Author Topic: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie  (Read 30018 times)

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Offline drummerchef

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Re: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie
« Reply #160 on: November 10, 2013, 11:21:24 AM »
I was looking over this old thread and saw a couple of mentions to Grandma's pie. Here is the deal on that as I learned it at a pizzaria in Manahawkin NJ, from a guy who was from Brooklyn and decided to open a place in south Jersey.

The Grandma'a pie that he did was from the same dough as his normal pie and his sicilian. The dough was just rolled out thin and put in a heavily oiled half sheet pan (just like a sicilian). the edges were then trimmed to fit the pan, sauced, cheesed then baked, that's all. Oh yeah, and plenty of Pesto!

Now, all that being said his dough was a little different:

First, he used AT, his hydration was around 60% by my estimation.
He would put some of the water into the bowl first, add about 3% SEMOLINA, sugar,IDY and LARD. Then mix on slow for about 5 minutes then add the flour: 50#. Then the salt and mixed on 2 speed till windowpane. This dough was fantastic and in all 3 manifestations (pie, sicilian and Grandma's) was awesome. I didn't get the exact percentiges because the guy making the dough didn't measure anything.

Hope this helps.


Offline crvgt

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Re: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie
« Reply #161 on: January 21, 2014, 04:58:47 PM »
Having lived the first 23 years of my life a few blocks from L&B, i've had more of their pizza than i can count.   Although i am not the type to painstakingly replicate a particular pie, i do try to make pizza in the general style of what i like, and L&B has always been the Sicilian that i emulate when making pizza at home.   Having enjoyed all the photos on this thread of all the wonderful pies, i thought i would share a few of my own.   

My dough is a small variation on Jim Lahey's no-knead dough.   Halfway through the 12-18 hour rise, i remove the dough from the container, and knead it a little.  I find this small step makes the dough more resiliant and resistant to tearing when I am spreading it into the pan.   And i use a lot of dough - about 50 ounces to the pan.   It produces a more airy/crusty texture than L&B's tight and moist crust, but i actually prefer the crusty version better.  For sauce, i use Pastene ground tomatoes, sometimes cooked with onions, or sometimes uncooked and pretty plain with only salt, olive oil and a little oregano.    I use fresh mozzarella nearly all the time, sometimes making it myself.   

While i am usually making Neapolitan or NY coal oven renditions at home, Sicilian pies in the L&B style is what i go back to when comfort food is what i need!

Ron

Offline dmaclaren

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Re: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie
« Reply #162 on: February 07, 2014, 11:09:59 AM »
My second attempt at this style of Pie. Gotta get up to L&B to try one, but I think I'm close. Does anyone have any recommendations for other establishments to check out while up there?  Thanks.

Is there an  update to this wil any detailed dough information?

Thanks

Offline Chaze215

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Re: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie
« Reply #163 on: March 05, 2014, 09:24:51 PM »
I was just at L&B  last night for the first time. Im looking for updates as well dm.  I'm going to give it a shot one of these days at TRYING to recreate it.
Chaz

Offline Chaze215

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Re: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie
« Reply #164 on: March 10, 2014, 07:32:29 PM »
So from reading through this thread, is the general consensus that the TF should be in the area of .14-.16 and oil at about 3%?
Chaz

Offline pythonic

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Re: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie
« Reply #165 on: April 03, 2014, 10:13:54 AM »
I would like to attempt a same day dough today.  How much IDY will I need for an 8 hr RT rise?

Nate
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Offline pythonic

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Re: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie
« Reply #166 on: April 03, 2014, 07:41:49 PM »
Never had L&B style so I have no idea what I have here but here you go.

AT bromated
65% hydration
3% oil
2.5% salt
1% sugar
.30% IDY

8hr RT rise, baked at 475 for 14 mins.  16x16x1 pan

Cheese:  Boars head Mozz and Locatelli pecorino
Sauce: Cento San Marzano

Can anyone tell me how the bottom is supposed to taste and look?  I brushed olive oil on pan but really am not sure.

Nate

« Last Edit: April 04, 2014, 07:31:40 AM by pythonic »
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Offline Bobino414

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Re: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie
« Reply #167 on: April 03, 2014, 08:04:22 PM »

Nate

You listed two different salt %, please clarify.

Bob

Offline norma427

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Re: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie
« Reply #168 on: April 03, 2014, 08:25:31 PM »
Never had LM style so I have no idea what I have here but here you go.
Can anyone tell me how the bottom is supposed to taste and look?  I brushed olive oil on pan but really am not sure.

Nate


Nate,

At Reply 249 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=17885.msg175828#msg175828 is where I posted photos of L&B Spumoni Gardens pizza and how the bottom crust looked.  I would say the slice I had was a little gummy and not as airy as yours is.  Maybe other members will chime in on what they thought.

Norma
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Offline Chaze215

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Re: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie
« Reply #169 on: April 03, 2014, 08:35:01 PM »
Exactly right in your description Norma...I was there again Tuesday night :-) It's almost like it is undercooked but I think it's the mozzarella that they place on the dough first that melts into each slice. Probably my favorite square.
Chaz


Offline pythonic

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Re: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie
« Reply #170 on: April 03, 2014, 08:52:48 PM »
Nate

You listed two different salt %, please clarify.

Bob

Fixed.  I thought the salt was too high for me though.  Next time I will do 1.75%.
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Offline pythonic

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Re: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie
« Reply #171 on: April 04, 2014, 08:00:03 PM »
For my 2nd attempt I made some changes.

Dropped hydration from 65% to 63%.
Dropped salt from 2.5% to 1.75%.
Upped sugar from 1% to 1.5%.
Doubled the cheese
Used 7/11 tomatoes instead
Used more oil in pan and switched from olive to soybean.
Baked on stone positioned on 2nd rack. 
Preheated to 450 and cooked with convection for 5 mins then upped to 500 for another 11 mins with convection off.

I thought this time around the flavor and texture were much better.  If I want to make the bottom crunchier should I raise stone temp or bake longer?  I thought the end crust was really good so I don't want to effect that.

This was still only an 8hr RT rise, my next will be a 48hr CR.

Nate
If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball.

Offline Chaze215

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Re: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie
« Reply #172 on: April 04, 2014, 08:03:51 PM »
Looks very good Nate! I was at L & B again on Tuesday. Its a great square.
Chaz

Offline pythonic

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Re: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie
« Reply #173 on: April 07, 2014, 08:11:27 PM »
Sold one of these pies today to a friend tonight.  Have only made three Sicilians in my life and have much more to learn.

Nate
If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball.

Offline Arctic Pizza

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Re: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie
« Reply #174 on: April 15, 2014, 08:24:28 PM »
I was just at L&B  last night for the first time. Im looking for updates as well dm.  I'm going to give it a shot one of these days at TRYING to recreate it.

My experience with L&B style squares.  They are not made with traditional pizza dough, so the whole hydration % doesn't apply here.  Also, L&B squares are different from other NY sicilian slices.  The pillowy dough is a result of not using traditional pizza style dough recipes, but using more of a white bread dough which consists of milk powder/milk, butter and more sugar than a traditional pizza dough.  If you try an L&B square slice, it's crumb is not elastic and airy like an artisan bread, nor is it like neapolitan or NY thin crust.   It is like a compacted soft pillowy white bread which crisps at the bottom and sides due to high sugar/milk content.  I'm not talking soft white bread, think more like country style white bread dough.  I do know that L&B uses a roller machine and probably uses 4-5 1lb balls flattened and then layered on top of each other, then pressed to fill the pan. 

I will look to emulate their recipe and will post pictures and recipe.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2014, 08:30:11 PM by Arctic Pizza »

Offline Chaze215

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Re: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie
« Reply #175 on: April 15, 2014, 08:31:07 PM »
My experience with L&B style squares.  They are not made with traditional pizza dough, so the whole hydration % doesn't apply here.  Also, L&B squares are different from other NY sicilian slices.  The pillowy dough is a result of not using traditional pizza style dough recipes, but using more of a white bread dough which consists of milk powder/milk, butter and more sugar than a traditional pizza dough.  If you try an L&B square slice, it's crumb is not elastic like an artisan bread, nor is it like neapolitan or NY thin crust.   It is like a compacted soft pillowy white bread which crisps at the bottom and sides due to high sugar/milk content.

I will look to emulate their recipe and will post pictures and recipe.
I hear what you're saying about the texture. But this is the first time in hearing about milk, milk powder, sugar and/or butter. What kind of flour do you plan on using? I'm looking forward to seeing your results and workflow.
Chaz

Offline Arctic Pizza

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Re: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie
« Reply #176 on: April 15, 2014, 08:44:28 PM »
I hear what you're saying about the texture. But this is the first time in hearing about milk, milk powder, sugar and/or butter. What kind of flour do you plan on using? I'm looking forward to seeing your results and workflow.

I plan on using AP King arthur, and another with bread flour.  Btw, i edited my post to further explain what I mean. 
Sauce, the tomato variety "San Marzano" doesn't mean much anymore as the variety has been so ruined lately and diluted by false product marketing and hybridization.   I found a source for organic San Marzano Redorta, which is a very large paste tomato, about 10-12 oz.  I prefer to use these as they are extremely sweet.  This is critical to the L&B square which has a very bright, fresh sweet taste.  Seeded, drained, cut and pureed with salt, pepper and oregano/basil.  I don't believe L&B cooks their tomatoes or if they do, maybe very quickly ie 10 minutes to retain the fresh tomato taste.



Offline Chaze215

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Re: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie
« Reply #177 on: April 15, 2014, 08:50:47 PM »
Cool, I'm looking forward to seeing the results. I'm not a San Marzano fan, so I used Sclafani crushed tomatoes which are very sweet as well.
Chaz

Offline Arctic Pizza

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Re: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie
« Reply #178 on: April 20, 2014, 10:14:18 PM »
Cool, I'm looking forward to seeing the results. I'm not a San Marzano fan, so I used Sclafani crushed tomatoes which are very sweet as well.

Went to L&B last night and took some notes this time.  I've eaten their squares for years, and never really contemplated over it.

We ordered a half which is 12 squares.  The dough on the L&B square is definitely not traditional NY pizza dough, thin or Neapolitan.   
What we decided to do was compare it to other types of bakery products, one person said it was like white bread, another said it was like a thick cake or donut. 

First observation is that this pizza is sweet.  At first I thought it was just the tomatoes, but I sampled the crust alone and it is definitely much sweeter than traditional pizza dough. 
It is saltier than traditional pizza dough which complements the sweetness and is probably cold fermented for 24 hours to 2days to produce a good yeasty white bread flavor. 
It is NOT cake.  It is cake-like in some ways,  it is almost like inside a thick but soft donut in texture with a crispy bottom layer.

I ate 4 squares.  I don't ever eat more than 2 normal sicilian squares at which I am doughed out.   L&B dough is light in the mouth.  I don't have to chew on it like pizza or sicilian.  It goes down fast and don't have the same doughy aftereffects.
I am convinced there is milk/dry milk powder in the product and some type of shortening/butter.

I decided to begin with the following:


1 cup water
2 tbsp dry milk powder
3 cups AP flour
1 tbsp shortening
1 tbsp salt
2 tbsp sugar
2 tsp active yeast
max temp on pizza stone 12 minutes.

Dough was cold fermented for 24 hours pressed down into greased pan.

The recipe I used is a good start and much better my past efforts when I've used traditional pizza dough recipe.  There is definitely milk/milk powder in their recipe imo.

Some problems:
One thing I noticed after I baked is it isn't sweet enough.  L&B is NOT sweet like a pastry, but is sweeter than typical pizza dough.   2tbsp I used seems alot, but this dough was nowhere as sweet as L&B. 
I will try 4tbsp (sounds like alot).  Also needs more salt so that goes up to 2tbsp.  It also needs more salt.

The texture is in the ballpark but it's not soft enough.  The outer crust should not come out as rigid as it did.   I will bump up the hydration and use milk as the base liquid.  1 cup milk and 1/4 cup water instead of water + milk powder I previously used. 

Sorry no pictures, I will post some in a final product I am happy with.  Work in progress.




« Last Edit: April 20, 2014, 10:20:38 PM by Arctic Pizza »

Offline Chaze215

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Re: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie
« Reply #179 on: April 20, 2014, 10:24:25 PM »
I agree with your observations, especially with the noted sweetness of the dough. Now that I think about it, I'm due for a trip to L & B! :-)
What size pan did you use and what was the temp & bake time? Did you roll out the dough to simulate the sheeter they use at L&B?
Chaz


 

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