented from raising to heights above the pan through the massively ample layer of sauce.

John
« Last Edit: January 17, 2012, 03:57:50 PM by dellavecchia »

Offline dellavecchia

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2631
Re: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie
« Reply #29 on: January 17, 2012, 03:57:39 PM »
I've been busy lately and haven't had a chance to reply, but I was going to tell Tyler, along with how great his attempt looks, that I'm thinking L&B has lots of exterior oil, but not that much in the dough. The chewiness could very well be a very high gluten flour (like All Trumps) and high-ish water. Every cross section I've seen of L&B slices has always seemed very moist- and I'm not sure you see that with typical NY 60ish hydrations and 15 minute bakes.

Scott - How high a percentage of water do you think would fit through a sheeter? I have never used or even seen one, so I don't know how they operate.

John

Offline sum1else

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 91
  • Location: NYC
Re: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie
« Reply #30 on: January 17, 2012, 03:59:12 PM »
Thanks, Scott. Please keep checking this thread when you have time-your input is invaluable.

John- Yep, I did TF 14.5.

Offline johnnydoubleu

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 222
  • Location: Flatbush
  • Thrill junkie. Baker. Cook. Coder. Aesthete.
    • johnwozniak.com
Re: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie
« Reply #31 on: January 17, 2012, 05:15:07 PM »
I was so into thinking about regular Sicilians that I forgot...yeah I agree that L&B's square does not look pan proofed actually. It lacks those tell tale large voids on the undercrust. Def part of its uniqueness.

I think that we are all generally on the same page about the dough not being that wet and not that oily (the dough). The crumb is pretty dense and kinda of white-bready without being overly spongy. My recollection again is that the crumb itself is not wet (like a pie with potato flour or a lot of oil might be), but about the same dryness as a regular NYC Sicilian just with a denser crumb and possibly a little less oil in the dough. They are steaming though when they come out though. I need to have a slice again to recalibrate my memory from the summer (I live nearby). It's a tough job but I am up for it :).

I would think KA Bread would be an acceptable, accessible flour for the home user for this one. I don't find using a bromated flour "necessary" for good rise but L&B probably does use it.

I can't begin to describe how hungry I am for an L&B slice right now :)! It really is a special slice and place. The restaurant isn't terrible either.

scott123

  • Guest
Re: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie
« Reply #32 on: January 17, 2012, 05:17:15 PM »
Sure thing, Tyler.

That '5 lb.' quote has to be a very rough ballpark. Tyler, you're inclination to go a bit lower in TF is on the money, imo. Your crumb could be a bit more uniform, but I think the oven spring/air to dough ratio is very similar. The crust is just a little on the high side, so a little less dough is in order.

Regarding water... Tyler nailed the undercrust appearance and bake time, and, from my perspective, had an ever slightly drier looking crumb than L&B, so his 69, imo, is on the low end of the spectrum.  I wouldn't go lower- unless the 15 minute bake time is an approximation. A faster bake produces less evaporation/more residual moisture. For 15 minutes, though, I'm feeling 70-72 (with a more NYish level of oil in the dough- maybe 3%).

John, I think, with enough bench flour, you can sheet doughs as high as 80% hydration, although I've never used a sheeter myself.

scott123

  • Guest
Re: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie
« Reply #33 on: January 17, 2012, 05:35:47 PM »
I think that we are all generally on the same page about the dough not being that wet and not that oily (the dough). The crumb is pretty dense and kinda of white-bready without being overly spongy. My recollection again is that the crumb itself is not wet (like a pie with potato flour or a lot of oil might be), but about the same dryness as a regular NYC Sicilian just with a denser crumb and possibly a little less oil in the dough.

Below is a shot of L&B's crumb.  That's looking very wet to me.  It's funny that you mention potato, because that's what I was thinking when I took the screen grab.  I don't think it's potato, but it's potato wet.

And, so far, Tyler hasn't said anything about his crust being noticeably chewier than L&B, which, from my memory, was pretty chewy, so I think 14% protein flour is in order- maybe not 14% bromated, but 14% flour.  If someone's going through the trouble to get 14% they might as well get bromated as well, since, as you said, it's highly likely they're using bromate.


scott123

  • Guest
Re: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie
« Reply #34 on: January 17, 2012, 05:38:37 PM »
Crap, now that I've looked at that photo a bit, it seems like a lot of dough.  Maybe we are talking about a greater thickness factor.  It's a tough call.

Tyler, I'm not sure if this has been mentioned, but, next time, it has to be thinly slice mozz with good sauce coverage.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2012, 05:40:12 PM by scott123 »

Offline johnnydoubleu

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 222
  • Location: Flatbush
  • Thrill junkie. Baker. Cook. Coder. Aesthete.
    • johnwozniak.com
Re: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie
« Reply #35 on: January 17, 2012, 05:45:33 PM »
Below is a shot of L&B's crumb.  That's looking very wet to me.  It's funny that you mention potato, because that's what I was thinking when I took the screen grab.  I don't think it's potato, but it's potato wet.

That is so much wetter than my memory but nonetheless that is it. It looks so amazing doesn't it? This pie is so singular. That is one monster piece of dough needed to make this pie that is for sure. I wonder if that crumb shows a certain level of oil. Maybe it is upwards of 4%.

I was originally thinking it was the same dough they used for their thin crust pie and just handled differently (which is why I though it much less wet) but now I am def not sure. I wish I/we had someone with some firsthand/inside info.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2012, 05:51:32 PM by johnnydoubleu »

Offline dmcavanagh

  • In Memoriam
  • Posts: 1912
  • Location: Glenmont, NY
Re: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie
« Reply #36 on: January 17, 2012, 05:55:00 PM »
If you look closely at that video, when he removes the pie from the pan and slides it back into the oven to crisp, the edge still looks rather pale. That would lead me to believe it is a "young", or freshly made dough. Probably just a short room temp proof. That dough doesn't appear to be anything out of the ordinary, wouldn't think it's anything more then lower 60's hydration percentage.
Rest In Peace - November 1, 2014

Offline sum1else

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 91
  • Location: NYC
Re: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie
« Reply #37 on: January 17, 2012, 05:56:38 PM »
Quote
Tyler, I'm not sure if this has been mentioned, but, next time, it has to be thinly slice mozz with good sauce coverage.

Yep, the first thing I noticed after stepping away from it is that I didn't use enough sauce, and the cheese was slightly too thick. Easy to fix next time. My crust was definitely not more chewy than L&B. In fact, I think it was very very close to the same chew. But recall that I didn't knead at all...

That photo you posted looks so good. But wow it's thick. The frozen slices in my freezer aren't nearly that thick, although they were half-baked so they may not have fully risen. I don't know when I'll be there again, but I'll have to bring a ruler!!


Offline dmcavanagh

  • In Memoriam
  • Posts: 1912
  • Location: Glenmont, NY
Re: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie
« Reply #38 on: January 17, 2012, 06:00:14 PM »
Whoops, I missed the whole second page of this post! :-[
Rest In Peace - November 1, 2014

Offline johnnydoubleu

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 222
  • Location: Flatbush
  • Thrill junkie. Baker. Cook. Coder. Aesthete.
    • johnwozniak.com
Re: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie
« Reply #39 on: January 17, 2012, 06:12:17 PM »
This is what I remember: http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2010/06/l-and-b-spumoni-gardens-best-sicilian-square-pizza-slice-brooklyn-nyc-review.html.

It is far dryer and looks like what I was describing earlier (thank goodness -- I know my memory isn't that bad ;)). A 60-65% hydration dough that used a fair amount of yeast and is not entirely unlike a conventional NYC Sicilian (but with denser crumb, inverted cheese and sauce, less pan proofing time and a simpler sauce). Scott your picture looks radically different (far taller and wetter). Interesting.

scott123

  • Guest
Re: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie
« Reply #40 on: January 17, 2012, 06:22:21 PM »
Yes, that is drier, although I think part of the dryness is a result of the re-heat, as indicated by the charring on the rim.

If someone could do some reconnaissance and determine the flour, that would go a very long way in determining hydration, but, based upon Tyler's results, I'm almost certain this is either All Trumps or an All Trumps equivalent (Kyrol, Balancer).  Based on that assumption, there's no way it could be less than 65%.

Offline johnnydoubleu

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 222
  • Location: Flatbush
  • Thrill junkie. Baker. Cook. Coder. Aesthete.
    • johnwozniak.com
Re: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie
« Reply #41 on: January 17, 2012, 06:28:23 PM »
Yes, that is drier, although I think part of the dryness is a result of the re-heat, as indicated by the charring on the rim.

If someone could do some reconnaissance and determine the flour, that would go a very long way in determining hydration, but, based upon Tyler's results, I'm almost certain this is either All Trumps or an All Trumps equivalent (Kyrol, Balancer).  Based on that assumption, there's no way it could be less than 65%.

Even without the reheat I don't remember it looking nearly as wet as in your pic. I have gotten plenty of fresh slices over the years. That said, the wetness is clearly variable based on a number of factors.

When I think of hydration I tend to think of it in regards to the slightly lower protein flours I favor. The flour that is likely being used can absorb a lot of water as you point out. What would you think a regular All Trumps NYC Sicilian is hydration wise? The same (65% or more)?


Offline johnnydoubleu

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 222
  • Location: Flatbush
  • Thrill junkie. Baker. Cook. Coder. Aesthete.
    • johnwozniak.com
Re: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie
« Reply #42 on: January 17, 2012, 06:34:13 PM »
If someone could do some reconnaissance and determine the flour, that would go a very long way in determining hydration, but, based upon Tyler's results, I'm almost certain this is either All Trumps or an All Trumps equivalent (Kyrol, Balancer).  Based on that assumption, there's no way it could be less than 65%.

If only more videos were HD maybe we could see the flour brand. I have a feeling they will be reluctant to just share it.

I will try to go soon and keep my eyes peeled for flour bags. If all else fails I may just ask but not with the expectation of getting the answer.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2012, 06:35:55 PM by johnnydoubleu »

Offline sum1else

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 91
  • Location: NYC
Re: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie
« Reply #43 on: January 17, 2012, 07:03:02 PM »
Too many posts on this thread is making me want to hop on the subway for a 1 hour trip each way. **Trying not to do it**

scott123

  • Guest
Re: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie
« Reply #44 on: January 17, 2012, 07:17:18 PM »
Johnny, I haven't paid much attention to regular Sicilian, as I'm not much of a fan- I don't like the way the cheese doesn't get a chance to melt much. In Brooklyn Sicilian, the cheese almost incorporates into the dough and you get a textural phenomenon.  I really can't say what hydrations typical pizzerias use for Sicilian. To be honest, I could be wrong about this, but I'm pretty certain that regular Sicilian dough = slice dough, just thicker.  There are probably places out there that go lower than 65% with All Trumps with their slice dough, but, having done it myself, it's difficult to work with and wouldn't go through the sheeter like the dough in the video does- nor would it stretch as easily.

Unless I  knew him well, I probably wouldn't ask a pizzeria employee what kind of flour they use. Some of these guys can get pretty protective. I would (and have) said things like, "I'm concerned about the health effects of bromate, do you use bromated flour?"

Offline dellavecchia

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2631
Re: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie
« Reply #45 on: January 17, 2012, 07:26:06 PM »
Johnny, I haven't paid much attention to regular Sicilian, as I'm not much of a fan- I don't like the way the cheese doesn't get a chance to melt much. In Brooklyn Sicilian, the cheese almost incorporates into the dough and you get a textural phenomenon.  I really can't say what hydrations typical pizzerias use for Sicilian. To be honest, I could be wrong about this, but I'm pretty certain that regular Sicilian dough = slice dough, just thicker.  There are probably places out there that go lower than 65% with All Trumps with their slice dough, but, having done it myself, it's difficult to work with and wouldn't go through the sheeter like the dough in the video does- nor would it stretch as easily.

Unless I  knew him well, I probably wouldn't ask a pizzeria employee what kind of flour they use. Some of these guys can get pretty protective. I would (and have) said things like, "I'm concerned about the health effects of bromate, do you use bromated flour?"

Scott - Thanks so much for contributing. I am going to go with 68% and see how Giusto's High Performer handles it. 13-14.5% spring wheat. Maybe I will forgo the pan rise as well. TF I am still undecided on.

John

Offline johnnydoubleu

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 222
  • Location: Flatbush
  • Thrill junkie. Baker. Cook. Coder. Aesthete.
    • johnwozniak.com
Re: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie
« Reply #46 on: January 17, 2012, 07:39:35 PM »
@Scott: So clearly you understand where I was coming from. My personal experience with some inside info into a handful of classic slice joints is that the round and square dough is usually the same and it is not "that" wet. It is also often bromated GM All Trumps. I was sort of assuming the L&B square to at least be a "cousin" to conventional Brooklyn Sicilian.
--

My quick stab at this is a 68% KA AP (what I had on hand) based low-knead dough with 2% each liquid sourdough starter, salt, honey and oil (sort of my "universal" dough for pizza) -- I just put it together. I am (going to) using a very dark non-stick 13 x 9 pan as that suits the needs of me and my better half (4 decent slices). Dough ball is 620 g. Hope to have pics in 2 days or so.

Offline dellavecchia

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2631
Re: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie
« Reply #47 on: January 17, 2012, 07:58:38 PM »
Call me crazy, but I think they are doubling up the dough. Take a look at these screen grabs from the Man vs Food clip. You can clearly see the dough line at the top and bottom of the screen in the first shot.

John

scott123

  • Guest
Re: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie
« Reply #48 on: January 17, 2012, 08:18:19 PM »
John, Tyler and I have talked about this.  I'm 99.9% certain they ferment the dough in half sheet pan quantities (2.5#?) and then, when they get an order for a full pan, they combine two balls.

The high performer might give you something a bit more authentic, but it sounds like, from you and your family's perspective, that the KA AP/high performer blend is going to be tough to beat.

Tyler, I'm not sure about this, but I believe, over time, that L&B, in an effort to save time, went from very thin slices of cheese with full coverage, to the thicker, spaced out slabs you see in the video. I think full coverage is preferable from a textural perspective. Here's a video from an L&B clone/very possible ex-L&B employee:



This is how I'd approach the cheese, going with a slice a tiny bit thicker than the video.

It's a more work, and because you're buying deli mozz, more costly, but I think the end result will be a bit better than the spaced out mozz you see in the L&B video.

scott123

  • Guest
Re: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie
« Reply #49 on: January 17, 2012, 08:23:53 PM »
Johnyy, KA AP is higher protein than most AP, but it's still pretty low for this application.  I'll be interested to hear how this works for you at 68% (if it's really wet, you might want to try a few mid ferment stretch and folds), but I think if you really want to do this style justice, I'd track down a 13.5-14% protein flour, preferably bromated, like AT or Sams Club's High Gluten or Gordon Food Services Primo Gusto.