00 flour question

[Jackie Tran]

Excellent points David.  I too wonder what has remain true to NP pizza versus what has changed with time.  No doubt, there has been change over time.  I can only speculate that the original NP pizzas were more bread than pizza or more bread like in nature and sold in the market meant for food on the go rather than sitting down with a fork and knife.  But I know so very little about this style of pizza.  

You also make a very good point about the toughness tied to the oven spring.  And I would also include more specifically the condition of the dough at bake time along with a proper bake, within a wide range of temperatures.  In my limited experience in making various styles of pizza, using numerous different types and brands of flours, hydration ratios, different yeasts, kneading techniques & methods and extent of fermentation, I have also correlated different textures in the end crust with over spring and degree of fermentation.   And I would have to agree, that is for the most part not dependent on temperature.  It is to a certain degree, but there are many other factors that can affect the end texture both independently and collectively as a whole.

I have experience very very light and airy textures from a 60sec bake all the way to a 8-10min baked pizza and even a 50m baked loaf of bread, regardless of type of flours and oven temperatures.  It's all in the balance of the dough versus the heat of the oven.   The specific dough and amount of heat have to be made for another.   It is the marriage of the two that brings about optimal texture.  

This idea that caputo 00 pizzeria flour makes a tough crust at lower temps is a ridiculous notion to me.  It does, if the dough is made to sing at a 60 second bake and you bake it out to 3 mins.  However, if you make the dough to sing at 3 or 5 or 10m, and bake it accordingly, it will sing for you.   I have seen this in several pizza bakes including making a loaf of bread with 00 flour.  If I can cook it 40-50m and it still has a tender crumb, then the notion that 00 flour makes for a tough crust beyond a 90 second bake can not be true I say.  In theory, I should be able to take that same 00  bread dough and make pizza with it and have a great crust in the 4-5min realm.  

But when correlating oven spring with end textures, we also have to consider how the gluten is develop and to what extent.  You can have a very strong gluten matrix from over development of the dough (relative to protein content, water, etc), get great oven spring, and end up with a tough crumb, or shoe leather.  When I started, I did this all the time.   I abused the dough by slapping it around and all I got was toughness in the end product along with great oven spring.

I found that out here...
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11015.40.html

I was upping my hydrations up to near 80% for AP flour and still getting dry tough crumbs.  Why?  I was over kneading and not developing the gluten slowly and properly.  Great oven spring, strong gluten matrix (too strong), open looking crumb, but dry crumb.  So spring can equate to proper texture but not always, only if the gluten is properly developed and then coupled with a proper bake.  

Chau

[Jackie Tran]

Chau, I've talked to John Conklin about this in the past.  Basically if you take 00 dough and extend the fermentation clock, you 'New Yorkify' it- more residual sugar, better browning, greater protein breakdown, softer crumb. With your increased water activity (higher hydration + elevation), your 35 hour dough is showing a lot of signs of advanced enzyme activity.

I'm not saying it's bad- it looks amazing, but it's not the usual 00 error of a traditional Neapolitan 00 dough baked for 3 minutes.

Don't get me wrong, you've pretty much won  5 months, ago, my blanket statement was "00 flour doughs are guaranteed to be tough with anything longer than a 2 minute bake."  After our talks and your experimentation, I decided to fall back to "00 flour doughs are guaranteed to be tough with a 3 minute bake," and now, after seeing this, I'm retreating to "Traditionally fermented 00 flour Neapolitan doughs are guaranteed to be tough with 3 minute bakes."

I'm kind of hanging on by a thread here, but I won't give up without a fight 

Scott, you may be right about the degree of fermentation having an effect here.  I will do some more test and let you know.  In the meantime, while I haven't made a young (< 8 hour room temp 00 dough...that I can recall anyway), I know I have made a few 4 hour hybrid doughs (75% caputo pizzeria 00, 25% HG) that yielded in an ultra light tender crumb and they were baked in the 3+ minute realm. 

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12538.20.html

Same thread, reply #98
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12538.80.html

Do these count or would you disqualify them because of the HG flour?  And if so, how would HG flour aid in tenderization of such a young caputo dough?  Would it not in the minds of most ppl lead to a toughening effect rather than a tenderizing effect?

David, also in the first link, I also talked about how the MBE/LBE gives a lopsided crust, ie heat affecting oven spring rather than locking it in.  This is just another example where I posted about this phenomenon.

Chau
 

[David Deas]

About Caputo 00 flour.

I would never *recommend* 00 flour for baking at anything lower than about 800 - 900 degrees.  The reasons are primarily two.  

One, the flour is expensive.  It is not worth shelling out the extra hard earned cash for a job that can be performed equally well by KAAP.  Exposed to 1000 degrees, the KAAP flour yields something a little tougher than the 00 would.  But that's just about where the disadvantages end.

Two, 00 flour does tend to yield a little bit tougher crumb at lower temperatures than your routine American flour.  The crumb can still be plenty tender enough as you've detailed in previous posts.  But I can outperform 00 flour using KAAP or a mixture of KAAP/KABF and 00 flour at lower temperatures.  

(I agree, in fact, with what Varasano had to say; for a 3 minute pie most people are going to prefer the KABF/00 mixture.  I have found the same thing personally)

While you have those folks who believe that 00 flour is worthless for anything other than Neapolitan pizza, you also have those folks who believe it is simply the best flour in the world no matter the application.  I fall somewhere in the middle.  While it can be used successfully in any bread making application, I do not think it is simply the world's best flour irregardless of what it is used it for.

[Bill 001]

About Caputo 00 flour.

I would never *recommend* 00 flour for baking at anything lower than about 800 - 900 degrees.  The reasons are primarily two.  

One, the flour is expensive.

I bought my last Caputo Pizzeria flour for $52.80 for 55 #.  Equals $0.96 per #.
KABF $5.89 for 5 # locally.  Equals $1.18 per #.  KAAP same price.
So much for "the flour is expensive". 

About Caputo 00 flour.

I would never *recommend* 00 flour for baking at anything lower than about 800 - 900 degrees.  The reasons are primarily two. 


Two, 00 flour does tend to yield a little bit tougher crumb at lower temperatures than your routine American flour.  The crumb can still be plenty tender enough as you've detailed in previous posts.  But I can outperform 00 flour using KAAP or a mixture of KAAP/KABF and 00 flour at lower temperatures. 

After I made pizza the first time using 100% Caputo flour I threw out the KABF I had been using.  I am temperature challenged since I have only a conventional oven with a max. temp. of 500 f.  I do the best I can with what I have.  All I know is that I got much better results with Caputo flour.

I also found a good Ciabatta Bread recipe but that's for a different forum.

[Tscarborough]

Bill you can not compare the price of a 50# bag Vs a 5# bag. 

[Tscarborough]

I pay 5 bucks for 2.2 pound bag of Caputo, 3.18 per 5# of KABF and only 17 bucks for 50# of All Trumps.  None of those are really relative to each other, since they are different volumes and also different type stores.

[shuboyje]

Holy cow.  I pay $2.99 for the small bags and thought the $36 I paid for the big bad of blue was high, guess I am in caputo paradise compared to Texas, lol.

[David Deas]

I bought my last Caputo Pizzeria flour for $52.80 for 55 #.  Equals $0.96 per #.
KABF $5.89 for 5 # locally.  Equals $1.18 per #.  KAAP same price.
So much for "the flour is expensive". 

After I made pizza the first time using 100% Caputo flour I threw out the KABF I had been using.  I am temperature challenged since I have only a conventional oven with a max. temp. of 500 f.  I do the best I can with what I have.  All I know is that I got much better results with Caputo flour.

I also found a good Ciabatta Bread recipe but that's for a different forum.

I stopped reading after your price analysis.

[David Deas]

I pay 5 bucks for 2.2 pound bag of Caputo, 3.18 per 5# of KABF and only 17 bucks for 50# of All Trumps.  None of those are really relative to each other, since they are different volumes and also different type stores.

I pay $5.50 per 2.2 pound bag of Caputo.  

Even KA is cheap compared to that, irregardless of the bag size.  That is, of course, until KA slaps the "organic" label on it.  Then it can start to get out of hand.

[Jackie Tran]

Two, 00 flour does tend to yield a little bit tougher crumb at lower temperatures than your routine American flour.  The crumb can still be plenty tender enough as you've detailed in previous posts.  But I can outperform 00 flour using KAAP or a mixture of KAAP/KABF and 00 flour at lower temperatures.  

(I agree, in fact, with what Varasano had to say; for a 3 minute pie most people are going to prefer the KABF/00 mixture.  I have found the same thing personally)

While you have those folks who believe that 00 flour is worthless for anything other than Neapolitan pizza, you also have those folks who believe it is simply the best flour in the world no matter the application.  I fall somewhere in the middle.  While it can be used successfully in any bread making application, I do not think it is simply the world's best flour irregardless of what it is used it for.

Interesting David.   When you say you can outperform 00 using KAAP or a blend of KAAP/KABF (and 00?) at lower temps, can you clarify how or in what way the KA flours are better?  Are the results more tender, better texture to the crust and/or crumb, better flavor, or just overall generally better.  Also about how many times have you seen this phenomenon?  Are you treating both doughs with the same routine and relatively same or similar hydrations or are you going by feel to achieve a similar feeling dough?

Also you are referring to caputo pizzeria 00 flour correct?

I like you, am not for or against caputo 00 flour and have yet to do enough tests with caputo versus other flours in various different applications to have form an opinion about caputo either way, so I'm always interested in other's experiences.   I would like to learn more about it's true potential though and in what window of fermentation and baking temps it really shines.   I know we have some really experience users on the board who are big fans of caputo pizzeria 00 flour, but I have always wonder how many folks are simply using it b/c everyone else is using it.  No doubt that part or even much of caputo's success is due to their marketing.  

I will say that there are 2 instances where I compared caputo directly against another flour and the results are as follows.... (links can be provided if needed)

Caputo vs Con Agra Mill's BF in a high heat fast bake (900F+).   Caputo clearly won.  BF at this temp was gummier.  I'll have to do more test to veryify that it wasn't something particular about the method that could have skewed the results.

Caputo/Con Agra HG (75/25) vs Con Agra HG/Caputo (75/25) in a 3min bake.  The dough with the 75% caputo won this round as well.  It was lighter and had a more pleasing texture although both pies were excellent.

Chau

[TXCraig1]

I was always very happy with KAAP when baking at 750F. I can't really say it was better than Caputo Pizzeria, but it certainly performed every bit as well for me. It was just as tender, I don't remember noting any meaningful flavor differences, and it probably helped with browning and hitting a ~2:00 - 2:30 bake.

CL

[Bill 001]

I was thinking about ordering some 00 caputo online and read somewhere that it will not make much difference unless you can achieve the higher baking temps. Is this true?

I did NOT find it necessary to have the higher baking temps to get a better pizza crust.  I was using KABF prior to getting the Caputo Pizzeria flour.  After making my first pizza using Caputo, I threw out the KABF which I had left.

All i have is a stone and a conventional oven (500 degrees).

That is all I have.

Is it worth getting this flour without a high temp oven?

That is something you must decide for yourself.  For me, the answer is YES! 

Rather then order off the internet, scout around and see if you have a Shamrock Foods (they are the Caputo distributor in your area) warehouse around.  I know there is one in Denver.  Call the Denver operation and see if they have a location closer to where you live that serves walkins. 

[Jackie Tran]

UPDATE - I finally was able to do a low temp test (well relatively low anyway at 725F) with caputo pizzeria 00 flour in my wfo today.  So the challenge is, can I make a same day dough using 100% caputo pizzeria 00 flour, bake it for 3-4min, and get a good result?  I have had several conversations with multiple members, and the answer I kept getting is NO, it won't work.  You will get a tough result.  When I tell them that I have made plenty of pizzas with a caputo blend of 75%, I was told that I was getting those results b/c of the blend.  Without blending it would be tough.  Then I got a great result with a long fermented dough, and Scott123 wanted to know if I could do it with a same day dough. 

My contention is that, (in theory at least) it is possible.  All one would have to do is make some adjustments to the dough.  Adjust the hydration to accomdate for a longer bake.  Adjust kneading or the way the dough is developed to accomodate for gluten structure and tenderness.  

For this test, I made two 6 hour same day doughs, one with IDY and another with a starter just to see the difference.   These were both high hydration doughs at ~70%.  But do keep in mind that I live at high altitudes in a dry climate with low humidity levels.

1st pie is the IDY pie.  Here is the video of pie #1 baking at around 750F or so with a live fire.  I wasn't able to show the exact time it took to bake b/c I was baking and filming by myself.  I did time this bake at 3 min and 50 sec.  

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjC61TODOU0" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjC61TODOU0</a>

Here is the finished pizza.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VyzN0Aiabs&amp;feature=channel" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VyzN0Aiabs&amp;feature=channel</a>

Here is pizza #2, made with starter.  In the video I say that is IDY, but I was confused here, it was with 25% starter.  Everything else about the dough was the same.  This one turned out even better IMO.  Baked in 3m and 40s.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0foJ8OSHOo&amp;feature=channel" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0foJ8OSHOo&amp;feature=channel</a>

Below is a picture of the crumb from pie #2 (starter pie) after it had cooled, maybe 10 minutes later.  Slightly tougher than fresh from the oven as with any cooled crust and crumb but it was still rather tender.  

[Jackie Tran]

And just for discussion sake, here are pies made with the same dough baked at a higher temp 800-825F on the floor.  Bake time was right around 2 min and 30 sec.

Look at the crumb on here.  Though it was light and tender, it was slightly breadier than the longer baked pies.  Why?  I'm thinking less moisture was baked out (or more moisture retained).  I have seen the same phenomenon in bread making.   So for this particular dough at this particular hydration and with it's specific gluten development, this dough of mine benefitted from the longer bake.   For this test today, I much preferred the longer baked pies.  So for my taste, we have an instance here where a longer bake 3m40s was BETTER than a 2m30s bake using Caputo pizzeria 00 flour.  

Here is the margherita.  A good NP pie but very different from the above pies.  Note the tenderness of the center when I tear the pizza.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FO6He7kfslc&amp;feature=channel" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FO6He7kfslc&amp;feature=channel</a>

Comments and questions appreciated. 

[David Deas]

Fantastic job.  I'd forgotten all about this thread.

I'll submit a full, more in depth post later.  Although Neapolitans invented pizza, sometimes I wonder whether New Yorkers (lower temps, longer bakes, bit less of a bread-like texture) are the ones who perfected it.

[dellavecchia]

Pretty masterful Chau. It goes to show that when you have an understanding of the specific flour specs, you can basically get it to perform as needed. That takes a lot of skill, which is much harder than just authoritatively saying you can't/shouldn't use Caputo for low temp bakes.

The reason most people get a tough crumb from Caputo at low temps is because they do not adjust the workflow to the needs of the flour like you did. Caputo makes many different flours, and Italian flour in general is much more varied in scope than the sea of all-purpose that we find in the supermarket. I have even seen flour specific to making Panettone in Italian catalogues. Caputo pizzeria was conceived in Italy, by Italians, specifically for pizzerias making Neapolitan pizza. There is a big picture of a NP pie on the front of the 50lb commercial bag. It is of no wonder why it works well at high temps for NP pies, and not as easily used in other applications without adjustment. Dropping it in a NY cold fermented workflow will guarantee different results.

And finally, "00" refers to ash content and fineness of grind. So a 00 flour can have widely different protein, wheat type and wheat quality. KA makes a 00, and Caputo makes a number of them, for example. They are not interchangeable.

John

[Jackie Tran]

Thanks David and John.  TBH John, I wish I understood or knew more about flour and flour specs.  I suppose it's just a matter of sitting down and reading.  Most of my results have come by way of practice, taking note, making adjustments, and just plain trial and error.

I have used mostly flour that is available locally and a few specialty flours like caputo pizzeria and now Guisto's.
That is a good point that you make about 00 being in reference to ash content and the size of the grind.  I think for most of us who are unaware like me, we are misusing the label 00 to designated caputo pizzeria flour.  It's just easier to say. 

But I agree that not all flours are comparable for the same task let alone for different tasks.   I think technique can, to some degree, make up for the short comings of lower quality flours.  But in the end, I think both technique couple with the right high quality flour will yield the bet results. 

I haven't made up my mind about caputo pizzeria flour yet, whether it is the best flour for pizza or not.  It use to irk me quite a bit to hear ppl claim that it is indeed the best pizza flour.  I often wondered how many making those claims really spent time testing different flours against caputo.  I actually wanted to prove that it wasn't the best, hoping I could find a local flour to outperform caputo pizzeria flour because it is double the price compared to local flours.  So far I haven't been successful in my attempt but have noted that it does indeed make a better pizza crust at lower and higher temps.  I will continue to do more testing though.

[Tscarborough]

I like the way it works e' mano, but it is not my favorite for the oven, WFO or not.  The AT bromated is my favorite now.

[David Deas]

The prime characteristics of Caputo 00 flour in relation to your typical American flour are high quality gluten, low ash content, low level of damaged starch and lower enzyme activity.  Most of its behavior can be explained according to those relative physical attributes.

[scott123]

Alright, I give in  It would be nice to see these experiments recreated at lower altitudes, but comparing your 3-4 minute 00 crumb to your 3-4 HG crumbs, they seem comparably tender, so that's enough for me.

I will, from this point forward, no longer say that 00 has a propensity towards toughness with longer bakes.

Just to be clear, though, from a cultural perspective, 00 in NY style pizza is inauthentic, so, for those striving for 3-4 NY style bakes, I will continue to steer them towards bromated HG flours.  I also feel that bromated HG is inauthentic in Neapolitan as well, so I'll continue to dissuade aspiring pizzaiolo's along those same cultural lines (along with a larger unburnt window with unmalted flour).

But that's obviously not being argued here.  What is being argued- 00 tenderness with longer bakes- on that issue, I have been incorrect.