Author Topic: Newbie - Making Progress - But Still Need More Dough Flavor  (Read 6429 times)

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Offline Killmeyer000

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Newbie - Making Progress - But Still Need More Dough Flavor
« on: January 16, 2012, 12:30:05 PM »
Hi,

I am trying to make a delicious Silcilian Pizza like I remember as a kid in Northeast Ohio (Live in the South now)...or maybe better than what I remember as a kid ;)  Right now I am using a slightly altered version of Steel_Baker's Victory Pig Crust Recipe.  I am very happy with the texture, browning and crumb of the crust...I have some flavor in my crust...but, not enough.  My head is kind of spinning right now with all of the options that can be done to flavor dough.  I'm hoping that someone here can start me on the right path...or the best initial path to getting a more flavorful crust.  I am leaning toward trying a sourdough starter...but not sure if that is the best route to start with.  Keep in mind that I don't really care that much if I stay totally within the exact Sicilian style.  I'm more concerned about getting a very flavorful pie, versus staying totally within a style.  Maybe I'll mix two styles...or whatever works.  Here is a list of some things I've read about to make a more flavorful crust:  More salt, Add minced garlic, Add garlic powder, Use beer, Use garlic infused oil, Add some rye, Use more yeast, Use spring water, Use some semolina, Use dough flavoring/MSG (which I'd rather stay away from), Make a starter.

I also have this initial question...I notice that Steel_Baker uses room temperature water, with an overnight rise.  I altered my recipe to use 100 degree water, with an overnight rise.  I'm wondering if the room temp water is for a reason?  Is my warmer water causing the dough to rise too fast at the beginning...making a less flavorful crust?

For now, I am focusing primarily on the crust.  I am just using canned sauce...until I get a good crust.  Then, I will tackle making home made sauce.

Here is the recipe and technique that I am using...Thanks for any help:


Pizza – Sicilian Style (Adapted From Steel_Baker’s Victory Pig Recipe)

    Pizza Dough Ingredients (12x17 blue steel, high-side pan)
Flour      100.0%   409 grams   (bread flour)
Water   67.0%   274 grams   (bottled water warmed to 90-110 degrees)
Salt      2.0%      8 grams
Sugar      4.4%      18 grams (or 1 Tablespoon cane sugar)
IDY      2.0%      8 grams (one packet Instant Dry Yeast)
Olive oil   1.0%      4 grams

      Other ingredients
Olive Oil – Enough to brush a layer on bottom and sides of pan, and drizzle top of dough
Mozzarella – 10 Slices from deli
24 slices of pepperoni
Corn Meal
Sea Salt

   Sauce
Contadina Canned Pizza Sauce or 7 to 8 oz. tangy home made sauce.

* Combine the following ingredients in a bowl or mixer in the following order:
* Water, sugar, olive oil, bread flour, salt and yeast.
* Mix until all ingredients form into a single dough ball. Let rest for 15 minutes, and then knead thoroughly for 6 minutes in mixer.
* Place the dough into a rectangular polycarbonate container that has been sprayed with cooking spray, sealed with the lid and placed in the refrigerator overnight.
* Three hours prior to baking, brush bottoms and sides of pans with olive oil.  Sprinkle bottoms of pans with corn meal and sea salt. Place the dough in the pan.
* Using the tips of your fingers stretch the dough to cover about 2/3 of the pan. Cover the pan with plastic wrap or lids to keep the moisture in and prevent the dough from “skinning.
* After 1-2 hours, remove the plastic wrap and knock the dough down and stretch to fill the pan.
* Pull dough up along the sides of the pan and into the corners. Re-cover and give dough enough rise time to fill the pan. 1 hour should be enough.
* Preheat the oven to 450° F.
* Uncover dough and drizzle the top of the dough with olive oil.  Be sure not to knock the dough down while topping it.
* Spread dough with about ˝ can of Contadina sauce or home made sauce.
* Place the 10 slices of mozzarella.
* Sprinkle sea salt and dried basil on top of cheese
* Place the pepperoni

* Bake on the middle rack for 15 minutes until the cheese appears to just start to brown. At this point, the crust should be crispy and browned.



Offline Killmeyer000

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Re: Newbie - Making Progress - But Still Need More Dough Flavor
« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2012, 12:04:23 PM »
I also have this initial question...I notice that Steel_Baker uses room temperature water, with an overnight rise.  I altered my recipe to use 100 degree water, with an overnight rise.  I'm wondering if the room temp water is for a reason?  Is my warmer water causing the dough to rise too fast at the beginning...making a less flavorful crust?

Reading more over the last couple of days, I believe I have found an answer to this part of my question.  I have noticed that for a cold rise most experts are using water that is anywhere from ice water to room temp...to keep the yeast at a slow steady start, and continue with a slow rise.

Also seems that most experts agree that the best crust should be made using basic ingredients, without adjuncts (additives like garlic powder, etc).

The pizza I made was very good.  My family gobbled it up...and are asking me when I'm making it again.  I just like to keep improving.

I think the next trial will be to use refridgerated water next time...and then go for a 3-day slow rise.  Probably try this next week.  At some point I may try a starter...but not at this time.

Hopefully, I will be able to post some pics after trying this next week.


Online Pete-zza

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Re: Newbie - Making Progress - But Still Need More Dough Flavor
« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2012, 03:09:02 PM »
John,

You are correct that there are many additives that you can use to achieve particular crust flavors. But, once you rule those out, the list of crust flavor enhancements is quite limited. You can use a different flour with a more wheaty flavor, or you can use a long fermentation, either at room temperature or in the refrigerator, or you can use a preferment or starter, or you can use more yeast, salt or oil. If you read what Tom Lehmann wrote about bland tasting crusts at the AIB website at https://www.aibonline.org/researchandtechnical/faqs/pizza.html, you will see that he emphasizes salt and oil. That advice is most likely directed to basic pizza operators who cannot always use the best methods in their businesses for getting more and better flavors out of their crusts in a natural way. Of course, some simple but often effective ways of getting more flavor is to use sweeteners other than table sugar (if used), like honey or liquid barley malt. Or adding a bit of another flour, such as whole wheat flour, semolina or rye flour.

The water temperature is important, as well as the amount of yeast, because they both control the fermentation process and govern when the dough can be used. Normally, Tom recommends a water temperature that will achieve a finished dough temperature of around 80-85 degrees F. That is for a commercial setting. For a home setting, where a standard home refrigerator is likely to run several degrees warmer than a commercial cooler, a better finished dough temperature to use to compensate for those difference is about 75-80 degrees F. If you want to read more about finished dough temperature, you might look at Tom's article at http://www.pmq.com/mag/2003spring/tom_lehmann.shtml. Keep in mind, however, that that article is directed to a commercial setting where there are few variables. In a home setting, there are far, far more. This is an aspect that was discussed this past summer at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14376.msg143632.html#msg143632.

If you want to convert the recipe you used to a cold fermentation application, you will want to dramatically cut back on the amount of yeast and use cooler water, as you already noted. I think your salt and sugar are already at high levels so I don't think that I would increase their values.

If you have any further questions, let me know.

Peter

EDIT (1/25/13): Since the link to the above Lehmann article is no longer operative, see the Wayback Machine link to the same article at http://web.archive.org/web/20070502014430/http://www.pmq.com/mag/2003spring/tom_lehmann.shtml
« Last Edit: January 25, 2013, 06:04:16 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Killmeyer000

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Re: Newbie - Making Progress - But Still Need More Dough Flavor
« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2012, 04:19:12 PM »
Want to try one thing at a time so I can see what difference each one makes. 

Will try the cooler water and 3 day rise first.  As a guess...In Texas, room temp water might get me close to finished dough about 75-80 degrees?  From what I've read, for long cold rise, I should cut my yeast down to about 40% of the original recipe...so original was 8 grams, and the 3-day cold rise would be just over 3 grams or so.  Does that sound right?  For cold 3-day rise, do I need to punch the dough down each day, or anything...or just place in fridge and forget about it until I take it out to proof for a few hours at room temp in the pan before cooking?

I hadn't considered using a different sweetener.  I'm using pure cane sugar now.  Do you feel that honey or barley malt would have a better flavor...or add more flavor to the finished crust?  Do more people tend to use one or the other?

I think adding a little semolina or rye flour might be on my short list of things to try...after trying the cold rise and maybe a different sweetener.  What percent of total flour would be a good starting point for adding either of these flours?

I believe I will also try using spring water, as opposed to the reverse osmosis water that we usually have around the house.  I have heard that this can have some impact on flavor.

Well, this should keep me busy for a while.

Thanks for the answers...and the helpful links.

John

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Re: Newbie - Making Progress - But Still Need More Dough Flavor
« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2012, 04:41:50 PM »
John,

This time of year in Texas, I think I would go with about 0.40% IDY. That is a bit less than a half-teaspoon. There should be no need to punch the dough down or do anything else to it until you are ready to use it. However, since there are always variables from one home setting to another, you should monitor the development of the dough, especially the fermentation bubbles. If you use a transparent or translucent container, you should be able to get a good view of the fermentation bubbles as they develop at the sides and bottom of the container. If you do not get a profusion of these bubbles and you need to use the dough, then you can give it a good amount of bench temper time at room temperature.

I think that honey and liquid barley malt (nondiastatic) are good choices as alternatives to ordinary table sugar. They both contain simple sugars that are readily available to the yeast as food (yeast can only ferment simple sugars). For now, I would hold back on using such sweeteners. You do not want to change too many variables at one time.

A good starting point for semolina is about 15% of the total formula flour. You should be able to go to 25%. I have heard as high as 50%, but that seems too high to me. You may not want to use more than about 5% rye flour. But that will depend on what kind of textural and taste results you are after. I would rather add a bit of whole wheat flour. You can see a good example of this in a focaccia setting in the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,16883.msg164507.html#msg164507. Of course, the more changes you make to the original recipe, the more you lose the intent and purpose and character of the recipe.

Peter

Offline Killmeyer000

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Re: Newbie - Making Progress - But Still Need More Dough Flavor
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2012, 11:25:49 AM »
OK...Great!  Thanks again for the help.  Planning to try spring water and cold 3-day rise in about a week.  Should have my new oven/range by then, which will also get me higher temps.  Old range said 500 degrees, but really only gets about 450 degrees...Whirlpool calls that "Accu-Temp Technology"...or at least that what the range said on the front ;D.  Will post back any differences noticed...and maybe some pics.

Offline Killmeyer000

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Re: Newbie - Making Progress - But Still Need More Dough Flavor
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2012, 08:28:29 PM »
OK...Here is tonight's pizza...with a 3-day cold rise...New oven that goes to 550 degrees (for about 8 minutes)...Less IDY .40%...used spring water.  The pizza came out very well.  The crust was crunchy on the bottom, with a kind of light italian bread interior...and good flavor.  The pictures are of the dough after 3-day cold rise...The dough pressed into the pan...The pre-baked pizza...The baked pizza...The crumb (kind of hard to see with the cheese)...and the bottom of a partially eaten slice :)  The bottom was interesting...kind of like the bread of a grilled cheese sandwich...and was good that way.  I think if I didn't want it that way, I maybe could use peanut oil on the pan, instead of olive oil...and cut back the sugar in the dough...not sure.  I have been experimenting making pizzas for a month or so now.  Each time I try, we end up throwing out part of a pizza because it doesn't taste that great.  Tonight, my youngest boy asked me if we were going to throw out the rest of the pizza.  I said, "No, why".  He said because it was good and he wanted the rest. 

You may notice that I made two pies.  The top pic of the baked pie was cooked too long.  Still tasted good...but black on the bottom in places, and some burned cheese.  Trying to get used to my new range.  The second pie came out better at 550 degrees for 8 minutes...it's the one that got half eaten very fast, before I could take a picture of the whole pie.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2012, 01:17:37 AM by Killmeyer000 »

Offline Killmeyer000

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Re: Newbie - Making Progress - But Still Need More Dough Flavor
« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2012, 08:30:00 PM »
More pics

Offline norma427

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Re: Newbie - Making Progress - But Still Need More Dough Flavor
« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2012, 08:48:15 AM »
Killmeyer000,

Very nice job on your pan pie!  :) Good to hear that you youngest son said it was good and he wanted the rest of the pie.

I recently started using peanut oil or corn oil in pan pies.  I like the way those oils brown.  Good luck finding the right oven temperature to bake your pan pies.

Norma
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Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Newbie - Making Progress - But Still Need More Dough Flavor
« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2012, 03:32:53 PM »
Very nice Sicilian pizza. You got a really nice crumb as well. You may want to try cutting back the sugar to 1% and up the oil to 3 or 4% and see what the differences are in the bake and texture. It will also help with burning.

John


Offline Killmeyer000

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Re: Newbie - Making Progress - But Still Need More Dough Flavor
« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2012, 03:41:15 PM »
Thanks Norma and Dell.

I am planning to make a few pizzas this weekend for my family and wife's parents.  I think I'm going to stick with the same recipe for this weekend...and see what my wife's parents think.  My family and myself really liked it last time.  I think the reason I burned the first pie last time was because I have a brand new range, and I'm not familiar with how it cooks...and possibly because I prefer to use EVOO instead of peanut oil.  I've tried the peanut oil on a lower oven rack, and it was good too...More crispy throughout.  But that was not what I remember as a kid...nor what I was aiming for.  I was wanting to get a more bread-like interior, with a crispy exterior...and I think I've found that with the current recipe.  The only thing that kind of threw me was the way the bottom of the pizza looked.  I have never seen one look like that...almost like French Toast.  However, it was really good...so, I'm not gonna sweat it for now.  I'm pretty curious, so will probably try some tweaking once my busy season at work is over.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2012, 09:08:12 PM by Killmeyer000 »

Offline Mmmph

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Re: Newbie - Making Progress - But Still Need More Dough Flavor
« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2012, 05:00:34 PM »
The look on the bottom of your pizza comes, partially, from the long pan rise. The longer you leave it in the pan, the more opportunity for bubbles to form under the dough, consequently the "holey" bottom. I like it that way, too. Crispy and flavorful.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2012, 05:03:13 PM by Mmmph »
Sono venuto, ho visto, ho mangiato

Offline Killmeyer000

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Re: Newbie - Making Progress - But Still Need More Dough Flavor
« Reply #12 on: February 01, 2012, 05:11:30 PM »
The look on the bottom of your pizza comes, partially, from the long pan rise. The longer you leave it in the pan, the more opportunity for bubbles to form under the dough, consequently the "holey" bottom. I like it that way, too. Crispy and flavorful.

Ahhhh!  Good to know.  Thanks!  :pizza:

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Newbie - Making Progress - But Still Need More Dough Flavor
« Reply #13 on: February 01, 2012, 08:15:34 PM »
John,

Tom Lehmann discusses the "cratering" phenomenon over at the PMQ Think Tank at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7358&p=49641&hilit=#p49630.

Peter

Offline Killmeyer000

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Re: Newbie - Making Progress - But Still Need More Dough Flavor
« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2012, 09:07:01 PM »
John,

Tom Lehmann discusses the "cratering" phenomenon over at the PMQ Think Tank at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7358&p=49641&hilit=#p49630.

Peter

OK...so Lehman says it's a "desirable trait".  Excellent!  I'm moving in the right direction.  Thanks Peter.


John

Offline Killmeyer000

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Re: Newbie - Making Progress - But Still Need More Dough Flavor
« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2012, 12:00:39 PM »
Made a few pizzas for Super Bowl.  All came out great!  My oldest boy's girlfriend is a very picky eater...and believe it or not, she usually puts syrup on pizza  :-X  She said the pizza was so good that she didn't even need to put syrup on it.  She kept saying that it reminded her of some pizza place that she used to love...but I don't remember the name of it. 

Offline Killmeyer000

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Re: Newbie - Making Progress - But Still Need More Dough Flavor
« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2012, 12:01:13 PM »
Bottom of Pizza

Offline Killmeyer000

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Re: Newbie - Making Progress - But Still Need More Dough Flavor
« Reply #17 on: February 06, 2012, 12:01:43 PM »
Crumb

Offline steel_baker

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Re: Newbie - Making Progress - But Still Need More Dough Flavor
« Reply #18 on: February 09, 2012, 05:41:52 PM »
Glad my crust recipe worked well as a base for you. :chef:

I agree with Pete regarding additives for flavor. Oil, salt, honey instead of sugar. They make the difference.

I used honey the last two times i made pizza and the crust was the best ever.

s_b
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Offline Killmeyer000

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Re: Newbie - Making Progress - But Still Need More Dough Flavor
« Reply #19 on: February 10, 2012, 10:46:51 AM »
Glad my crust recipe worked well as a base for you. :chef:

I agree with Pete regarding additives for flavor. Oil, salt, honey instead of sugar. They make the difference.

I used honey the last two times i made pizza and the crust was the best ever.

s_b

Yes sir.  Thanks again. 

Next step is to come up with a flavorful, sauce (not from a can)...I'd like it to be a little tangy, instead of sweet.  If anyone knows of a post somewhere in this forum that I can find a sauce like this, please let me know. 

Where I'm originally from, In Ohio, there are several Sicilian style pizza places.  But, many of them don't quite follow the style.  Using, more sauce or more cheese than the style usually has.  I think I'd like to end up with a little heavier sauce...and a little heavier cheese than the style usually has.  Didn't care for the white chedder much...would like to try a mozzarella/provolone mix...and maybe one with real buffalo mozzarella.

probably going to try the peanut oil again at some point...but, just a thin layer brushed on the pans.  With the olive oil that i'm currently using, and the oven on 550, i have to put the pie pretty high up, so that it won't get burned on the bottom.

Been pretty busy with work.  When I get a chance, will post up the latest version of the crust recipe/technique...so, the changes can be easily seen without going through all of the posts.

I'll try the honey at some point soon. 

The cool thing to me is that once you have a decent crust, you can do these little experiments, and it's not likely to make things worse...they are likely to be better, or just as good, but different.


John


 

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