Author Topic: Using Beer instead of Water in the Flour???? (Read 27414 times)

DNA Dan · « **Reply #180 on:** September 14, 2012, 12:58:56 AM »

TomN, Thanks for the Red Hook suggestion. Made a laminated pie tonight and it was fantastic! Rivaled my malt liquor varieties. BTW, it's ESB not ESP as mentioned earlier in the thread.

Bob, I have tried about 20 different strains of brewers yeast in my pies. I propagate the yeast in a flask then add it to my dough. Here's what I can conclude after the many month of research I have done regarding this:

1) Doughs made exclusively with brewer's yeast tend to have more flavor than just regular baking yeast, but less flavor than using beer.
2) Doughs made with brewer's yeast typically have less oven spring and poor gas formation.
3) IMO, the lager strains taste better than the Ale strains, but ale strains are easier to propagate.

Up to this point I was boiling off some of the alcohol on malt liquor so when I add it to my dough the yeast doesn't die. I was using up to 100% beer doing it this way. Using TomN's suggestion of 60% beer and the Red Hook straight without boiling, the yeast did not die and the flavor was still there. So I think the key isn't so much as using a lot of beer, as it is a strong one. The ESB packs some punch. It was much easier to use it straght than have to boil out the alcohol. Also it tasted "fresher" because the beer wasn't heated. Here's some pics of the pie dressed then cooked in the conveyor. I think you'll get more flavor out of using a beer than just yeast. There's a lot more to it than just the fermentation products. The grain/hops etc. add a lot of depth.

Chicago Bob · « **Reply #181 on:** September 14, 2012, 01:04:19 AM »

Dan, thank you for your insight on brewers yeast.
it is real nice to see you posting your work again for us to enjoy... appreciated.

Meatballs · « **Reply #182 on:** September 14, 2012, 07:58:20 PM »

Oktoberfest is a style of beer from Germany that is most associated with the Oktoberfest Festival in... well... October. It originated in Germany because of their old practice of brewing beer mostly in the cooler winter months and laying down the beer in caves for consumption in the summer months. Come October when they can start brewing again, they would have a festival and consume the leftover beer from the summer (the Wikipedia article on Oktoberfest does not bring out this important point). A difficult chore for sure but one the populace was up to. In more modern times a style of beer was developed that is now associated with the festival, the Oktoberfest Marzen. The beer is about 6% ABV and is malt forward in flavor. Hop flavor and bitterness are low by American craft brew standards (as usual).

I find few American Oktoberfest Marzens to be of exceptional quality or flavor, they tend to be overly hopped and excessive in the toasty flavors associalted with the traditional beer from Germany. The beer brewed in Germany is a darkish lager rich in malt flavors and displays flavors from the German tradition of the decoction mash. American examples, and I mean every one I have sampled, lacks the flavors associated with the decoction process, whether or not the brewery actually decocted the mash or not. (decoction involves the boiling of portions of the mash up to 3 times to burst starch granules in the barley and, when added back to the original mash, increase the temperature of the whole mash to a new level activating different combinations of amylase or proteolytic enzymes.)

Try a good German Oktoberfest next to say... a Sam Adams or other American brew to taste the difference. I recommend Spaten Oktoberfest or Hacker-Pshorr or for a different twist but very enjoyable... Becks. The difference will stun you.

As for which is best in Pizza? I don't know, have to try them both. For drinking, stick to the German products, its their tradition after all.

As for brewers yeast in baking... I have no experience but have considered it many times. I want to try the English bread known as Barm. The yeast is cropped off the top of an active ale fermentation and used in the bread, recipes are difficult to come by since nobody has the "barm" in this country except breweries and homebrewers. Barm is a term for the crud that forms on top of an ale fermentation as well as for the bread made from it. If anybody here has experience with barm please let me know, I really want to try it.

Ron

TomN · « **Reply #183 on:** September 17, 2012, 03:11:00 PM »

Hello Meatballs, (Ron),

Thank you for explaining the Octoberfest beers. So appreciated!!!

However, my beer store told me that the distributor that provides Spaten Oktoberfest and Hacker-Pshorr in my area of the country, has been out of stock for a few weeks now and will not be getting anymore in till next year because the demand was so high this year.

Are there any other Octoberfest beers that you can recommend to try? Thanks.

TomN

Meatballs · « **Reply #184 on:** September 17, 2012, 04:08:12 PM »

Tom,

Quote

Are there any other Octoberfest beers that you can recommend to try? Thanks.

I would look for anything produced in Germany. There are several smaller breweries producing the beer and, because of the German purity law of 1516 (Reinheitsgebot), you are assured of a traditional quality product.

Ron

TomN · « **Reply #185 on:** September 21, 2012, 12:40:03 PM »

Hello DNA Dan,

Your are welcome. I have tried many different beers for fun, but the Red Hook ESB (Extra Special Bitter) has to be at the top of the list (along side Samuel Adams Double Bock). The Red Hook has the best price and works so well.

I had a Survivor Party at my house this week. (we are survivor series fans) I made six pizzas with dough made with Red Hook ESB and Pendelton Power Flour. It was fanastic pizza dough. I let the dough cold rise for two days in the fridge. The flavor developement really came through. Worth the work!!!

TomN

TomN · « **Reply #186 on:** September 23, 2012, 04:22:21 PM »

I finished off the last of the dough made with Red Hook ESB, by making a White Pizza using several cheeses. Whole Milk Mozzarella (Bella Rosano Brand), Gouda Cheese, Sorrento Whole Milk Danish Mozzarella, Saputo Brand 3 Cheese Italian (Parmesan, Asiago, & Romano cheese), Roma Tomatoes on half of the pizza (by request, other wise i would have done tomatoes on the whole pizza) and Basil, Olive oil and Diced Garlic under the cheeses and Tomatoes topping.

TomN · « **Reply #187 on:** September 23, 2012, 04:23:47 PM »

Photos of the dough before the finished product.

Extra Special Bitter works really well.

TomN · « **Reply #188 on:** September 23, 2012, 04:27:32 PM »

Hello Meatballs (Ron),

With my limited beer knowledge, I was not aware that Extra Special Bitter was an Style of beer. I thought the name belonged to Red Hook until i found another ESB style beer. With that in mind, could you explain/ describe what is in, Extra Special bitter? I find this style of beer ESP and Double Bock to work the best so far.

Thank you!!!!

TomN

PS
Here is a photo of the next beer i will try in my dough making process. However, this bottle of beer was $5.99 a bottle.

Chicago Bob · « **Reply #189 on:** September 23, 2012, 07:30:43 PM »

That is a really nice looking cheese and tomato pie Tom.
What was your oil % on that one and the beer ratio, total HR? Thanks.

TomN · « **Reply #190 on:** September 25, 2012, 02:39:27 PM »

Hello Chicago Bob,

As for the beer ratio, I use my dough recipe as I always use.

(Mix in a bowl)
4 cups Pendleton Power Flour
1 teaspoon salt
1 Tablespoon of Extra Virgin Olive oil (or a quick pour)

(Mix in a glass)
1 & 1/2 teaspoon Quick Rise Yeast
1/2 teaspoon of sugar
5 ounces warm water

(in a separate glass)
9 ounces of beer (beer of your choice, but do not use Stout Beers)

Mix all ingredients and knead for 10 mins. (add more beer if your dough is too dry during the kneading process)
Coat the finished dough ball with Extra virgin olive oil and place in zip lock bag. (One Gallon Size bag)
Place the bag in the Fridge for 24 hours.
Recipe makes enough for three 14" pizzas (Obviously, divide the large dough ball into three smaller dough balls after it rises for 24 hours )

Let the cold dough warm up a little bit to room temperature (or close to it). Then, I press the dough out by hand and cook them on a 14" pizza screen at 425 degrees for 15 minutes
(oven is a standard home oven with a heating element and be sure to preheat your oven)

Olive Oil

On my white Pizza, I use the above dough recipe and then after I press out the dough and place it on a Pizza Screen, I just brush on an even amount of Extra Virgin Olive Oil that covers the entire pizza. If you do this and think that you have too much Olive Oil, just blot it a few times with a paper towel.

I sprinkle two cloves of freshly peeled Garlic which have been diced into small pieces. (As you make your white pizza, you will get a feel for how much garlic you like. Some people like more, others like less, thus I use two cloves.) Then, I cover the pizza with all the blends of Cheese, about equal amounts but using a higher percentage of the whole milk Mozzarella. Finally, sprinkle dry Basil over the Cheese and cover with thinly sliced Roma Tomatoes (or your favorite Tomatoes). Baked at 425 degrees for 15 mins.

TomN

The Dough Doctor · « **Reply #191 on:** September 25, 2012, 03:19:46 PM »

Cosgro;
Your approach to pizza reminds me of what we always tell our students...."Don't be afraid to experiment and try different things, your failures will taste almost as good as your successes".
Tom Lehmann/TDD

DNA Dan · « **Reply #192 on:** September 27, 2012, 07:36:04 PM »

The ESB thing is intriguing. Among the ale brewing yeasts, my favorite was #1968 London ESB Ale. It too had a similar taste to the Red Hook ESB. I wonder what it is about the bitter flavor that makes the crust taste so good. I also wonder if there is a bitter that you can purchase which would produce a similar taste. When I use the brewing yeast, there are no other beer byproducts in there because I propagate it in LME, so it's something about the yeast being used or the by products they produce that give this ESB flavor.

TomN · « **Reply #193 on:** September 28, 2012, 12:05:42 PM »

Quote from: DNA Dan on September 27, 2012, 07:36:04 PM

The ESB thing is intriguing. Among the ale brewing yeasts, my favorite was #1968 London ESB Ale. It too had a similar taste to the Red Hook ESB. I wonder what it is about the bitter flavor that makes the crust taste so good. I also wonder if there is a bitter that you can purchase which would produce a similar taste. When I use the brewing yeast, there are no other beer byproducts in there because I propagate it in LME, so it's something about the yeast being used or the by products they produce that give this ESB flavor.

Hello DNA Dan,

I am going to have to give the #1968 London ESB Ale a try. There is something unique about the ESB beers. However, I like to switch it up at times with a Double Bock beer. DB's give the dough a sweeter taste since they are a sweet tasting beer (IMO). Also, I love experimenting with the limited edition beers or seasonal beers for fun. It is so easy to use beer instead of the brewers yeast. Plus, you get a bonus treat with the beer that you have left over.

I know many Pizzerias that use the Red Hook ESB because it works and the price is right. But at home, you can experiment with all the unique/limited expensive beers. (And I do use Red Hook ESB as well)

TomN
PS
I am going to have to try some of the IPA beers and see how they work.

Chicago Bob · « **Reply #194 on:** September 28, 2012, 04:24:57 PM »

Sorry if I missed this but could one of you guys please tell me how to figure/work out the ratio when using these types of beers and ady yeast. I'm thinking I'll probably use all beer instead of water and then what...maybe 10% less yeast? I'm sure it will be trial and error but just thought ya'll might have a starting point for me...thanks.

TomN · « **Reply #195 on:** September 28, 2012, 07:18:22 PM »

Quote from: Chicago Bob on September 28, 2012, 04:24:57 PM

Sorry if I missed this but could one of you guys please tell me how to figure/work out the ratio when using these types of beers and ady yeast. I'm thinking I'll probably use all beer instead of water and then what...maybe 10% less yeast? I'm sure it will be trial and error but just thought ya'll might have a starting point for me...thanks.

Chicago Bob,

Every Pizzeria owner/cook that I have talked with, who uses beer in the dough making process, does NOT use beer only. It is usually a 40 percent water / 60 percent beer. (Perhaps I used the wrong title on the thread, when i first started it.) Hope that helps.

TomN
PS
You can always take my recipe and adjust it to the quantity of dough that you want to make.

TomN · « **Reply #196 on:** September 30, 2012, 11:05:35 PM »

Made seven Pizzas this weekend with dough that I made with New School ESB beer. The dough turned out very well with this beer. I did notice that this beer was a little darker in color that the Red Hook ESP. Here is a photo of the beers side by side.

TomN · « **Reply #197 on:** September 30, 2012, 11:06:24 PM »

Again the dough turned out very nice. These are the gallon size Ziploc freezer bags. Each bag has enough dough for three 14" regular crust pizzas.

TomN · « **Reply #198 on:** September 30, 2012, 11:11:53 PM »

One of the favorite pizzas made with the New School Extra Special Bitter beer dough was the Pizza made with 7 different cheeses, including Beecher's Flagship Cheese.

http://store.beechershandmadecheese.com/p-29-flagship-1-lb.aspx

Chicago Bob · « **Reply #199 on:** October 01, 2012, 08:56:37 AM »

Boy Tom, love the look of all those cheeses melting together. Was the taste worth the effort? Beautiful pizza...