Author Topic: Need some help with "punch down" and shaping please  (Read 1094 times)

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Offline censored

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Need some help with "punch down" and shaping please
« on: January 21, 2012, 10:43:48 PM »
I noticed that a lot of recipes say to "punch down" the dough after it has risen. Does this mean quite literally punch it flat? Also, any good tips or resources on how to start the initial spread? It seems like whenever I try to work the dough outwards from the center it just wants to spring back in. Thanks.

Jeff


Offline moose13

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Re: Need some help with "punch down" and shaping please
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2012, 12:02:31 AM »
Punch refers to deflating the rising dough, causing it to fall and rise again.
Usually a few fingers in the top will do the trick. Most of my dough stretching and shaping was learned from
watching videos on youtube and a lot of practice. Still not the best.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2012, 12:04:05 AM by moose13 »

Offline Lespaul20

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Re: Need some help with "punch down" and shaping please
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2012, 12:04:22 AM »
I think it depends but when I do it I usually just give the bowl a good slam on the counter top when it's required, which isn't very often.

As far a shaping, a specific technique will depend on the style but what I generally do is create the rim first then stretch the ball out from the starting in the center. Watched many videos to learn. Since I've started using recipes and techniques posted here I really haven't much issues with the dough holding it's shape.  

Offline norma427

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Re: Need some help with "punch down" and shaping please
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2012, 07:56:26 AM »
Jeff,

Some formulations do call for a punch downs, but usually they are for long room temperature fermented doughs and then the dough is balled and left to rest some.  Do you want to make regular dough that uses a straight dough method?  I mean just mixing your dough, dividing, scaling, and then balling the dough for a cold ferment.  If you want to use those methods, there is no need for a punch down in my opinion.  Maybe you did the punch down and then tried to open your dough ball.  I am not sure what you meant.  If your dough ball isnít left to recover from a punch down, it can want to spring back.

If you are interested, this is a video to watch of how to open a dough ball by Tony Gemignani.

Norma
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Offline censored

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Re: Need some help with "punch down" and shaping please
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2012, 12:19:36 PM »
Thanks for the suggestions and the video. Norma, I am using a cold ferment method, the Lehmann to be exact. Previously I had made all same day recipes, so I guess that is why I always used punch down recipes. So I guess with the Lehmann I don't need to punch down? My dough has been in the fridge overnight and no longer resembles a ball. It pretty much rose to entirely fill the container. Did I do something wrong? Thanks.

Jeff

Offline norma427

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Re: Need some help with "punch down" and shaping please
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2012, 02:35:25 PM »
Thanks for the suggestions and the video. Norma, I am using a cold ferment method, the Lehmann to be exact. Previously I had made all same day recipes, so I guess that is why I always used punch down recipes. So I guess with the Lehmann I don't need to punch down? My dough has been in the fridge overnight and no longer resembles a ball. It pretty much rose to entirely fill the container. Did I do something wrong? Thanks.

Jeff

Jeff,

There are a lot of posts on the forum about the Lehmann dough if you want to do a search.  Peter has posted many times about the Lehmann dough. 

If your dough has risen to fill the whole container and it was just an overnight ferment you must have used a lot of yeast in the Lehmann dough formulation.  How long did you want you Lehmann dough to cold ferment and how much yeast did you use in the formulation?   There also could be other variables that made your dough ferment so fast, like a higher than normal final dough temperature, or maybe a few other conditions.  How long did you want your Lehmann dough to cold ferment?  If you were using a one day dough before maybe you are using too much yeast.

Can you post the exact Lehmann dough formulation you used, so I or someone else might be able to help you? I donít think you need any punch downs in a Lehmann dough to be fermented only a few days if you have the right amount of yeast in your formulation.  Do you also have a digital scale?

This is one post from Peter about how long the Lehmann dough should last when cold fermenting at Reply 752 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg73088.html#msg73088

Norma
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Offline censored

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Re: Need some help with "punch down" and shaping please
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2012, 03:07:07 PM »
Thanks Norma for your help.

I guess I can't say I used the Lehmann exactly, I tweaked the process and ended up adding a pinch more water but I have the actual measurements.

I don't have a scale that goes out to 10ths of grams, so I rounded the best I could. I ended up with:

550g KA Bread Flour
348g Water
4g ADY
10g Salt
6g Vegtable Oil
6g Sugar

I did 300g Water and 300g Flour in a 20 minute autolyse.

I then activated the yeast in the remaining water and the sugar for 10 minutes (sorry couldn't get a water temp as thermometer was in last night's dinner).

I then added the water/yeast/sugar combo into the autolyse portion, and mixed in the remaining flour, salt and oil.

I kneaded for 6 minutes on a Kitchen Aid stand mixer on 2, then another 2 minutes on 4.

I then hand kneaded for 45 seconds and split the dough into balls and put them in the fridge. (sorry don't have a final dough temp).

That was at about 6:30 p.m. last night. This morning the dough has entirely filled the container, I believe it is still usable, but whenever I see pictures of Lehmann doughs, it always seems like they are in nice neat little rounds, whereas I just have a pyrex full of dough.

Thanks again.

Jeff

Offline norma427

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Re: Need some help with "punch down" and shaping please
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2012, 06:04:16 PM »
Jeff,

Thanks for the formulation you used and your method of preparation of your dough.  I am not good with math to be able to figure out what thickness factor you used, or donít know how many dough balls you made, or the size of the pizzas you are making.  If you can post that information, I can see if I can figure that out on the dough calculation tools.  I rely on the dough calculation tools heavily, because I am so bad at math.  It was good that you used your scale to do the measurements.  I believe your dough balls are also usable.  When are you going to make the pizzas?  I am not sure, but 4 grams of yeast for 550 grams of flour seems like a lot to me.

I recently made Lehmann  dough balls for my great- granddaughters birthday.  After a two day cold ferment you can see what the dough balls looked like when out at room temperature in this thread, http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17243.0.html and also see the formula I used for the Lehmann dough at Reply 20 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17243.msg167684.html#msg167684  I donít think that thread will help you now, but just wanted to show you what happened with my Lehmann dough balls.

Norma
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Offline censored

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Re: Need some help with "punch down" and shaping please
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2012, 07:54:31 PM »
Hey Norma,

I ended up making a new thread over at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17377.0.html to hopefully get some more feedback on my newest pie. Thanks for your help here again, and for that video, I was able to get a perfect shaping tonight! Lost a little of the form on the peel, but still turned out great. Thanks.

Jeff

Offline norma427

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Re: Need some help with "punch down" and shaping please
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2012, 09:56:21 PM »
Hey Norma,

I ended up making a new thread over at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17377.0.html to hopefully get some more feedback on my newest pie. Thanks for your help here again, and for that video, I was able to get a perfect shaping tonight! Lost a little of the form on the peel, but still turned out great. Thanks.

Jeff

Jeff,

Your welcome anytime.  Glad to hear you were able to get a perfect shaping tonight.  ;D Congrats!

Norma
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Need some help with "punch down" and shaping please
« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2012, 09:37:03 AM »
Jeff,

I agree with Norma. I think you are using too much yeast. Also, you might want to check out your finished dough temperature sometime. You might be generating too much heat in the dough, especially when you are using speed 4 for two minutes. Too much yeast and too high a finished dough temperature will usually lead to a faster fermentation and produce results such as you noted unless you have a super cold refrigerator that cools things down really fast.

Peter


 

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