00 flour vs high gluten for pizza?

[skan]

Hello

I like thin and crispy  Naoplitan (or Roman?) pizzas, but not that ones so "dry" and crispy that break when you press them.
I don't like pizzas that taste of bread.

I've being reading on how to prepare different pizza doughs and I'm a little bit confused.

Could you tell me your opinion on pizzas made with 00 Coputo flour and those ones made with high gluten flour+semolina?

I mean, What diferences do you notice between their texture or flavour?,
What's the difference in their preparation?. (more or less yeast, baking temperature and time, water...)

I've read that is good to have a very hydrated dough (60%) but how can you manage this really sticky dough?
Don't you autolyse the floor with water first? Like some baker's do with bread.

[DianeSF]

Your questions interest me as well.

This evening, I made for the first time, a pizza dough using 100% type Caputo flour (& water, yeast, salt)  This flour behaves very differently from any other dough I've handled.  I did a 2 minute slow knead, 5 minute medium knead, followed by another 2 minute slow knead.  The only word I can use to describe it is "flaccid".  No window pane.  I just gave it a stretch and fold, and will follow with two more. I'll refrigerate overnight and then see how it behaves tomorrow.

Diane

[Sartanely]

I have used KASL at defferent hydrations and methods for pizzas in home oven and I really do not likes the crust. It is dry and leathery. kA bread was better more crispy and the flavor was god. I bought a 55lb bag of 00 caputo pizza flour and this was much much better crust. I am using it even for bread dough and for others like all purpose flour. It is great for same day and could doughs. I usually bake them at 550 on electric stove on 1" stone at bottom shelf for 2-3 minutes and move it to the upper close to broiler on the rack without the stone for 1-2minites. I prefer the 00 over high gluten like KASL.

[Vactrat]

I have always used high gluten flour...

In the past year or so I have started to use 00 Caputo flour.  It is a noticeable difference. 

The dough is as smooth as silk.  It is especially helpful when your aging your dough!

[Giggliato]

Sometimes I wonder if it is more about the size of the mill rather than the level of the protein that is most important for our pizzas taste.

[skan]

Sometimes I wonder if it is more about the size of the mill rather than the level of the protein that is most important for our pizzas taste.

And what's the best size?

[Giggliato]

Some of the best flour I have ever tasted was of the 00 variety. Mostly I hear people saying that it is next to impossible to achieve a decent pizza with a 00 flour and a standard home oven. I suppose I will have to try for myself.

[toddster63]

Some of the best flour I have ever tasted was of the 00 variety. Mostly I hear people saying that it is next to impossible to achieve a decent pizza with a 00 flour and a standard home oven. I suppose I will have to try for myself.

This is my experience—I cook on a 800F stone, and the bottom of the Caputo crusts are great, browned with some slight charring. However the top of 00 crusts are pale and blond—I've torched them with a cook's blow torch, and it's better, but really I think in the end the bottom line is that 00 excels in hot, hot wood ovens... I've had some great wood oven Neo Pizzas with Caputo, all over the world, but have never been able to replicate them in a home oven (or my modified Deni)...

[Terry Scott Reed]

I recommend the recipe developed by Fred Bernardo--"The Smokin Guitar Player." It is half 00 Caputo and half High gluten bread flour. (Fred suggests Sir Lancelot, but I have also used plain old Pillsbury bread flour.) His recipe works great for me. I bake on a stone at 550 degs in a regular oven. Nine minutes works perfectly for me. I use a bit more sugar and a bit more salt than Fred. Find it at : www.fredsmusicandbbq.com, under recipes and cooking, pizza dough. I make it the day before or more and let it sit in the refrigerator.

By the way, after reading all the posts here about burning up KitchenAid mixers, I bought a Kojirushi bread machine--the kind with two beaters, not one. Works perfectly for the task, and will even proof the dough if I want to use it the same day!

[Tory]

I sort of got the impression that this caputo 00 flour is lower in protein (in the range of 8-9%) rather than a high protein flour (15-17%). Am I mistaken?

[norma427]

I sort of got the impression that this caputo 00 flour is lower in protein (in the range of 8-9%) rather than a high protein flour (15-17%). Am I mistaken?

Tory,

If you are interested in knowing what different protein amounts there are in some different flours, you might want to look at Peter’s post at Reply 70 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18075.msg184661.html#msg184661

Norma

[toddster63]

I sort of got the impression that this caputo 00 flour is lower in protein (in the range of 8-9%) rather than a high protein flour (15-17%). Am I mistaken?

As Norma said, Peter can tell you exact numbers, but I think Caputo 00 pizzeria is around 12%-12.5%. It isn't as low as some 00's from Italy, that do run around 9%—these are really pastry and cake oriented flours... It's kinda "false rumors" syndrome that Caputo 00 Pizzeria is low in protein. It's average, really, but maybe the low protein label comes from that compared to high gluten American pizza flours, Caputo would be a low protein flour, more like American all purpose flours, which are not popular in most American pizzerias (Americans prefer chewy and crispy-er pizza overall).

[Tory]

The interesting thing is, if you look at KAF's "Italian Flour", they claim it is a clone of Italy's 00 flour, and it has a protein level of 8.5%.
I think I've also seen other flours that claim to be 00 flour with the same protein level. That's why I thought this was the typical range for
00 flour.

Thank you for clarifying this.

Actually, now that I look at this, Forno Bravo's Caputo 00 is 11.5% protein. Hmmmm.
http://www.fornobravo.com/store/Caputo-Flour-5-Pack-p-16133.html

[toddster63]

The interesting thing is, if you look at KAF's "Italian Flour", they claim it is a clone of Italy's 00 flour, and it has a protein level of 8.5%.
I think I've also seen other flours that claim to be 00 flour with the same protein level. That's why I thought this was the typical range for
00 flour.

Thank you for clarifying this.

Actually, now that I look at this, Forno Bravo's Caputo 00 is 11.5% protein. Hmmmm.
http://www.fornobravo.com/store/Caputo-Flour-5-Pack-p-16133.html

Yeah, I've seen that too at KA and I think at Giustos as well... Misleading to say the least...

[Tory]

I know when I tried to use KAF's Italian flour, it was a disaster. The pizza I made with it was horrible. I didn't find the dough to be especially easy to work with, and after I cooked the pizza, the crust was like eating a ceramic tile. I was very disappointed. The only good side is that KAF gave me a refund for the flour.

Perhaps the failure was due to the low protein in this flour. Is the higher 11.5% protein 00 flour easier to work with?  I've tried making pizza using AP flour (which is about the same amount of protein) and I found it to not be very easy to work with either. It tears easily and doesn't seem very extensible.

[Chicago Bob]

(or my modified Deni)...

toddster63,
Would you by chance have a link to what you feel is your best dough for use in the Deni? (I have one too) Thanks!

Bob

[toddster63]

toddster63,
Would you by chance have a link to what you feel is your best dough for use in the Deni? (I have one too) Thanks!

Bob

I used the dough calculator here on at pizzamaking.com. I used both Lehman for commericai yeast, and the preferment for my starter based dough. Hydration was usually around 64%.

I usually used Caputo 00 Piszzeria flour, but in the Deni the Caputo pies will come out very pale on top, and you will need to either stick them under the broiler, or use a torch to brown them (which is what I did). Bread flour browns better, but still not ideal in the Deni; the modified Deni as you probably know, make a great HOT bottom stone, but just can't keep on on the top browning.

[Chicago Bob]

Teeeen-fo!  Thanks toddster, that'll work. Ole Villa Roma made some purdies with his moded Deni, you have any pics of your torched Deni's?    Thanks!

Bob,

[toddster63]

Hey, Bob, ask and you shall receive...!

My torch-art work on a Caputo pie cooked on the Deni. And an underskirt shot from the Deni too!

[toddster63]

As a point in contrast, here is how my pies came out of the Deni before I started torching them: