Author Topic: NY Style?  (Read 11874 times)

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Offline norma427

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NY Style?
« on: January 24, 2012, 09:30:31 PM »
Last week I used Peterís formulation for a De Lorenzo clone pizza at reply 117 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg45060.html#msg45060 on the Mack thread at Reply 853 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg167732.html#msg167732  I decided to make another attempt this week, but to make a NY style pizza out of the dough formulation.  I used a TF of 0.07585, but kept the rest of the ingredients percents the same for a 16Ē pizza, except I changed the IDY to 0.40%.

The dough was mixed yesterday morning, and after all the ingredients were incorporated, I mixed on speed 1 in my Kitchen Aid mixer for 19 minutes.  The dough was very tight, but I balled and oiled it, then left it cold ferment until today, then left it at room temperature to ferment for 3 hrs.  As can be seen on the first picture, it can be seen how tight the dough was after it was mixed, and then in the next pictures, how the dough was relaxed until this afternoon when it was baked.  The resulting dough ball was very soft and very easy to open.  I still donít understand how a dough can mixed so long and the dough can be so easy to work with the next day.  

The resulting pizza was very thin, crispy, and tasty.  I am not sure what style this pizza is but it sure tasted like a NY style pizza to my taste testers, Steve, and me.

This was a video of Steve cutting the pizza with a pizza cutter.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNEyiPqVe30" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNEyiPqVe30</a>


Norma
« Last Edit: January 24, 2012, 10:52:31 PM by norma427 »
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Offline norma427

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Re: NY Style?
« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2012, 09:31:31 PM »
Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: NY Style?
« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2012, 09:32:55 PM »
Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: NY Style?
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2012, 09:34:14 PM »
Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: NY Style?
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2012, 09:35:22 PM »
Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: NY Style?
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2012, 09:36:38 PM »
Norma
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Offline chickenparm

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Re: NY Style?
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2012, 10:44:31 PM »
I have made many pizzas with dough kneaded for 30 minutes in a bread machine.I know it mixes differently,but it still came out great.

These days,I let the other Bread machine I use,knead for 10 minutes and put away for a cold rise.

As long as the dough warms up enough after a cold rise from the fridge,it should be easy to use and open.

 :)
-Bill

Offline norma427

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Re: NY Style?
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2012, 10:51:48 PM »
I have made many pizzas with dough kneaded for 30 minutes in a bread machine.I know it mixes differently,but it still came out great.

These days,I let the other Bread machine I use,knead for 10 minutes and put away for a cold rise.

As long as the dough warms up enough after a cold rise from the fridge,it should be easy to use and open.

 :)

Bill,

Thanks for posting that you also had long mix times and your dough still came out great.  :) I think you are right as long as the dough warms-up enough after the cold rise from the fridge it is easy to open and use.

Norma
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Online scott123

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Re: NY Style?
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2012, 11:41:25 PM »
Norma, 2 years ago I would have said that 5% oil wasn't NY style, but now... I'm not so sure. I actually made a 5% oil pie over the weekend, and, while I was impressed with how tender it was, I could see the oily sheen on the undercrust, and, to an extent, in the crumb.  Strictly speaking, I don't think one should see that sheen in the crumb for NY style.  As I look at photos of your crust, though, I'm not seeing any visible oiliness. Based on that way of defining NY style, then I'd say you're within the parameter.

In your particular situation, with the temps you're working at, it appears that the 5% oil (and 2% sugar) is going a long way in encouraging faster browning, which, imo, is producing one of the best pizzas I've ever seen you make.  Yes, I do have NY style on the brain, so I'm a bit biased toward this, but if you don't decide to sell this pie on a weekly basis, I think you're making a mistake.  The preferment Lehmann dough makes a phenomenal pie, but I think this is a tiny bit better- and potentially a bit more profitable.

Offline norma427

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Re: NY Style?
« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2012, 08:59:58 AM »
Norma, 2 years ago I would have said that 5% oil wasn't NY style, but now... I'm not so sure. I actually made a 5% oil pie over the weekend, and, while I was impressed with how tender it was, I could see the oily sheen on the undercrust, and, to an extent, in the crumb.  Strictly speaking, I don't think one should see that sheen in the crumb for NY style.  As I look at photos of your crust, though, I'm not seeing any visible oiliness. Based on that way of defining NY style, then I'd say you're within the parameter.

In your particular situation, with the temps you're working at, it appears that the 5% oil (and 2% sugar) is going a long way in encouraging faster browning, which, imo, is producing one of the best pizzas I've ever seen you make.  Yes, I do have NY style on the brain, so I'm a bit biased toward this, but if you don't decide to sell this pie on a weekly basis, I think you're making a mistake.  The preferment Lehmann dough makes a phenomenal pie, but I think this is a tiny bit better- and potentially a bit more profitable.


Scott,

I had a hard time deciding what board to put this pizza in.  I knew it contained more oil than is normally used for a NY style pizza, but I thought it turned out like a NY style pizza.

I know you and I probably didnít use the exact same formulation, flour, oven, or even mixing times etc.  My crumb really wasnít tender as you can see on the rise on the rim.  Interesting that your crumb was tender.  What formulation did you used with 5% oil? There was no oiliness in the crumb or bottom crust of the pizza I made yesterday.  Thanks for your thoughts in that you would say I was within the parameters of a NY style pizza.

Thanks also for saying you think this was my best attempt at a NY style pizza.  I know you do always have NY style pizza on the brain.   :-D

I really donít think I will try to sell the kind of pizza I made yesterday, but it was really a nice change to see how it turned out.  I really liked the pizza.  I still have many experiments I am doing on the preferment Lehmann dough and even minor changes do affect the final pizzas.  Even one variable can change many things. Yesterday I saw those changes just by mixing differently and adding a tiny bit more of IDY for the preferment Lehmann dough pizzas.

I appreciate your thoughts.  :)

Norma
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: NY Style?
« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2012, 09:32:28 AM »
Norma, I agree with Scott.  One of your best looking pies, especially the undercrust, TF, cheese, etc.  A bit more browning on the rim for me, but that's just me. 5% oil and the crust wasn't tender?  Either you miscalculated or that's proof that you can overmix/over knead a dough.  I'm sure it was no miscalculation, and 5% oil should produce a tender crust and crumb.  How chewy was your crust while the pizza was hot and after it cooled?

Norma, I'll also 2nd Scott's suggestions about dropping the Lehman pies and selling this.  However I would, at the minimum cut your mixing times by half.   What is your reasoning for mixing 19min? Yes, we can mix a dough for 20-30 min, but does it produce better results?

Again, beautiful pie.

Chau
« Last Edit: January 25, 2012, 11:39:05 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: NY Style?
« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2012, 10:13:48 AM »
I third that - it's a really good looking NY pie.

Do you notice any flavor differences attributable to the the elevated oil?

CL
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Offline norma427

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Re: NY Style?
« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2012, 12:46:03 PM »
Norma, I agree with Scott.  One of your best looking pies, especially the undercrust, TF, cheese, etc.  A bit more browning on the rim for me, but that's just me. 5% oil and the crust wasn't tender?  Either you miscalculated or that's proof that you can overmix/over knead a dough.  I'm sure it was no miscalculation, and 5% oil should produce a tender crust and crumb.  How chewy was your crust while the pizza was hot and after it cooled?

Norma, I'll also 2nd Scott's suggestions about dropping the Lehman pies and selling this.  However I would, at the minimum cut your mixing times by half.   What is your reasoning for mixing 19min? Yes, we can mix a dough for 20-30 min, but does it produce better results?

Again, beautiful pie.

Chau


Chau,

Thanks for saying you agree with Scott.  I was hoping for better browning, because I couldnít achieve the right amount of browning when working on the Luigiís thread.  The crust was tender to bite, but also a little crispy, if that makes any sense.  :-D I did measure each ingredient out carefully.  Any conclusions from me are not in yet about a long time mix. I have always wondered what a really long mix time would do to dough.  That is why I did the really long mix. I would have to do more tests on that to see where it takes me.  I wouldnít say the crust was really chewy, but had a little chew.  At least in my opinion the pizza had the right amount of chew and crisp, but that could just be my opinion. 

As I posted I do really like the preferment Lehmann dough because the pizzas turn out more artisan looking and are also good, at least in my opinion.  I also have to do many reheats on slices.  I didnít reheat any slices of the pizza I made yesterday, so I donít know how reheats would work.

Thanks for saying the pizza was beautiful.  That meant a lot coming from you.  :)

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: NY Style?
« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2012, 12:51:52 PM »
I third that - it's a really good looking NY pie.

Do you notice any flavor differences attributable to the the elevated oil?

CL

Craig,

Thanks for your vote too!  Your comment meant a lot to me also.  :)

I didnít notice any flavor differences attributable to the elevated oil.  That has me stumped too.  I though the crust had a good flavor for just a one day cold ferment.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: NY Style?
« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2012, 02:01:12 PM »
Norma,

As you may know, the DeLorenzo clone dough formulation that I came up with and that you modified was intended to produce a crust that was chewy in parts and cracker-y in parts. Hence, the relatively low hydration. I don't honestly recall where the 5% oil amount came from but that must have been there to get the chewy part of the crust. Also, I was using a very low thickness factor to help get the cracker part. I don't know if you saw the post at Reply 172 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg145168.html#msg145168, but if the information there is correct, then there would be no sugar used in the DeLorenzo dough. Watching the Steve video you referenced, it looks like some of the crispy character of a DeLorenzo pie remained.

I'm sure that I had the DeLorenzo reverse-engineering and cloning project and experience in mind when we started playing around with the Mack's clone. I think you will see that if you compare the DeLorenzo dough formulation you modified with the one given in the Mack's thread at Reply 307 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg99472.html#msg99472.

Peter

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Re: NY Style?
« Reply #15 on: January 25, 2012, 05:22:35 PM »
As I posted I do really like the preferment Lehmann dough because the pizzas turn out more artisan looking and are also good, at least in my opinion.  I also have to do many reheats on slices.  I didnít reheat any slices of the pizza I made yesterday, so I donít know how reheats would work.

If you start out with an undercrust with this much color, then a reheat is going to give you too much char, so, from a re-heating perspective, this might require some tweaks.

I think one of the toughest selling points about great NY style is that, cosmetically, to the untrained eye, it can appear pretty similar to mediocre NY style, and people, in our area, have been conditioned a bit to dismiss mediocre NY style because it's all over the place.  Your Lehmann crust does have a more unique/artisan appearance, so it might attract customers looking for something a bit different. I do believe, though, that once your customers starting eating this pizza, that the improvement in taste would be sufficient to keep bringing them back for more.

How about selling this and the Lehmann side by side a few days and seeing what kind of feedback you get?

Offline norma427

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Re: NY Style?
« Reply #16 on: January 25, 2012, 05:49:54 PM »
Norma,

As you may know, the DeLorenzo clone dough formulation that I came up with and that you modified was intended to produce a crust that was chewy in parts and cracker-y in parts. Hence, the relatively low hydration. I don't honestly recall where the 5% oil amount came from but that must have been there to get the chewy part of the crust. Also, I was using a very low thickness factor to help get the cracker part. I don't know if you saw the post at Reply 172 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg145168.html#msg145168, but if the information there is correct, then there would be no sugar used in the DeLorenzo dough. Watching the Steve video you referenced, it looks like some of the crispy character of a DeLorenzo pie remained.

I'm sure that I had the DeLorenzo reverse-engineering and cloning project and experience in mind when we started playing around with the Mack's clone. I think you will see that if you compare the DeLorenzo dough formulation you modified with the one given in the Mack's thread at Reply 307 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg99472.html#msg99472.

Peter


Peter,

I knew that DeLorenzo clone dough formulation that you came up with, and I modified a little, was intended to produce a crust that had some chew in parts and cracker-y in parts.  I saw you were using a very low thickness factor to help get the cracker part.  I didnít see the post you linked.  I see there would be no sugar in the DeLeorenzo dough. What makes DeLorenzo's pizza brown so nicely, without sugar? A part of he crispy character of the DeLorenzo pie remained in the pizza I made, but also a little chew remained.  I knew once I removed the pizza from the oven that when it was going to be cut it would be crispy and not cracker-y.  That is why I had Steve cut the pie and I took the video. Whether that was from using the sugar or a higher TF I donít know.  I wouldnít think it would be from the sugar. 

I do recall you had the DeLorenzo reverse-engineering and cloning project in mind when we started playing around with the Mackís clone.  I can see the similarities.  Do you think the higher TF you used in the Mackís clone formulation you set-forth then gave the Mackís clone the different texture?  Even after all this time I still havenít tried your formulation out for a Mackís clone.  I will try your formulation out in my next attempt for a Mackís clone.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: NY Style?
« Reply #17 on: January 25, 2012, 06:01:45 PM »
If you start out with an undercrust with this much color, then a reheat is going to give you too much char, so, from a re-heating perspective, this might require some tweaks.

I think one of the toughest selling points about great NY style is that, cosmetically, to the untrained eye, it can appear pretty similar to mediocre NY style, and people, in our area, have been conditioned a bit to dismiss mediocre NY style because it's all over the place.  Your Lehmann crust does have a more unique/artisan appearance, so it might attract customers looking for something a bit different. I do believe, though, that once your customers starting eating this pizza, that the improvement in taste would be sufficient to keep bringing them back for more.

How about selling this and the Lehmann side by side a few days and seeing what kind of feedback you get?

Scott,

When reheating any slices (preferment Lehmann dough) in the deck oven, it only takes about 20-30 seconds for a reheat to crisp-up the preferment Lehmann dough slices.  They never get charred from the reheat, just a little crisper.  Do you think a thinner slice from the pizza I made yesterday would char it such a short reheat?

All my preferment Lehmann dough pizzas donít have the big puffy rims.  That is something I have been trying for a long time to keep constant, but it is tough.  Many customers ask for the puffy rims, but some customers prefer flatter rims.

I could at least try a few more experiments to see if I can get the same results as yesterday.  Do you really think customers would prefer a pie like I made yesterday?  I am always looking to sell a pie that customers do really like.  Any other suggestions if I should do anything differently for the next attempt?

Norma
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Offline jeffereynelson

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Re: NY Style?
« Reply #18 on: January 25, 2012, 06:16:07 PM »
Norma that pizza looks stinking delicious!

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Re: NY Style?
« Reply #19 on: January 25, 2012, 06:29:23 PM »
Norma, it's really difficult to predict exactly how customers will react, and, having never been to your market, I don't know your customers like you do, but that pie you baked up, imo, has pretty vast universal appeal.

Regarding the reheat, it really depends on how crispy the crust is after sitting a while.  If the undercrust is still a bit crispy, then re-heating it will give a bit more color.  As far as undercrust color goes, I think you have just the right amount. If re-heating it gives you any more color, then I think it'll be too much.

Right now, I wouldn't make any changes- just see if you can repeat it and try re-heating a slice to see how much additional coloration you get.

I'm curious, how many pizzas are you making a day these days at the market?  Are you baking more than one pizza at a time?



 

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