Author Topic: Using Beer instead of Water in the Flour????  (Read 61887 times)

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Offline SquirrelFlight

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Re: Using Beer instead of Water in the Flour????
« Reply #140 on: August 09, 2012, 05:40:47 PM »
I love commenting on this thread, personally

I love reading the comments.  I'm an aspiring home brewer and readily eat up any bit of knowledge I can get from others.  As soon as the weather cools down a bit, I plan to get a batch of (very basic) hefe going - my carboy has been tied up for the last year with a batch of my wife's mead....


Offline TomN

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Re: Using Beer instead of Water in the Flour????
« Reply #141 on: August 13, 2012, 11:46:40 PM »
Bison Organic Honey Basil

The name alone got me to try this beer. It worked well in the dough and turned out very well. However, this is not one that i would consider immediately running out to get again. It did drink well, but not the same effect that the Double Bock or Barley Wine Ale beers have. Again, this is a good beer, but not what I was looking for in a pizza dough beer.

I could be wrong here??? With my limited beer knowledge, I could be comparing apples to oranges because that Barley Wine Ale Beer sure had some power / kick to it!!!
« Last Edit: August 14, 2012, 10:06:19 AM by TomN »

Offline TomN

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Re: Using Beer instead of Water in the Flour????
« Reply #142 on: August 13, 2012, 11:50:57 PM »
The Beer description on the side of the bottle.

Offline Pizza De Puta

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Re: Using Beer instead of Water in the Flour????
« Reply #143 on: August 18, 2012, 02:08:17 AM »
Interesting thread, thanks for posting OP!

Today I made two 18" dough balls using 60/40 beer/water.  The beer used was Fat Tire amber ale.  Love the smell of the fermenting dough with the beer added.

Will proof these guys for 48-72 hours and post the results.
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Offline Pizza De Puta

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Re: Using Beer instead of Water in the Flour????
« Reply #144 on: August 19, 2012, 08:20:31 PM »
Baked-up four pizzas today in the Blodgett 1048, two of which were made with the 60/40 Fat Tire Ale/water blend at 63% hydration.  The crusts all came out good.  These were made with a blend of Pendleton Power/Monkato flour.  The 48-hour rise in the fridge was quite large and both pizzas had excellent spring.  Cooking time was six minutes.  I served the pizza to three couples, ourselves included.  Frankly, I couldn't taste much difference between the beer dough and a Lehmann Dough, though I liked the smell of the fermenting beer-laced dough.  However, my wife and the wives of my taster buddies both loved the finished crust.  My wife said it was the best I've made so far and our female guests said it was the best they've ever eaten. So while all the men in our group liked the crust fine as they sipped an ice-cold Fat Tire, the non-drinking women were absolutely crazy about it . . . about the opposite of what I would have expected.

The questions I now have are:

Is beer in the dough worth the extra cost and labor in making dough for market?  A batch of 50 dough balls would need about 300 fluid ounces of beer or about 2 1/2 gallons or 25x 12 oz bottles.  Purchasing beer for about $6.00 per twelve pack, that would mean a cost increase of about 25 cents for each dough ball.

What specific beer would have the most positive impact to flavor and texture, relative to cost increase minimization?

This test result is a real head-scratcher.  I now have more questions than when I started.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2012, 11:11:41 PM by Pizza De Puta »
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Offline Pizza De Puta

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Re: Using Beer instead of Water in the Flour????
« Reply #145 on: August 20, 2012, 08:42:45 AM »
Upon further reflection, beer may just be the answer. After a long swim, I walked into the kitchen hungry and reheated a slice of pepperoni/mushroom that had beer in the dough.  I sat down, eating slowly and marveling at the light, tender, and airy crust.  The crunch, the char, the full-flavor was there.  The crust was soft with a crunchy shell and not a bit chewy.  I just sort of marveled at how truly good this slice was even though it was 8 hours old.
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Offline TomN

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Re: Using Beer instead of Water in the Flour????
« Reply #146 on: August 20, 2012, 02:01:06 PM »
However, my wife and the wives of my taster buddies both loved the finished crust.  My wife said it was the best I've made so far and our female guests said it was the best they've ever eaten. So while all the men in our group liked the crust fine as they sipped an ice-cold Fat Tire, the non-drinking women were absolutely crazy about it . . . about the opposite of what I would have expected.

The questions I now have are:

Is beer in the dough worth the extra cost and labor in making dough for market?

Hello Pizza De Puta,

I think you answered your own question. Everyone loved the pizza, your best yet. Sometimes when you are the one making and sampling the pizza on a regular basis, you don't notice the taste as much as other people do. To me, it is worth the extra cost. (But i am making it at home and not in business) The beer that I use often are Double Bocks. I love the Double Bock that Samuel Adams makes. They are sweeter tasting beers.

A friend that owns several Pizzerias, always adds beer to the flour and uses ESB, by Red Hook, exclusively. This is a more bitter tasting beer and does not cost as much as the Double Bock beers. (see page one of this thread)

A tavern in town, advertises beer in their dough and they use Samuel Adams and other beers. In fact, they change it up each month for variety. They also offer one size pizza 14", with the beer dough and they offer pizza NOT made with beer. (see his sign on the tavern wall, on page 7 of this thread)  He will pair the finished pizza made with beer, served with the same beer that the dough was made with. Quite fun to drink a cold beer and eat pizza made with that same beer. People like it.

It's up to you. However, I will always add beer to my pizza dough. I love what it does to the texture and the flavor.

Best to you,

TomN
« Last Edit: August 21, 2012, 12:27:10 AM by TomN »

Offline TomN

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Re: Using Beer instead of Water in the Flour????
« Reply #147 on: August 20, 2012, 06:34:04 PM »
Pizza De Puta,

I forgot the mention that I use the Pendleton POWER flour by itself. I only mixed the two earlier in this thread because I had a bag of each. The POWER flour has a higher protein level and so it can last longer in the fridge and IMO, it has a better texture over all than Mondako.

TomN

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Using Beer instead of Water in the Flour????
« Reply #148 on: August 20, 2012, 06:54:16 PM »
Baked-up four pizzas today in the Blodgett 1048, two of which were made with the 60/40 Fat Tire Ale/water blend at 63% hydration.  The crusts all came out good.  These were made with a blend of Pendleton Power/Monkato flour.  The 48-hour rise in the fridge was quite large and both pizzas had excellent spring.  Cooking time was six minutes.  I served the pizza to three couples, ourselves included.  Frankly, I couldn't taste much difference between the beer dough and a Lehmann Dough, though I liked the smell of the fermenting beer-laced dough.  However, my wife and the wives of my taster buddies both loved the finished crust.  My wife said it was the best I've made so far and our female guests said it was the best they've ever eaten. So while all the men in our group liked the crust fine as they sipped an ice-cold Fat Tire, the non-drinking women were absolutely crazy about it . . . about the opposite of what I would have expected.

The questions I now have are:

Is beer in the dough worth the extra cost and labor in making dough for market?  A batch of 50 dough balls would need about 300 fluid ounces of beer or about 2 1/2 gallons or 25x 12 oz bottles.  Purchasing beer for about $6.00 per twelve pack, that would mean a cost increase of about 25 cents for each dough ball.
What specific beer would have the most positive impact to flavor and texture, relative to cost increase minimization?

This test result is a real head-scratcher.  I now have more questions than when I started.
If you used beer at your restaurant you would buy 12 packs  ???
« Last Edit: August 20, 2012, 06:57:12 PM by Chicago Bob »
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Offline Pizza De Puta

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Re: Using Beer instead of Water in the Flour????
« Reply #149 on: August 22, 2012, 07:03:29 PM »
We had a blind taste test today when I invited a few friends over to sample several pizzas.  Pizzas #1 and #2 were both cheese and consisted of a 50/50 Power/Monkato blend of flour at 64% and proofed 24 hours.  #1 used water and #2 used 50/50 water and Fat Tire Ale.  Pizza #2 turn-out a little darker and crispier due to cooking variance which skewed the results.

The testers were told that the pizzas were "formulated differently" but little else.  One guest was a former Navy cook and beer lover who actually slightly preferred #1 for its "lighter" flavor.  His tea-tottling wife preferred #2 and was actually embarassed at the result of the test.  Tasters favored pizza #2 with beer slightly over the non-beer but it was really close.

The BIG surprised came when #4, a non-beer version that had overproofed, was reballed twice, and was 120+ hours old, was stretched and used at the last minute of today's testing party.  The flavor, texture, and spring of this dough, combined with a unique blend of toppings proved to be a KILLER.  While beer and water seems to be a bit of a hair-splitting exercise, addtional aging, 2nd & 3rd proofing, and reballing beyond 48 hours really got the tasters excited.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2012, 08:06:10 PM by Pizza De Puta »
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Offline TomN

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Re: Using Beer instead of Water in the Flour????
« Reply #150 on: August 22, 2012, 07:16:23 PM »
Pizza De Puta,

Try letting your dough proof for 48 hours (for more flavor development) and use a Double Bock Beer for that sweeter taste or a Barley Wine Beer (11.6 percent alcohol). I am convinced that beer in the dough makes a BIG difference in flavor and texture. (There is no hair-splitting exercise, IMO.)

Also, coat your dough ball with Extra Virgin Olive Oil before you proof it in the fridge.

Finally, instead of blending the flours, just use the Pendleton POWER flour in your dough.

Best to you

TomN
« Last Edit: August 22, 2012, 07:18:28 PM by TomN »

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Using Beer instead of Water in the Flour????
« Reply #151 on: August 22, 2012, 07:58:52 PM »
We had a blind taste test today when I invited a few friends over to sample several pizzas.  Pizzas #1 and #2 were both cheese and consisted of a 50/50 Power/Monkato blend of flour at 64% and proofed 24 hours.  #1 used water and #2 used 50/50 water and Fat Tire Ale.  Pizza #2 turn-out a little darker and crispier due to cooking variance which skewed the results.

The testers were told that the pizzas were "formulated differently" but little else.  One guest was a former Navy cook and beer lover who actually slightly preferred #1 for its "lighter" flavor.  His tea-tottling wife preferred #2 and was actually embarassed at the result of the test.  Tasters favored pizza #2 with beer slightly over the non-beer but it was really close.

The BIG surprised came when #4, a non-beer version that had overproofed, was reballed twice, and was 120+ hours old, was stretched and used at the last minute of today's testing party.  The flavor, texture, and spring of this dough, combined with a unique blend of toppings proved to be a KILLER.  While beer and water seems to be a bit of a hair-splitting exercise, addtional aging, 2nd & 3rd proofing, and reballing beyond 48 hours really got the tasters excited.

re, some of my best pies have been made from the "forgotten dough" that was found in the back of the frig 3 weeks after I put it there and then resuscitated it...... ;)
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Offline Pizza De Puta

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Re: Using Beer instead of Water in the Flour????
« Reply #152 on: August 23, 2012, 12:00:25 PM »
Try letting your dough proof for 48 hours (for more flavor development) and use a Double Bock Beer for that sweeter taste or a Barley Wine Beer (11.6 percent alcohol). I am convinced that beer in the dough makes a BIG difference in flavor and texture. (There is no hair-splitting exercise, IMO.)

Finally, instead of blending the flours, just use the Pendleton POWER flour in your dough.

Hey Tom

My local store has an extensive selection of beer but no Double Bock.  However, they did have Red Hook so I bought a bottle and made two 18" balls out of it, 50/50 beer/water.  I'll round up some tasters and have a double blind test this weekend.  This will give me more data.  Since my experimenting will ultimately end in a market crust, I am trying to be as careful as possible to get accurate, objective results.  Since introducing beer to the dough adds both material and labor costs, it is not an ingredient to be taken lightly.

My findings are that a 50/50 blend of Power/Monkato produces a crust that is a little lighter and less chewy than straight Power.  Straight Power seems a little better suited for a nice, heavy bagel.

Thanks again for the input.
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Offline Pizza De Puta

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Re: Using Beer instead of Water in the Flour????
« Reply #153 on: August 26, 2012, 11:04:19 PM »
Served 4x 18" pizzas today to 11 new taste testers:

Pizzas #1 and #2 were Volpi pepperonis with #1 64% hydration with water and #2 using 50/50 water/Red Hook beer.  All the pizzas had 72 hours to proof, none were reballed.  Bake time was 4:30 in the old Blodgett. The testers were told only that the dough formulation was "different" between the pizzas.  However, #1 came out a little over-charred on the bottom (read burnt), this invalidated the results.  Three testers preferred #1 and 8 liked #2 the best.

Pizza #3 was a straight 64% water hydration and topped with Columbus calabrese salami and mushrooms.  This pizza was tested by the tasters and a couple stated they enjoyed the mushrooms, but otherwise few comments were forthcoming.  I may have to develop some evaluation worksheets to gleen more structured information from the testers.

Pizza #4 was 50/50 beer and consisted of ham, linguica, bacon, fresh tomato, fresh basil, smoked mozz and a cheese blend.  Very popular in the flavor department but a little sloppy and mushy as my toppings were too-much for the crust to support.

In summary, the beer pizza was favored by most but the race was again really close.  Those who preferred the beer crust, did so by the slimmest of margins.  Several described the water-based crust as slightly lighter but the beer crust as a smiggen more flavorful.  This was the third and most elaborate of the beer tests and the trend that women prefer the beer crust more than men was again present--I won't speculate why.  Also, I am now convinced that the flavor difference between beer and non-beer dough is fairly small--at least with the Fat Tire and Red Hook beers I've used so far.  Two additional test parties and a free catering gig should yield more data next month. Since beer effectively doubles the price of a dough ball and adds labor, I'm scrutinizing this outcome very carefully.  Overall, I'm disappointed with this round of pizzas, they weren't awful but were a long way from where we need to be.

I was given an assortment of Blue Moon beer at the party, which type should I try, Tom?

Notes:

(1) Used Stanislaus 7/11 instead of Escalon 6 in 1 as a sauce base.  Today's sauce did not turn out as good as usual . . . one step backward.  Need to stick with 6 in 1, made only 7 miles from my house.  Escalon has a sweeter, brighter taste out of the can.

(2)  Compressing and reballing at 48 hours, allowing a 24-hour second rise, then baking at the 72 hour point seems to enhance the texture and eating experience of the pizza.  Reballing represents additional labor but this time and money well spent.  Today's straight 72-hour proof, without the reball wasn't as good as the reballed dough used during the previous testing session.

(3)  Cut the cheese quantity from 450 to 350 grams and increased the provolone ratio.  Wrong, wrong, wrong.

(4)  Very little oven spring today despite the 4:30 bake times.  Allowed dough 2 hours to come up to temp from the frig, may try to use colder dough next time.  Suggestions?
« Last Edit: August 30, 2012, 11:48:23 AM by Pizza De Puta »
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Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Using Beer instead of Water in the Flour????
« Reply #154 on: August 26, 2012, 11:08:43 PM »
I believe this is very common......"Several described the water-based crust as more airy but the beer crust as more flavorful." 
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Offline TomN

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Re: Using Beer instead of Water in the Flour????
« Reply #155 on: August 29, 2012, 01:22:15 PM »
Pizza De Puta,

I have had good results with Blue Moon Belgian White. However, the real fun of making Pizza dough with beer is being able to experiment with the many different beers available on the market. (as you can see from the many beers that I have posted on this thread) Since you have all the Blue Moon beer, have fun experimenting and eating the pizza.

While some might disagree with me, I choose to NOT use any stout beers. They make the pizza dough to dark looking and tend to affect the texture of the dough in a negative way.

Also, only you can choose between water only or some beer for your pizza. IMO, I want to offer my friends and family something that sets my pizza apart from the average pizzeria in town. (Forgive my bragging here, because I do not mean it in this way) I will put my dough up against 90 percent of the pizzerias that I have visited. It is not that I am an expert at this, it is because they do not want to spare the extra expense for good beer and flour, nor the extra time to proof the dough (rise time).

Fortunately for me, I am not trying to compete with the $5.00 lunch pizza down the street. I make pizza to be enjoyed. It is a good feeling to present your friends and family pizza made with the best ingredients, not rushed for time or being concerned with profit margins. (no offense to those that have to make a living in areas where this kind of pizza is not marketable)

Best to you

TomN
« Last Edit: August 29, 2012, 01:50:44 PM by TomN »

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Using Beer instead of Water in the Flour????
« Reply #156 on: August 29, 2012, 02:54:55 PM »
The best beer dough pizza in town back in the day in Chicago used  "G. Heileman's Old Style Beer". Nutt'in fancy but boy it sure was GOOD!
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Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Using Beer instead of Water in the Flour????
« Reply #157 on: August 29, 2012, 02:55:41 PM »
Make ya dizzy too!   ;D
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Offline dipizzaepizzerie

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Re: Using Beer instead of Water in the Flour????
« Reply #158 on: August 30, 2012, 06:59:38 AM »
I visited a Pizzeria today (01/24/2012) that is using Pendleton Mondako Flour Pre-Mix. However, instead of using water, they are using beer. I did not get to try the pizza (as I did not have enough time) but it caught my attention and made me want to try it. I asked the owner about this and he said that you have to use a lighter color beer (just not a dark beer). Beer makes the dough lighter in texture (so I am told). Also, they change the beer each month to create interest and variety for their customers. They have used:  Samuel Adams Whitewater IPA, a Hefeweizen beer, etc.

I was curious if anyone has tried this and are there any DO's or DON'Ts that you recommend in this type of dough making process? Finally, is this for real or is this just a marketing novelty? THANK YOU as always.

TomN
that's quite an interesting thread.
I'm an italian former pizza chef and when I was working I heard of someone using  beer, either instead or with water, to speed up the rising process.
But only "in case of emergency".. not as a everyday habit. The reason is that the ferments in the beer combine with those of the yeast (especially if you use baker's yeast- as almost everyone do in italy) and alter the rising. Yes, the dough rises in much less time but it's likely to be undigestible,  can swell in your stomach and make you feel bloated.
I've never used beer in my pizzeria and never eaten a pizza prepared in this way, but I'l dove to hear how you cope with this downside...
Thank you


Offline TomN

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Re: Using Beer instead of Water in the Flour????
« Reply #159 on: August 30, 2012, 06:25:52 PM »
that's quite an interesting thread.
I'm an italian former pizza chef and when I was working I heard of someone using  beer, either instead or with water, to speed up the rising process.
But only "in case of emergency".. not as a everyday habit. The reason is that the ferments in the beer combine with those of the yeast (especially if you use baker's yeast- as almost everyone do in italy) and alter the rising. Yes, the dough rises in much less time but it's likely to be undigestible,  can swell in your stomach and make you feel bloated.
I've never used beer in my pizzeria and never eaten a pizza prepared in this way, but I'l dove to hear how you cope with this downside...
Thank you



Everyone is entitled to their opinion, that is what makes this website great. However, I can name ten pizzerias (in my area of the country) that are using dough made with 60 percent beer / 40 percent water in their dough recipe. It has nothing to do with emergency dough rising time, since they do a cold rise for a minimum of 24 hours. It has to do with flavor and texture.

Also, I have never heard of anyone feeling bloated or complain about any downside. (Unless they have eaten too much pizza. LOL ) When you cook with wine or beer the alcohol is gone but the flavor remains. Like many other recipes, other than pizza dough. Examples: Beer Battered Fish, Red or White Wine in sauces, etc...

Once again, I created this thread to explore and highlight another method for pizza dough making. If you are against beer in your dough making process. DON"T use it. If you like beer in your dough making process, then USE it. It's all up to you. The advantage of making pizza at home is that you can make and enjoy the pizza just the way you want it to be. Also, you can use the very best ingredients.

In the mean time, I will continue to explore more beers to use.

Best to you as always.

TomN
PS
My first entry to this thread was my discovery of using beer in the dough making process. Skip to page 7 for the updated recipe and continue to check this thread because I will be exploring other beers to use.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2012, 09:38:36 AM by TomN »


 

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