Author Topic: Newbie - Making Progress - But Still Need More Dough Flavor  (Read 7285 times)

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Offline steel_baker

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Re: Newbie - Making Progress - But Still Need More Dough Flavor
« Reply #25 on: February 14, 2012, 02:07:23 PM »
I used 10g of Molasses instead of 8g of sugar or honey in the tray of VP style pizza that I made Sunday and it was very, very good. Definitely added some color to the crust. It also seemed to bottom brown a bit more and the crust was overall probably the best I've made thus far. Very crispy outside & soft with great structure & flavor inside. :chef:
steel_baker  :chef:


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Newbie - Making Progress - But Still Need More Dough Flavor
« Reply #26 on: February 14, 2012, 02:23:58 PM »
John,

Following up on steel_baker's recommendation, depending on the type and brand, molasses contains about 20-22% water. Again, at low levels of usage, there is usually no need to adjust the formula hydration to reflect its water content. If you choose to go with molasses and you are really after flavor rather than sweetness, you will want to go with a second boil product, like the Grandma's Robust or the Brer Rabbit Full Flavor molasses. They are among the darkest forms of molasses so they will also impart a dark color to the dough and finished crust. The only molasses that has more flavor and a darker color is blackstrap molasses. However, blackstrap molasses has the least sugar.

Peter

Offline Killmeyer000

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Re: Newbie - Making Progress - But Still Need More Dough Flavor
« Reply #27 on: February 14, 2012, 05:29:43 PM »
OK...Awesome!  Thanks Peter and Steel_Baker.  Very helpful info.  Will probably try a different type of sugar/honey/molasses next time, and will post the results.

FYI...I had been using natural cane sugar, which has a tannish-brown color.  And, I had been using about double what Steel_Baker uses.  This was giving a slight sweet flavor...and pretty nice browning on the bottom...but, not on top, since it's kind of difficult to get browning on the top of the crust when using the 2 1/2 inch deep Sicilian pans.  I believe the cane sugar browning was coming more from the bake itself (the sugar's reaction to heat), rather than from it's original color. 
« Last Edit: February 14, 2012, 05:40:31 PM by Killmeyer000 »

Offline Killmeyer000

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Re: Newbie - Making Progress - But Still Need More Dough Flavor
« Reply #28 on: February 22, 2012, 11:53:33 PM »
OK...So, I made a double batch of dough tonight for Saturday (two pizzas).  Used Grandma's molasses.  Not sure I did the math correctly.  Below is the recipe that I've had good results with.  It's pretty high in sugar.  I like it that way.  I replaced the cane sugar with the same weight of molasses.  Here is the math I used...assuming the molasses is 20% water.  double batch...so 36 grams molasses X 20% = 7 grams.  Then subtracted 7 grams of water from the total of the double batch...so water was 541 grams.  That's the only adjustment I made.  Is that right?  Seems like it might be wrong, since my end dough ball for double batch would be 7 grams short of the total?


Pizza – Sicilian Style B

    Pizza Dough Ingredients (12x17 blue steel, high-side pan)
Flour      100.0%   409 grams   (King Arthur bread flour)          X 2 = 818
Water   67.0%   274 grams   (refrigerated spring water)       X 2 = 548
Salt      2.0%      8 grams                                                X 2 = 16
Sugar      4.4%      18 grams (or 1 Tablespoon cane sugar)      X 2 = 36
IDY      0.50%   2 grams                                                X 2 = 4
Olive oil   1.0%      4 grams                                                X 2 = 8

TOTAL                       715                                                      X 2 = 1430

Offline Killmeyer000

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Re: Newbie - Making Progress - But Still Need More Dough Flavor
« Reply #29 on: February 23, 2012, 12:04:23 AM »
This is the molasses I used...since it was in the cupboard already.  Not sure if it is any good.

Offline JimmyJazz

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Re: Newbie - Making Progress - But Still Need More Dough Flavor
« Reply #30 on: February 23, 2012, 12:18:20 AM »
With a name like Grandma's.. Its gotta be good  ;)

Offline norma427

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Re: Newbie - Making Progress - But Still Need More Dough Flavor
« Reply #31 on: February 23, 2012, 08:48:15 AM »
Killmeyer000 ,

Will be anxious to see how your two pizzas turn out with the addition of Grandma’s Original Molasses.  In the formulations with Grandma's molasses I have tried so far, I like the addition of Grandma's.

Norma
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Offline Don K

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Re: Newbie - Making Progress - But Still Need More Dough Flavor
« Reply #32 on: February 23, 2012, 09:08:24 AM »
If you have access to it, try some malted barley syrup. Beermaking supply stores carry it, it's the ingredient used by "real" bagel makers to flavor the dough.
You can get barley malt syrup a lot of places now. I get it at the local grocery store in the Organic Foods section, and recently I saw that they also had it near the sugar and sugar substitutes aisle. I have also seen it at Trader Joe's and Whole Foods.

I've never tried it in dough (yet), but I use it for baked beans and barbecue sauce.
The member formerly known as Colonel_Klink

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Newbie - Making Progress - But Still Need More Dough Flavor
« Reply #33 on: February 23, 2012, 09:58:27 AM »
OK...So, I made a double batch of dough tonight for Saturday (two pizzas).  Used Grandma's molasses.  Not sure I did the math correctly.  Below is the recipe that I've had good results with.  It's pretty high in sugar.  I like it that way.  I replaced the cane sugar with the same weight of molasses.  Here is the math I used...assuming the molasses is 20% water.  double batch...so 36 grams molasses X 20% = 7 grams.  Then subtracted 7 grams of water from the total of the double batch...so water was 541 grams.  That's the only adjustment I made.  Is that right?  Seems like it might be wrong, since my end dough ball for double batch would be 7 grams short of the total?


Pizza – Sicilian Style B

    Pizza Dough Ingredients (12x17 blue steel, high-side pan)
Flour      100.0%   409 grams   (King Arthur bread flour)          X 2 = 818
Water   67.0%   274 grams   (refrigerated spring water)       X 2 = 548
Salt      2.0%      8 grams                                                X 2 = 16
Sugar      4.4%      18 grams (or 1 Tablespoon cane sugar)      X 2 = 36
IDY      0.50%   2 grams                                                X 2 = 4
Olive oil   1.0%      4 grams                                                X 2 = 8

TOTAL                       715                                                      X 2 = 1430


John,

For as far as you went, you did everything right in terms of adjusting the formula hydration to reflect the water content of the Grandma's Original Molasses except that you should have used 21% rather than 20%. But, since you used 20%, I will stick with that number. I also used 7.2 grams instead of the rounded 7 grams that you mentioned (20% x 36 = 7.2). Using the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html, this is what your modified dough formulation looks like:

Flour (100%):
Water (66.1125%):
IDY (0.489%):
Salt (1.95599%):
Olive Oil (0.978%):
Molasses (4.401%):
Total (173.93649%):
Single Ball:
818 g  |  28.85 oz | 1.8 lbs
540.8 g  |  19.08 oz | 1.19 lbs
4 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.33 tsp | 0.44 tbsp
16 g | 0.56 oz | 0.04 lbs | 2.87 tsp | 0.96 tbsp
8 g | 0.28 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.78 tsp | 0.59 tbsp
36 g | 1.27 oz | 0.08 lbs | 5.2 tsp | 1.73 tbsp
1422.8 g | 50.19 oz | 3.14 lbs | TF = N/A
711.4 g | 25.09 oz | 1.57 lbs
Note: No bowl residue compensation

In order to get the 7.2 grams back, you have to increase the amounts of all of the ingredients proportionately, in your case by 7.2/1422.8. The easiest way to do this is to simply enter a dough weight of 715 grams into the expanded dough calculating tool and specify two dough balls. Doing that will give you this:

Flour (100%):
Water (66.1125%):
IDY (0.489%):
Salt (1.95599%):
Olive Oil (0.978%):
Molasses (4.401%):
Total (173.93649%):
Single Ball:
822.14 g  |  29 oz | 1.81 lbs
543.54 g  |  19.17 oz | 1.2 lbs
4.02 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.33 tsp | 0.44 tbsp
16.08 g | 0.57 oz | 0.04 lbs | 2.88 tsp | 0.96 tbsp
8.04 g | 0.28 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.79 tsp | 0.6 tbsp
36.18 g | 1.28 oz | 0.08 lbs | 5.22 tsp | 1.74 tbsp
1430 g | 50.44 oz | 3.15 lbs | TF = N/A
715 g | 25.22 oz | 1.58 lbs
Note: No bowl residue compensation

In your case, losing 7.2 grams of dough will not be noticeable. In fact, you are likely to lose more than that just because of dough losses during preparation of the dough. As a result, I doubt that your finished dough weighed 711.4 x 2 = 1422.8 grams.

The Grandma's Original Molasses is a very good molasses. However, it will not be equivalent to the table sugar in terms of sweetness because molasses is less sweet than table sugar. I did a sucrose equivalency calculation and, if my numbers are right, I would say that from a sweetness standpoint the Grandma's molasses will be equivalent to about 1.72% table sugar. If that is correct, and unless you have a palate that is very sensitive to sweetness, you may not detect the sweetness of the Grandma's molasses at all. For most people, you need about 4-5% sugar to detect it in a finished crust. Many of us have done a lot of work with molasses in doughs over at the Mellow Mushroom thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.0.html and we found that you need around 11-12% Grandma's Original Molasses to be able to noticeably detect sweetness in the finished crust. What you will get with the Grandma's molasses is more flavor and more color to the dough and finished crust and crumb.

I look forward to your results.

Peter
« Last Edit: February 23, 2012, 01:27:58 PM by Pete-zza »


Offline Killmeyer000

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Re: Newbie - Making Progress - But Still Need More Dough Flavor
« Reply #34 on: February 23, 2012, 11:10:12 AM »

In order to get the 14 grams back (7 grams per dough ball), you have to increase the amounts of all of the ingredients proportionately, in your case by 7/708. The easiest way to do this is to simply enter a dough weight of 715 grams into the expanded dough calculating tool and specify two dough balls. Doing that will give you this:

Flour (100%):
Water (65.2812%):
IDY (0.489%):
Salt (1.956%):
Olive Oil (0.978%):
Molasses (4.401%):
Total (173.1052%):
Single Ball:
826.09 g  |  29.14 oz | 1.82 lbs
539.28 g  |  19.02 oz | 1.19 lbs
4.04 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.34 tsp | 0.45 tbsp
16.16 g | 0.57 oz | 0.04 lbs | 2.9 tsp | 0.97 tbsp
8.08 g | 0.28 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.8 tsp | 0.6 tbsp
36.36 g | 1.28 oz | 0.08 lbs | 5.25 tsp | 1.75 tbsp
1430 g | 50.44 oz | 3.15 lbs | TF = N/A
715 g | 25.22 oz | 1.58 lbs
Note: No bowl residue compensation

In your case, losing 7 grams of dough will not be noticeable. In fact, you are likely to lose more than that just because of dough losses during preparation of the dough. As a result, I doubt that your finished dough weighed 708 x 2 = 1416 grams.

The Grandma's Original Molasses is a very good molasses. However, it will not be equivalent to the table sugar in terms of sweetness because molasses is less sweet than table sugar. I did a sucrose equivalency calculation and, if my numbers are right, I would say that from a sweetness standpoint the Grandma's molasses will be equivalent to about 1.72% table sugar. If that is correct, and unless you have a palate that is very sensitive to sweetness, you may not detect the sweetness of the Grandma's molasses at all. For most people, you need about 4-5% sugar to detect it in a finished crust. Many of us have done a lot of work with molasses in doughs over at the Mellow Mushroom thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.0.html and we found that you need around 11-12% Grandma's Original Molasses to be able to noticeably detect sweetness in the finished crust. What you will get with the Grandma's molasses is more flavor and more color to the dough and finished crust and crumb.

I look forward to your results.

Peter

I'm a little confused?  I think what you did was correct, since the dough ball total was correct.  Not sure...though, since I think the loss per dough ball was 3.5 grams...or 7 total for 2 doughs.  At least that's how I measured it...or, maybe I measured it incorrectly?  I wonder if the 3.5 grams loss per dough ball will even be noticable?

OK...Wow...didn't realize there was that much difference in sweetness between sugar and molasses.  I would say that even at 4.4% cane sugar (1 TBSP per dough ball...what I used when I originally adapted the recipe from Steel Baker's Victory Pig), I didn't notice sweetness in the finished crust.  What I did notice was better browning on the bottom...and better crispness on the bottom and sides, without having to use so much oil in the pan.

Next time, I'll try to use the dough calculator.

Will let y'all know the results...and probably post pics.

Thanks,

John

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Newbie - Making Progress - But Still Need More Dough Flavor
« Reply #35 on: February 23, 2012, 01:30:57 PM »
John,

I got a bit confused on your numbers. I modified my earlier post (Reply 33) and I believe I have corrected the error. You will note that I used 7.2 grams instead of the rounded 7 grams you mentioned.

Peter

Offline Killmeyer000

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Re: Newbie - Making Progress - But Still Need More Dough Flavor
« Reply #36 on: February 23, 2012, 01:52:08 PM »
Peter,

Very good!  Thanks for your help!

John

Offline Killmeyer000

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Re: Newbie - Making Progress - But Still Need More Dough Flavor
« Reply #37 on: February 25, 2012, 08:36:42 PM »
Results from first attempt at using Molasses...Here are the judges' (Me and my family) feelings on today's pizza:

Right away, after Kneading in the mixer, I noticed that the molasses dough was more sticky...and more difficult to work with.  I assumed that this was because the molasses was like syrup in the dough.  after the 3-day cold rise, I noticed that the dough had not risen as high as it did with cane sugar.  Perhaps this is because I used equal weights of cane sugar or molasses...but since molasses is less sweet (I assume has less sugar per weight?), the yeast did not have as much food to eat.  As peter mentioned, I should have used much more molasses by weight, to equal the same sweetness as cane sugar.  Again, working the dough into the pans was more difficult with molasses...The dough was stickier, and had more spring-back.  The bubbles in the molasses dough were smaller.  The molasses dough had better browning.  The outside of the molasses crust was nice and brown and crispy, at first.  However, leaving the pizza sit just a couple of minutes on a wooden cutting board with paper towels on it, the crust turned soggy pretty quickly.  We didn't notice this with the cane sugar so much.  Also, the interior of the molasses crust was more doughy.  The cane sugar crust had better texture...with a crispy exterior, and a bread-like...maybe even, texture of cotton candy-like, interior that wasn't doughy...and stayed like that after sitting out for a while.  The crumb of the molasses crust, much like it's dough, had smaller bubbles than the cane sugar.  Again, this may be due to the less sweetness (and I assume less sugar) of the equal weight of the molasses compared to cane sugar.  We didn't notice much difference in the flavor of the molasses crust compared to the cane sugar crust.

The over-all winner is cane sugar.  And, it's because of these reasons that we are going to have to chop you, molasses.  I'm sorry  :chef:  Here are some pics of today's Sicilian molasses pizza.     

Offline Killmeyer000

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Re: Newbie - Making Progress - But Still Need More Dough Flavor
« Reply #38 on: February 25, 2012, 08:39:18 PM »
Molasses Pizza

Offline Killmeyer000

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Re: Newbie - Making Progress - But Still Need More Dough Flavor
« Reply #39 on: February 25, 2012, 08:39:58 PM »
Bottom Of Molasses Pizza

Offline Killmeyer000

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Re: Newbie - Making Progress - But Still Need More Dough Flavor
« Reply #40 on: February 25, 2012, 08:40:22 PM »
Bottom of Molasses Slice

Offline Killmeyer000

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Re: Newbie - Making Progress - But Still Need More Dough Flavor
« Reply #41 on: February 25, 2012, 08:40:48 PM »
Crumb...A little hard to see


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Newbie - Making Progress - But Still Need More Dough Flavor
« Reply #42 on: February 25, 2012, 09:11:48 PM »
John,

The molasses was only doing what it was supposed to do. Liquid sweeteners like molasses are more hygroscopic than table sugar and acts like a humectant to retain water in the dough. That also carries over to the finished crust and crumb, and is what keeps the finished baked good moist and with a longer shelf life. Also, molasses contains fructose, glucose and sucrose (which breaks down into more fructose and glucose) to feed the yeast. But the fructose is not assimilated as fast as the other sugars. The yeast should also have gotten sugars from the flour due to the action of amylase enzymes on the damaged starch and also enzymes in the yeast. Maybe you needed more molasses to get more fermentation than you got. But now you know what to expect when using molasses. I personally find molasses to be an interesting ingredient but it is not for all kinds of pizzas.

Peter

Offline Killmeyer000

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Re: Newbie - Making Progress - But Still Need More Dough Flavor
« Reply #43 on: February 25, 2012, 10:12:21 PM »
OK...Cool...Thanks.  Yeah, maybe in a dryer dough mix it would be better suited...Not sure.  But, I'm pretty sure it's not for me...at least not for this Sicilian style pizza.  I'm glad I tried it though.  I'm pretty happy with the way the crust is coming out now...so, here's the recipe as it stands now, in case anybody wants to try it.  A little more sauce and cheese than the style usually has, but that's how I like it.  As far as sauce and cheese go, I have made no real progress...I'm going to take a stab at making my own sauce, and experiment with a mix of cheeses next time...maybe 50/50 mozz and provolone.  I tried the white cheddar/mozz mix, and was not real happy with it.

Pizza – Sicilian Style C

    Pizza Dough Ingredients (12x17 blue steel, high-side pan)
Flour      100.0%         409 grams   (King Arthur bread flour)
Water   67.0%      274 grams   (refrigerated spring water)
Salt      2.0%      8 grams
Cane Sugar   4.4%      18 grams        (or 1 Tablespoon cane sugar)
IDY      0.50%      2 grams
Olive oil   1.0%      4 grams

      Other ingredients
Olive Oil – Enough to brush a layer on bottom and sides of pan, and drizzle top of dough
Mozzarella – 9 to 10 Slices from deli
24 slices of pepperoni
Corn Meal
Sea Salt
Parmesan/Romano mix shredded

   Sauce
9 to 10 oz. Contadina Canned Pizza Sauce or 9 to 10 oz. tangy home made sauce.

* Combine the following ingredients in a bowl or mixer in the following order:
* Water, sugar, olive oil, bread flour, salt and yeast.
* Pulse until all ingredients form into a single dough ball. Let rest for 15 minutes, and then
    knead thoroughly for 6 minutes in mixer.
* Place the dough into a rectangular polycarbonate container that has been sprayed
   with cooking spray.  Seal with the lid.  Then, put in the refrigerator for 3 days.  After about  
   1 ˝ days, turn the containers in the refrigerator, since the back will likely be colder
   than the front.
* Three hours prior to baking, brush bottoms and sides of pans with olive oil.  Sprinkle  
   bottoms of pans with corn meal and sea salt. Place the dough in the pan(s).
* Using the tips of your fingers stretch the dough to cover most of the pan. Cover the pan  
   with plastic wrap or lids to keep the moisture in and prevent the dough from “skinning.
* After about 2 to 3 hours, remove the plastic wrap or lids.  Dough should fill the pan now.
* Preheat the oven to 550° F.
* Uncover dough and drizzle the top of the dough with olive oil.  Be sure not to knock the
   dough down while topping it.
* Spread dough with about 2/3 can of Contadina sauce or home made sauce.
* Place the slices of mozzarella.
* Sprinkle dried basil on top of cheese…and Parmesan/Romano over entire pizza,
  including the crust.
* Place the pepperoni

* Bake on the middle-high rack for 4 mins, then turn pizza in oven…and another 4 mins, for a total of 8 minutes until the cheese appears to just start to brown. At this point, the crust should be crispy and browned.

Notes:
•   Blue steel pans were used from this link:
http://www.northernpizzaequipment.com/12x17blstpan.html
« Last Edit: February 26, 2012, 01:27:17 AM by Killmeyer000 »

Offline Killmeyer000

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Re: Newbie - Making Progress - But Still Need More Dough Flavor
« Reply #44 on: March 29, 2012, 11:11:18 AM »
Well, this pizza just gets better and better.  Switched to a 50/50 mix of Mozzarella and Provolone, and that was the taste I was looking for.  Last go-round, my wife, kids and parents-in-law called it the best pizza they ever had.  Making a couple of sheets this weekend.  Planning to make my own sauce for the first time.  Hopefully it will go well. 

I am trying a different method of cold rise.  Previously, I had been taking the dough from the mixer into lightly oiled tupperware containers, and into the fridge for 3 days.  Then, out and into pans for a few hour room temp rise.  I just thought that maybe I could skip a step.  So, this time I am trying to go from mixer straight into the lightly oiled pans, and into the fridge for the cold rise.  I'm not sure what this will do.  The pans are 12 X 17, and the tupperware is only about 6 X 10.  Not sure if the dough needs to rise upward in the tupperware...or if the rise in the pan, going more outward will have any effect?  If anyone knows, please let me know.  Thanks

Offline Killmeyer000

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Re: Newbie - Making Progress - But Still Need More Dough Flavor
« Reply #45 on: April 05, 2012, 04:57:32 PM »

I am trying a different method of cold rise.  Previously, I had been taking the dough from the mixer into lightly oiled tupperware containers, and into the fridge for 3 days.  Then, out and into pans for a few hour room temp rise.  I just thought that maybe I could skip a step.  So, this time I am trying to go from mixer straight into the lightly oiled pans, and into the fridge for the cold rise.  I'm not sure what this will do.  The pans are 12 X 17, and the tupperware is only about 6 X 10.  Not sure if the dough needs to rise upward in the tupperware...or if the rise in the pan, going more outward will have any effect?  If anyone knows, please let me know.  Thanks

FYI...This doesn't work.  Pizza was glued to the pans.  Have to rise the dough in separate container.  Dough just sucks up all of the oil in pans, if trying to pan rise.  I suppose I could have lifted up the pan-risen dough and put some oil underneath after the 3-day cold rise, instead of before...but, that's not really what I was aiming for...and probabaly wouldn't be much of a time saver.


 

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