NH yeast in my pizza?

[Pizza3.14]

I am trying to make a pizza using only the natural starter no commercial yeast.  After two attempts at a cold fermentation of 1,2, and 3 days which did not give me the flavor I was looking for and by the recommendation of TXCraig1 I decided to try a room temp fermentation.  I followed the Tom Lehmenn's NY Style pizza found at posts 161 and 165.  (a combination of the two)

I activated my starter by removing half and feeding it equal parts by weight warm water and KASL flour.  It warmed up and grew for about 2.5 hours till it was bubbling. 

I took 27.75g of that and added 34.19g flour and 16.42g water (@78 degrees F) to create  78.36g of preferment at 63% hydration. 
At 6:45 (almost 9 hours later) the preferment had doubled in size.

I dissolved the salt into the 70 degree water and combined that with about half of the flour with a 2 min mix
Then it rested for 5
I added the preferment, (whole, I should have broken it up) and half the remaining flour mixed for 2 min
Then rested for 5 min
I added the remaining flour and mixed for about 2 min, then the oil and mixed for an additional 1 min.  I noticed that I could feel a hard spot while a bit of hand kneading, this is why I think I should have broken up the preferment. 

I formed 2 dough balls oiled them and oiled the containers.  One was a plastic round flat bottomed bowl and the other was a plastic bag.  I flattened them down to about 6” diameter and sealed them up for their 10 hour room temp fermentation.

At the 5 hour mark in the 71 degree room not much had changed.  Some divots started on the bottom of the dough but no visible growth had occurred. 

At the ninth hour they had almost doubled.  The containers they were in allowed them to spread out so they got quite a bit wider in diameter.  The smell now though is what surprised me.  They really smell like rich well developed dough. 

One problem was constant temperature.  I have a wood stove that heats the house so the room temp varied during the night and throughout the day.  I would say that the warmest temps were towards the end of the final fermentation.  Never below 65 and never above 77, however, that is still quite a bit of difference should I try to replicate. 

Flour 100%
Water 63%
Salt 1.75%
Oil 1%
Single ball 324.65g I made 2

Preferment consisted of
Natural yeast starter 27.75g
Flour 34.19g
Water 16.42g
This gave me a preferment that was at 63% hydration.  The natural yeast starter started at 50% water 50% flour (KASL)

I gave the oven a 60 min preheat at 550 then put on the top broiler for about 2 cycles. 
I had a thin pizza stone on the bottom rack and I put another rack on the top position to finish cooking on.
 
I used Cento san Marzano tomatoes about 90g per pie
For cheese I shredded Sorrento whole milk Moz. About 2 ounces. 
I cooked them on the bottom rack for 5 min- after 3 I switched on the top broiler
Then on the top rack for 1 min- it started to burn so I put it on the bottom for another 30 sec. 
The second pie was prepared the same way- but for baking I went 6 and a half min on the bottom and 15 sec on the top. 

I think I went a little thin on the dough.  The crumb was a little lifeless and dense.  I’d say the flavor was about a 4 out of 10.  Apparently the NH yeast did not create a masterpiece.  (can't be my fault)
I need to work on a steady bake combination to get my times down and perhaps try it again with a thicker dough amount, less salt in the sauce (1.5t for the 28oz can kosher salt) Also, larger pieces of cheese, I liquefied them. 
This is a pizza with so many working pieces that I might have gotten myself in over my head but it was fun. 

Bellow is preferment

[Pizza3.14]

dough before and after room temp rise

[Pizza3.14]

Pie 1

[Pizza3.14]

Pie 2-I would appreciate any critiques, comments, or suggestions!

[Phar Lap]

Greg,

Looking good...I just think you need more underside/bottom heat.  Just let me know 

Adam

[Pizza3.14]

Adam,


Thanks for your response, yes I do need more bottom heat.  I am thinking of putting the stone up closer to the top.  Also, I have been using 2 thin stones one on top of the other.  I am not educated in the laws of thermal dynamics, but several posts have indicated that that is not the best way to go. 

I think that my next shot will be with a simple dough and just work on cooking the pie a bit quicker and evenly.  I will use one stone on the second from the top and switch to broil when I put the pizza in. 

I'm sure that this will be a learning curve when I try it, so, who wants to eat pizza?  We will have plenty. 

[buceriasdon]

Greg, If you are seeking more bottom bake, it seems counter productive to move your stone up higher. Did I miss something? I think you may be a candidate for a more conductive steel plate.
Don

[Pizza3.14]

Don,
I realize that is seems counter productive but my thought process is this.  I have been using two stones, one on top of the other, on the bottom.  I think this could be part of my lack of bottom heat.  I am in the long run looking to get a much shorter bake tome.  I think that if I switch to a single stone and move it up (because I assume I will have the pie in the oven for less time) this will allow me to get even cooking on the top and bottom. 

Does this make sense?

[Pizza3.14]

ooooh.   100 views. That explains the balloon drop.   

[Pizza3.14]

On Friday I made up 4 different pizzas that I was pretty happy with.  I went to one stone placed on the bottom rack and about 3 minutes into the bake I switched the oven to broil.  These had been in the fridge for 4 days.  This are my first pizzas with the better for bread flour and I have to say that I think I prefer KA.

[Pizza3.14]

With childcare needs and the semester starting up I will probably only post one trial a week. 

Here are some notes and pics from the pie I made last night. 

Gold Medal –better for bread flour
Mixed, 2 hour bulk room temp fermentation, balled, cold fermentation for 6 days (144 hours) re-balled 3 hours prior to bake time
Preheated oven 1 hour 20 min before baking on a ¼ “ stone on bottom rack.  Oven temp no lower than 585. 
Buffalo milk mozzarella 2.65 oz
Crushed San marzano tomatoes with salt 70g
Dough ball was 254g
Fresh chopped basil after bake.
 Cooked for 6 min 45 sec.  about 10” by 9”
It tore several times- difficult to stretch.   

Seemed very thin in the center, parts were almost see through.  When baked it was almost perfect.  Crisp center that held up sauce and cheese
Crust had nice crisp with semi airy tender crumb
Flavor of crust was present but not distinct. 
It browned nicely and became dark in a few spots.  Flavor from browning was good
The amount of sauce was where I will keep it for this size pizza.
The cheese liquefied.  I will need to add thicker pieces next time. 
Best crust to date. 

[Pizza3.14]

Now I have Italian Yeast, via NM, in my NH dough! 

I conducted the same procedures as before.  The only changes were to total size, I made a 14" pie.  This is because I bought a new 1/2" stone that is 16" as compared to my 1/4" thick 13" round stone. 

I was very happy with the taste of the dough!  Good Yeast (Ischia). If anyone is using a starter that they got from collecting local yeast and you are not happy with it I recommend a tried and true one like Ischia.  A few things happened that did not before that got me wondering. 

The bottom did not brown as I would have liked.  The cook time was 7 min with about a min directly under the broiler.  With a new stone and no sugar in the dough any suggestions on how to brown up the bottom?

The great flavor was constant but there were patches of pretty strong sourdough flavor.  Does anyone know what causes this? 

Also, about half of the crumb was perfect how I like it, wide pockets that spring right back up after pressed down.  The other half was a bit more dense, still great flavor, but more bread like.  Does anyone know how to get uniformity when it comes to this? 

Thanks to Pete-zza for the recipe and procedures and Jackie Tran for the yeast. 

pics to follow

[Pizza3.14]

1. preferment
2. Mixed dough
3. Opened dough ball

[Pizza3.14]

1. pie
2. bottom browning 
3. crumb 
4. crumb

[Pete-zza]

Greg,

As you can see from Tom Lehmann's post at the PMQ Think Tank at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=9214&p=64013&hilit=#p64011, if there is excessive acid production, that can affect the browning of the crust. Professor Calvel has also discusses this aspect in his book The Taste of Bread, an excerpt of which appears in Reply 136 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5851.msg86732/topicseen.html#msg86732. You might also take a look at Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9635.msg83546/topicseen.html#msg83546 and also Reply 155 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11700.msg111250/topicseen.html#msg111250.

With respect to the sourness you experienced, I am sure that there are many members who are far more experienced than I on this matter and may be able to help you more than I can. However, I suspect the sourness may be related to how you are managing and refreshing your starter. For example, in Reply 155 referenced above, Prof. Calvel instructs that one refresh the starter/prerferment culture before using it. No doubt there are other measures that can be taken and, in due course, I think you will overcome any problems that might be attributed to your Ischia starter and its management and maintenance.

Peter

[cosgrojo]

I don't think your recipe has any sugar in it, no?  Unless you get a baking surface that can raise the temp of your oven significantly, I think the only way to dramatically increase color is to add an ingredient that provides the color. Add a smidge of sugar, honey, or molasses (my fave). It's not Neapolitan approved... But it looks and tastes nice!

[Pizza3.14]

Pete-zza,

Thanks for your post.  I read the links.  It looks like I probably did over ferment the dough.  One thing I actually forgot to mention in the initial post was that I balled  the dough at the 7 hour mark.  That was because one of them had a bubble. 

From the other links I took that it could help the color if I used less water in the preferment and dough.  I think I will try this with the preferment.  I will add a greater portion of the flour to the starter when making the preferment. 

Also, where Tom talked about dough using all the browning sugar, converted and other wise in about 6-8 hours this means that I need to lower my room temp. (he says cold fermentation with no sugars added are good for 24)  I had my dough sitting near the wood stove probably getting between 70-80 degrees throughout the 10 hour fermentation. 

I don't want to add sugar for taste, really only for color if I need to.  So I think I will try these things first. 

I plan to bring the preferment hydration level down to 50% it is currently at 63.
I also plan on setting up a cooler type situation where I can keep the temp set at closer to 60 or 65 based on others posts that seems to be a reasonable number.  Either that or simply shorten the time allowed to ferment before baking.  perhaps 6 hours, I only guess this because the bubble occurred in the 7th hour. 

The starter was well fed before I used it to make the starter, about 10 minutes before I made the preferment it had doubled in almost exactly 2 hours after feeding. 

I had thought that the pockets of strong sourdough could have been a distribution issue from preferment to dough.  not sure. 

one thing I just thought of is that I used KABF, but it was the organic kind.  I noticed that it is not fortified like the regular bread flour but it still has malted barley flour in it.  Could this have changed things from your original dough? 

let me know if you think I am changing things too drastically. 

Greg

[Pizza3.14]

Cosgrojo,

Thanks for your response.

In the links that Pete-zza listed it talked about how adding honey rather than sugar will aid in browning.
I think that this might help I'm just trying to see if I can get good results without it first. 

[Pizza3.14]

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