Using Beer instead of Water in the Flour????

[TomN]

After the dough ball rises over night, I will cut the dough into 3 equal sections and then 3 dough balls. Before i use the individual dough ball that I press out by hand, i let it reach room temperature first.

[buceriasdon]

Tom, I look forward to your review of the finished pie.
Don

[Meatballs]

Red Hook ESB has an IBU rating of 28 (or so... the consensus on the internet).  IBU stands for International Bitterness Units and is an analysis of the bitter hop Alpha Acids dissolved into the beer during the boil phase of its production.  A rating of 28 is moderate. For comparison, Budweiser regular is 11 to 12 IBU and Ruination (by Stone Brewing) is about 100 IBU.  The 28 IBU in Red Hook ESB is about as high a bitterness as I would recommend for cooking, and, seeing that is diluted 40% with water, it should make for an interesting flavor contribution without contributing too much bitterness.

Red Hook ESB has an alcohol percentage by 5.8 ABV (Alcohol By Volume as opposed to ABW Alcohol By Weight) which puts it into the standard strength beer category on the upper end of the scale.  Plenty low enough not to interfere with the Baker's Yeast (which can handle up to 12%).

Red Hook ESB is usually moderately priced as craft beer goes but is not considered one of the finer brews.  Actually Red Hook is owned by Anheuser Busch and the Widmer brothers who together have a 50.2% stake in the brewery.  This removes the company from the realm of "Craft Brewery" to many beer connoisseurs.  The beer is considered a "gateway" craft beer in the snob circles, one which introduces people to flavorful beer without being too strongly flavored in any one characteristic.  It is readily available in most areas because of A.B.'s distribution system.

Now that that's out of the way... its an interesting selection for pizza, as drinking the beer with pizza would be one of my recommendations.  I personally prefer a lager with pizza, such as Grolsch, Pilsner Urquell, Staropramen, or a German pills like Warsteiner.  My second choice would be a pale ale such as Sierra Nevada, Bell's Two Hearted, Sweetwater 420, etc.  I would not, however recommend any of these beers for making the dough, they are all too bitter.  So if one wanted a beer to make the dough with and drink with the pizza...Red Hook would actually work well.

I think it would be a cool hook to serve the same beer with the pizza as it was made from.  It would be a neat special at a pizzeria to order a pizza made with beer and get the same beer at one price (10 inch Red Hook pizza with one topping and a Red Hook ESB for $8.99).

Ron

[TomN]

This morning, I push down the dough and and shape it some more. Then I transfer the dough out of the bowl and into a gallon size plastic freezer bag and let it continue to cold rise. Later in the day, when the dough rises more, I will make 3 smaller dough balls out of this one big dough ball. (I am using a 14" pizza screen to cook it on and I like the dough to be a THIN crust pizza, other wise i would only make 2 dough balls)  When I am ready to use each dough ball, i let them come up to room temperature, then I hand press then into my pizza shape.

[cosgrojo]

Ron- I don't think that the bitterness of the beer would be a detracting characteristic in the finished dough. Having used an extensive number of different liquids for dough, the bigger the flavor profile, the better. The flour profoundly mutes the flavored of the liquid being used, and in the case of beer, I think you would be hard pressed to be able to tell the difference between different beers. The type of beer (in my experience) effects the particular aroma, and texture of the the dough, but not so much the flavor.

Btw, the idea of pairing the drink with the dough liquid is my inspiration for beer dough. It is the concept of the restaurant that I one day want to open. I was hoping noone else would think of it before I could get my financial world in order! Damn you meatballs! Lol

[buceriasdon]

Having limited access to the great variety of beers available to others north of me, my means of comparison are thereby also limited. That being said I agree with cosgrojo, it would be darn tough for me to identify one beer or another, but I don't have an educated palate perhaps that others possess when it comes to beer in pizza crust. I also find the addition of white wine or vinegar to have a pleasing effect if not taken to extremes.
Don

[TomN]

"And here we go" ........ Said the Joker.

I made a pizza with the dough i made with the Red Hook ESB Beer. in order, I cut the large dough ball into three. and them made three smaller dough balls, of which i used only one so far. Then pressed out the dough and put it on my pizza screen.

[TomN]

Added Pizzaiolo Pizza Sauce by Stanislaus, added Kirkland Signature Cheese which is made for Costco by Sorrento. Added Carando Pepperoni, cooked Mayan Sweet onions and sliced Lindsay olives. I thought the crust turned out GREAT!!!. The crust was lighter and really did have more flavor. Specifically, it changed the texture of the dough, which is the REAL plus for me. I will make it this way again.

PS
I actually had to use a fork in the cooking process to put down some bubbling in the pizza that took place as it cooked. However,  it was well worth the effort.

[TomN]

By the way, Meatballs & Cosgrojo, I did pair the beer with the pizza that was made with the same beer, just like many of the restaurants ALREADY do. Also, I know a Pizzeria in my area that uses a different beer each month which is used in making their dough and serves that specific monthly selected beer with your order. They advertise the beer of the month as well with a banner. Like King Solomon said,  "What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun." Ecclesiastes 1:9

[cosgrojo]

Tom- there are places like you mention here as well... My focus is on liquids of many varieties, not just beer. My spin on the idea is a bit more broad spectrum. But thanks for the info! It's always good to know what's trending in other places. 

The pizza looks delish. Temp and time?

[TomN]

Crosgrojo, I was just joking with you since you made the comment to meatballs:

I use my home oven preheated at 425 degrees and cook for 15 mins.  Also, I am cooking my pizza on a pizza screen and the dough is hand pressed very thin.

[TomN]

RECAP:  Pizza Beer Dough Recipe

2 cups of Pendleton POWER Flour
2 cups of Pendelton MONDAKO Flour
1 Teaspoon of Salt - mix the salt into the flour
I add these all together in a large metal bowl. (Most Pizzerias use either one or the other. i am mixing the two flours, since I have a 25 LB bag and a 32 lb bag that I need to use up before expiration dates.)

1 1/2 teaspoons of Quick Rise yeast
1 Tablespoon of white sugar
4.8 ounces of warm water
Mix all together in a separate cup and let set for 5 mins

7.2 ounces of Red Hook ESB (extra special bitter) Beer set aside by itself in a separate cup (it is recommended to let the beer come up to room temperature or even carefully heat it in a microwave oven)

Mix warm Water, Yeast, and Sugar blend into flour
Add a Tablespoon of Olive Oil to flour and continue to mix
Mix in the Red Hook ESB (Extra Special Bitter) Beer into the flour

I do not use a mixing hook. I mix and kneed the dough by hand since I am making a smaller batch for home use and not in a restaurant setting that might need to use 50 lbs of flour per day.  (I mix, then kneed for about 5 to 10 mins, until it becomes one big dough ball.)
I then cover the mixing bowl with plastic wrap and set in the refrigerator over night for 24 hours or more.

After the overnight cold rise, I push down the dough and and shape it some more. Then I transfer the dough out of the bowl and into a gallon size plastic freezer bag and let it continue to cold rise.
Later in the day, when the dough rises more, I will make 3 smaller dough balls out of this one big dough ball. (I am using a 14" pizza screen to cook it on and I like the dough to be a THIN crust pizza, other wise i would only make 2 dough balls for a THICKER crust)  
When I am ready to use each dough ball, I let them come up to room temperature, then I hand press the dough ball into a 14" pizza shape and place on the pizza screen.
I use my home oven preheated at 425 degrees and for 15 mins on a pizza screen.

[Pete-zza]

Tom,

Does your pizza friend charge a lot more for the pizzas made using beer in the dough? Using 60% beer would seem to be an expensive proposition. Or does he have an inexpensive source for the beer?

Peter

[TomN]

The prices:
Regular Cheese Pizza
12”……………………… $9.00        
14”……………………… $12.00      
16”……………………… $15.00
24-Cut………………….. $30.00

Add on toppings 12" $1, 14" $2, 16" $3, 24-cut" $4

Combination Pizza’s come Smothered in Mozzarella Cheese!
12”……………………… $16.99
14”……………………… $21.99
16”……………………… $26.99

The other Pizzeria/Restaurant that advertizes Beer in the dough:
Cheese Pizza
8"    $4.50
12"  $9.99
14"  $11.99
16"  $14.99

Additional Toppings Each:
12"  $1.50
14"  $1.75
16"  $2.00

Specialty pizzas:
Medium $15.99
Large    $18.99
XL       $24.99
24-Cut………………….. $49.99

[TomN]

Meatballs:

You are very knowledgeable about BEER, and I am not. What is the break down on Grolsch Beer and Hefeweizen Beer. It would seem that either of these would make a great dough? Would there be a problem to watch out for?  etc...   I value your thoughts on this! Thank you.

TomN

[Meatballs]

Tom,

Well, Grolsch is a German Pils style beer, a lager.  Hefe Weizen is a German Ale brewed with 50% malted wheat and a very, very funky yeast that produces banana and clove flavored compounds.  Maintaining a balance between the clove (4-vinyl guaiacol) and the banana ester (Isoamyl acetate) is the hallmark of a good beer and dependent very much on fermentation temperature. 

I would worry that the more volatile ester, the banana flavor, would blow off during cooking leaving the clove flavor out of balance, but this is a guess as I've never used a weizen in cooking before.  It would be an interesting experiment as the beer is very flavorful and could contribute a very interesting character not found in other beers.  I do know that Belgian beers that exhibit considerable phenols make excellent braises (Google: Carbonade).  A Carbonade is to a Belgian what Coq au vin is to a Frenchman.

The Grolsch is much lighter in flavor than a Hefe Weizen and exhibits a very delicate balance between hops and malt (the sweetness in beer).  The flavor contribution in cooking would mostly be in the sweetness of the malt and less of the ferment character as found in the Hefe Weizen.  Actually, the delicate balance of Grolsch would mostly be lost in a pizza dough and could probable be duplicated with a much less expensive lager, say... Miller.  But, please don't drink the Miller.  Well, when I'm broke and looking for a buzz I do, but, Steel Reserve is actually more efficient and economical even, but I digress.  I use Steel Reserve in my Chili, its my secret weapon in a heavy dish but the alcohol level puts it out in a dough.

Hope this helps,

Ron

[TomN]

Ron (Meatballs),

Tonight, I finished the last of my dough made with Beer. It was BETTER tasting the second day than the dough I used within the first 24 hours (from the same dough batch). So, I am definitely going to give my dough more time in the refrigerator before using it to make pizza.

Also, I was surfing the web tonight to see other recipes for Beer used in the making of pizza dough. (There is a lot of info out there.)  In one of the recipe details, they suggested that you use Beer that has come up to room temperature. (I did not even think of this) Will this have any effect on the dough flavor? Does the Beer temperature really matter?? Do people ever drink Beer at room temperature to get more flavor? Again, my Beer knowledge is very limited. Thanks

TomN

[Meatballs]

Tom,

Been busy with yard work the last few days, sorry. 

There are no beers that are intentionally drank at room temperature that I can think of, but, cellar temperature (54 deg. F) is appropriate for most ales.  English ales, commonly referred to as Real Ale in that country, are consumed at 54 def. F exclusively and are also of very low carbonation (1 atm. CO2 at 54 deg. F).  This is the warm, flat, English beer people often refer to.  I'm actually a bit of an expert on conditioning this style of beer and enjoy it immensely.  Beers in widget cans try to emulate this product, somewhat successfully.

As to warming beer for dough use, absolutely.  You would want to treat the beer used in dough making the same as you would the water component.  My dough recipe calls for a finished temperature at around 85 deg. F for which I add water (under normal conditions) around 112 to 115 deg. F.  Warming the beer in the microwave (carefully) would be fine. 

As to temperature affecting flavor...Its a huge deal.  The general rule is that lagers which are fermented cold should be drank cold, around 40 deg. F. (lager initial fermentation temp is 50 F. with an extended "lagering" or storage phase at 38 to 40 F) Ales which are fermented warm (Fermentation around 68 F) should be drank warmer, that's where the 54 deg. F "cellar temperature" comes in to play.  I use wine refrigerators to store my better ales, especially those that are aged.  If a beer is too cold when poured, I'll wait, hands wrapped around the glass until it warms to the proper temperature (proper being where I like it).  There are all sorts of exceptions the this rule but mostly its a good guide.

Try getting a quality Pale Ale from a good Microbrewery or Craft Brewery, put it in the fridge and let it get cold.  Open the beer and pour it into a glass and take a sip.  Note the flavors and the balance between the hops and malt and any other flavors present, esters from the fermentation, phenolic off tones etc.  Now, take a critical taste every few minutes as the glass warms and you will notice a pronounced shift in the balance between sweet malt and hop flavors and expression of fermentation esters (fruity flavors).  If you have a thermometer, take its temperature and see where you feel the balance of flavors is best.  Also examine the aroma with the temperature changes.

Always drink a beer from a glass and never the bottle or can.  The narrow mouth does not allow the aromas to be inhaled while drinking and throws the flavor profile off considerably, try it.  Different beers require different glassware to maximize the drinking experience, look to the brewer for suggestions of glassware until you learn the differences...guess I better stop here.  I can wax all day on this subject.

Ron

[TomN]

Thanks Ron for all the great Beer information. I tried the warm beer and i agree with you. Also, by letting the beer set aside longer, I noticed that the dough did not bubble up when cooking this time, but still had great flavor. Perhaps this is because some of the carbonation got a chance to escape.

I should probably save the following comments for another thread (and perhaps I will later), but I tried a whole milk DANISH style Mozzarella cheese on my dough made with the beer. I did this because I know of two different Pizzerias that say this type of cheese is what sets their pizza apart. One is by Sorrento and the other is by a company called Olympic.  I did try the Olympic Danish Mozzarella. I purchased it at a local cheese shop. Although it does not say Olympic, it is Olympic Brand cheese. It might be that the distributor is under contract to sell only to restaurants and thus re-wrapped it with their label. Either way, it was a great way to top off my pizza dough made with extra ingredients. I will include some photos of the cheese.

This Cheese is a creamer tasting cheese. More so than even whole milk Mozzarella cheese. However, I must add that this DANISH whole milk mozzarella cheese is very expensive at $4.99 a pound. (I can buy 5 pounds of regular mozzarella cheese already shredded for 11.99 total)  But i wanted to try it so much, I bought 5 pounds of the 10 pound block. What I liked about this particular Cheese Shop was that they cut the 5 pounds into 2 smaller blocks for me. This lets me shred the cheese easier.

[TomN]

other pics that show the process