Author Topic: 00 flour question  (Read 7284 times)

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Offline moose13

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00 flour question
« on: February 01, 2012, 03:21:50 PM »
I was thinking about ordering some 00 caputo online and read somewhere that it will not make much difference unless you can achieve the higher baking temps. Is this true? All i have is a stone and a conventional oven (500 degrees). Is it worth getting this flour without a high temp oven?


Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: 00 flour question
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2012, 03:42:14 PM »
What is your objective? Specifically, what is there about your current recipe/method that you are hoping to improve by using Caputo 00?

It has been milled and blended for high-temp applications, but that doesn't preclude its use for other things. In general, it will take longer to brown than other flours @ 500F, so browning agents such as sugars are often added to the dough.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2012, 07:17:17 PM by Bill/SFNM »

Offline moose13

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Re: 00 flour question
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2012, 06:53:05 PM »
What is your objective? Specifically, what is there about your current recipe/method that you are hoping to improve by using Caputo 00?

It has been milled and blended for high-temp applications, but that doesn't preclude it's use for other things. In general, it will take longer to brown than other flours @ 500F, so browning agents such as sugars are often added to the dough.

I don't know, maybe try a neapolitan style. But without the necessary heat is it possible or even worth it?
Can it be used for NY style or any other crust with good results?

Offline norma427

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Re: 00 flour question
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2012, 07:05:20 PM »
moose13,

In my limited experiments, it is hard to make a Caputo flour pizza, if there isnít enough heat.  This is one thread I am working on now, that I am trying Caputo with sugar, or other lower protein flours, and other ingredients to help the crust brown better.  There are others links on the thread to show where other members have tried Caputo pies in a home oven.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17128.0.html

Maybe someone else can help you better if you want to try Caputo in a regular oven.

Norma
« Last Edit: February 01, 2012, 07:44:10 PM by norma427 »
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Offline Jet_deck

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Re: 00 flour question
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2012, 09:10:09 PM »
Moose, I will say that you would be more happy with AP flour or something like KABF in the home oven.  In my experiments the 00 flour does not give superior results until you get above 850.  There are a ton of pizzas to be cooked in the unmodified home oven that will produce excellent results.  None of which use 00 flour.

Just my $.02 ;)
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: 00 flour question
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2012, 09:37:20 PM »
I love Caputo 00 now that I bake at 900F. Before I got my WFO, I baked in a modified gas grill at 750F. Even at 750F, I got better results with KAAP.

Craig
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Offline moose13

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Re: 00 flour question
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2012, 04:09:52 PM »
Well good enough, i won't worry about it till i get a WFO. Thanks!

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: 00 flour question
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2012, 09:01:57 PM »
hmmm, I must be odd man out.  ;D  I seem to get pretty good results with it blending it with 25% HG or BF and baked in my LBE (little black egg) baked 3-4min, but it has been awhile since I have done that combination and I don't recall trying it in the home oven. 

My home oven is out of commission at the moment, but as soon as it gets repaired, I'll try to remember to do a caputo pie baked in the 3-4 minute range. 

Michael from Israel, recently made a pie that he was really happy with using 75% caputo 00 with 25% BF in the home oven.
reply #202 - #207
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12548.msg170286.html#msg170286

From #203, Michael says..."75%caputo in my 270cl oven? I will hope it would be ok. "
Then it sounds like he changed his mind in reply #209.

Chau

Offline Jet_deck

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Re: 00 flour question
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2012, 09:42:09 PM »
.....hmmm, I must be odd man out.  ;D  Chau


Chau, he is baking in the unmodified home oven.  Not at LBE temps.  :)  He will succeed with AP and BF before the 00 in this situation.
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: 00 flour question
« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2012, 10:00:35 PM »
Chau, he is baking in the unmodified home oven.  Not at LBE temps.  :)  He will succeed with AP and BF before the 00 in this situation.

I know he is Gene, check out Michael's pizza made in an unmodifed home oven.  Even in a unmodified home oven, if he has a broiler, he can get bake times in the 3-4 minutes easily by varying the baking distance to the broiler.  Give me a few weeks to get my home oven working again.  I will show that it can be done.  Again, not saying what is better or worse.  Just saying it's possible to make a good crust that is not tough in the 3-4 min bake using at least 75% 00.  Have been saying it for a long time now.  I know no one mentioned "tough", but this is just another one of those myths that keeps getting perpetuated.   Not saying it will be easy, but doable...

Moose, Neapolitan maybe a style that is best left to the wfo or something with high even heat as others are saying, but caputo pizzeria 00 can be blended with BF or HG to make what I call hybrid style pies.  Pies that share both NP and NY style qualities baked in the 3-4min range.  3-4 min bakes are possible in the home oven if you have a broiler.  Look at Michaels results.  That is a hybrid pie.

Once I have my home oven fix, I will even attempt a 100% caputo pie in the home oven WITH GOOD to great results.  Not talking about a tough piece of cr@p pie either.  Success or failure, I will post about it.

Chau


Offline Jet_deck

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Re: 00 flour question
« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2012, 11:00:39 PM »
I never doubt your results. 

I_ do doubt the ability of ythe general publc to to replicate your resus.
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Offline pizza dr

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Re: 00 flour question
« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2012, 11:46:49 AM »
+1

Offline Tscarborough

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Re: 00 flour question
« Reply #12 on: February 03, 2012, 11:51:52 AM »
I have used it in the kitchen oven, both full strength and blended.  Other than adding some sugar for browning, it worked like regular, not worth the extra money though.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: 00 flour question
« Reply #13 on: February 03, 2012, 02:22:40 PM »
The 75% 00 flour and 25% high-gluten flour combination is what Dom DeMarco has used for years at DiFara's. In his case, it is by volume, not weight. He has used different suppliers of the flours over time but he has used the Caputo 00 flour in combination with All Trumps high-gluten flour.

Peter

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: 00 flour question
« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2012, 10:20:00 PM »
So I wanted to update this thread for prosperity sake.  :-D  Since we last discussed whether caputo will yield soft results in a 3-4min bake time (regardless of the oven -> heat is heat), Michael (from Isreal) has been able to replicate his results with caputo red bag (Chef's flour) and the AP blue bag several times over.  He is now "claiming" better and better results with each bake and also extending his fermentation times from 8-12h to a 24hour dough.  If you look at his pictures, particulary at the flop of the slice, no doubt he is getting soft results.

As for me, my home oven is finally fixed so I will have a chance to try to replicate his results.  In the meantime, I did a bake today in the wfo with 100% caputo pizzeria flour at a floor temp of 725F and zero coals or live fire in the wfo.  It was from the residual heat after I had removed the coals from the bake.  I baked this pizza at around 3min plus.  Sorry I did not time the bake exactly but I can tell you 725F does not yield a sub 2 minute bake.  The results of this old CF caputo 00 dough baked at low(er) temps yielded a better crust than the 80 sec bake done with the same dough.

So this dough was an experimental dough made with IDY and fermented at room temps (75F) for 8 hours and then CF for about 27h.  The hydration is 65% but again, keep in mind the arid climate I live in.  In my estimation this is equivalent to a 61% hydration dough at sea level.  At any riate, I baked one dough ball at 850F for around 80s and did not like the crust.  The pizza looked nice, but the crumb was dense and bread like.  I had a 2nd dough ball and b/c the dough was really slack, I decided to reball and let it sit under the lights.  I had forgotten about this doughball untl after I had baked up 2 other NP doughs (different batch).  I had cleared all the coals out and let the oven temps come down a bit when I saw this doughball under the lights.  I decided to toss him into the wfo with a hearth temp of 725F and was surprised by the result.  Even better crust and crumb than the previous high temp bake.  Because of this find I will be actively persuing  these 00 pies at lower temps.   In the past I had only been using 75 00/ 25 HG blend but I will definitely be playing around with 100% 00 at lower temps.

Here is the 00 pie at lower temps.  The slice stood straight out and had a wonderful airy crisp to the bottom and crust.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2012, 10:29:30 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: 00 flour question
« Reply #15 on: March 15, 2012, 10:24:38 PM »
Here are some close up shots of the crumb.  Someone please tell me that looks dry or chewy.

Last picture is the pie made with the same old dough and baked at high temps.  Looks nice but it wasn't as good texturally. It was tougher...yes it was.  Presumably b/c not enough of the moisture was baked out.  Also likely due to the weaker gluten matrix from the long fermentation.  Weaker doughs relatively speaking will usually yield a doughier product, while a stronger gluten matrix will give a more aerated and lighter crumb. 

Offline scott123

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Re: 00 flour question
« Reply #16 on: March 16, 2012, 05:43:31 AM »
Chau, I've talked to John Conklin about this in the past.  Basically if you take 00 dough and extend the fermentation clock, you 'New Yorkify' it- more residual sugar, better browning, greater protein breakdown, softer crumb. With your increased water activity (higher hydration + elevation), your 35 hour dough is showing a lot of signs of advanced enzyme activity.

I'm not saying it's bad- it looks amazing, but it's not the usual 00 error of a traditional Neapolitan 00 dough baked for 3 minutes.

Don't get me wrong, you've pretty much won  ;D 5 months, ago, my blanket statement was "00 flour doughs are guaranteed to be tough with anything longer than a 2 minute bake."  After our talks and your experimentation, I decided to fall back to "00 flour doughs are guaranteed to be tough with a 3 minute bake," and now, after seeing this, I'm retreating to "Traditionally fermented 00 flour Neapolitan doughs are guaranteed to be tough with 3 minute bakes."

I'm kind of hanging on by a thread here, but I won't give up without a fight  ;D

Offline David Deas

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Re: 00 flour question
« Reply #17 on: March 16, 2012, 09:19:27 PM »
Here are some close up shots of the crumb.  Someone please tell me that looks dry or chewy.

Last picture is the pie made with the same old dough and baked at high temps.  Looks nice but it wasn't as good texturally. It was tougher...yes it was.  Presumably b/c not enough of the moisture was baked out.  Also likely due to the weaker gluten matrix from the long fermentation.  Weaker doughs relatively speaking will usually yield a doughier product, while a stronger gluten matrix will give a more aerated and lighter crumb.  

It is, in actuality, difficult to get an ideal pizza using ultra fast bake times.  I know that there are plenty of folks who will say that high heat masks mistakes but the truth is that it can go either way.

You talk about the pizza being bready.  Neapolitan pizza is often described as bready.  That is how Varasano described it on his pilgrimage as well.  But the crumb is either light or dense, and this is the key difference.  If you look at Di Michele on a good day, fast bake times and all, their pizza texture as you tear into it is almost like plain old sliced bread from the grocery store.  The pizza is mostly just air.  And I think that's what you're going for.  Rather than shying away from the dreaded bready texture, we have to try instead and target the right type of bready texture.

(A New York style pizza, OTOH, I would never describe as being any type of bready.  Nor would I describe your typical American pie as being bready.)

Out in Atlanta there is a place called Double Zero that does Neapolitan pizzas which I would describe as bready as well.  But it's the wrong type of bready; dense and tough as opposed to the pizza being made mostly of air.  Their bake times are all identical (ultra fast).

I agree with you about the importance of having a strong gluten matrix.  You need that in order to avoid the pizza being too dense.  But when working with high temps you often sear that outside too quickly, locking it in place and preventing further expansion of the dough during cooking.  So it can be a real pain sometimes.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2012, 09:43:59 PM by David Deas »

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: 00 flour question
« Reply #18 on: March 16, 2012, 11:23:24 PM »
Great response David.   I myself have only very recently use the term "bready" to describe a heavy or dense textured crust.   But I absolutely agree with you in that bready may not be an accurate description as there are so many different kinds of breads with so many different textures. 

I absolutely love a light texture bread or pastry.  Take a good croissant that is airy and melts in the mouth.  Or a really great and light baguette.  That to me is good bread, so if I can describe my ideal texture for pizza crust it would be the same.  Like a good light bread.  So in this sense, bready can be good thing.

When members describe a crust as bready, I think they are referring to the dense sourdough types of breads.  And a crust doesn't even have to be that dense for me to say that it is on the bready side.  It's just not light and airy.

Yes, I agree with you that a typical NY slice I would not say it is like bread in any way for the most part, BUT i have had a NY crust recently that was bready.  The crumb was tight celled and it was on the bready side.  Although I have also had different breads and pizza crust that have had a tight celled crumb (not open) that were also light in texture, so a tight celled or dense "looking" crumb isn't always heavy either.  And while we are talking about textures, it can be rather subjective as well, so this further complicates the task of describing ideal textures.  After all, what is bready to me may not be bready to someone else. 

You make a good point about high heat and fast bakes going either way.  My example above is one of the first and few that I have seen that on, so it definitely holds true there.  I have only typically seen it go one way where by a fast bake will mask toughness in the dough, just the same way a warm crust will mask toughness that is apparent when the crust cools. 

About having a strong gluten matrix, I was using that as an general example to discuss the differences between a weak and strong matrix.  Truth be told, I am more of a subscriber to this nebulous idea of balance in the gluten matrix.  Not too weak, but also not too strong.  Too strong and it's impossible to open the dough without risk of tearing and we end up with too much crust.  We can see this in the first pie in the above example. B/c I had reballed it and built in extra strength it was harder to open and thus I ended up with a smaller pizza and a bigger cornice.  So by reballing, I restore the balance of the gluten strength back into a well fermented and well digested dough.  I used IDY, so there were no obvious acids that I could taste, so I would say the softening effect is mostly or all enzyme activity related.  Acids on the other hand, tend to toughen up the crumb and give a more dryness to the texture. 

I am not sure I agree about high heat searing and locking in spring or moisture.  I mean, I may agree, but from what I have seen oven spring in the crust is more so affected by the amount of water in the dough, balanced with sufficient gluten strength, sufficient amount of yeast in the dough, and high heat.  When I make the dough properly, even baking at 950F+ produces great oven spring.  I have yet to note that the high heat is a limiting factor.  But if the gluten strength is not there, as in the above example, high heat or high moisture content will not cause that explosion in the crust. 

On the other hand, if you have moisture in the dough, proper gluten strength, enough yeast in the dough, even a lower temperature will cause great oven spring.  We see this in the pie that was baked at 725F compared to 850F.  Take a loaf of bread as another example.  Baked initially at a hearth temp of 500F, a moist, well developed and well yeasted loaf will more than double it's size in the oven.  Oven spring happens so quickly in a very high heat environment that a dough will often reach it's maximal spring before it will be set. 

Come to think of it, I have seen the very opposite, that is lower oven heat will prevent maximal spring and cause the crust to set.  I see this in the wfo when baking NY style pies at lower temps of 600-650F.  Because I have the fire or heat source to one side, the crust that is closest to the coals (about 2" away) will spring up higher than the opposite side (closer to the wall).  I typically have to turn the pie as soon as I can (or as soon as the bottom crust sets enough to turn the pie without tearing a hole) to even out the spring on the other side before it sets from the heat surround the pie.  An extreme example of this is if I bake a NY pie at these temps and not turn it at all for the entirety of the bake.  You will definitely see a lopsided crust and difference in oven spring due to heat alone.

I also see this very same effect in my LBE where the heat source is coming up from the back and over the pie.   By the time I can turn the pie, the side furthest from the heat source never gets the same amount of oven spring.  You can see this in many of my LBE and MBE pies.

reply #365
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11126.360.html

reply #140 in the LBE
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13036.140.html

Chau

Offline David Deas

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Re: 00 flour question
« Reply #19 on: March 18, 2012, 10:14:43 PM »
You know.  Sometimes I do wonder who came up with all these high temperature, 90 second bake time rules to begin with.  Was Raffaele Esposito really racing to hit 60 seconds for the Queen?  That's very hard for me to imagine.  I can't even fathom anything like that being important to him.  Communal ovens didn't burn that hot so what was the average peasant doing when he wanted to fix peasant food?  Did he have to call in the peasant chef?

Esposito didn't have any San Marzano tomatoes either.  Those are quite a very recent, very modern invention.  He also certainly didn't have any highly refined, unmalted 00 flour to make dough out of.  His pizza, as most all bread back then, would have been whole wheat by today's standards.  Although modern Neapolitan pizza heads claim to be classic and genuinely authentic in some real historical sense, about the only thing modern Neapolitan pizza has in common with the original stuff is the buffalo mozzarella.  Even sourdough crust is practically extinct.  Yet all these requirements have somehow found their way into what we think of as 'real' or as 'doing it right'.

Stringent, hyper fast bake times?  Was that an ingredient just the same as it is today?  I'd be willing to bet not (especislly since whole wheat flour apparently doesn't hold up too well at 1000 degrees).  I've not seen any credible historical references to this, and it is not unusual to see modern Neapolitan pizza places using two minute bake times.  Varasano has timed Mangerei at beyond two minutes in the past, but I'm not about to walk in and tell Anthony that he's not making *real* Neapolitan pizza.

Bit of a tangent.  Yes.  I know.  But sometimes I ponder these things.  Many people have found that better pizzas come from lower temperature bakes.  What I can tell you from my experience is that the toughness of 00 flour is most directly tied to the degree of oven spring.  Regardless of the temperatures used, if your spring is below a certain amount you will get a tough crust once it cools.

« Last Edit: March 18, 2012, 10:56:38 PM by David Deas »