Cold retard sourdough first or last?

[johnnydoubleu]

I still haven't really figured out when the ideal time is to cold retard a dough made with sourdough. Should I let the dough get started for a few hours before retarding it or should I retard it after bulk fermentation or for final proofing? Room temp always gets me good results but if I retard the sourdough, reviving it and timing everything gets difficult and the results are less consistent as a result. I have experimented quite a bit but I don't feel like know yet what would be optimal.

When do you cold retard your sourdough and why? How's it working out for ya?

EDIT: I meant "after bulk (for proof) or after final proof"

[Bill/SFNM]

I would say the answer to your question has a lot to do with the response of your culture to different temps. All cultures are not the same, and even the same culture will exhibit different temperature responses depending on a number of factors.    

I've been intensely experimenting with this concept of "ideal times and temps" for a few years with different cultures and dough types. My preference is to ferment and proof in the range of 60F-75F, depending on the culture and the results I am aiming for. I thought there was no combination I haven't tried, but I don't think I have ever tried cold-retarding on the front-end. I may try this soon.

However, after fermenting, but before proofing, I do end up sticking the dough in the fridge overnight and even for a few days when my schedule doesn't go according to plan. Too long and the gluten can break down and turn to goop. Is there a difference in the final pie when it has been retarded in this way? If there is, it is a very small one. Problem is how can you do a side-by-side test using dough from the same batch?

[johnnydoubleu]

Thanks Bill, I am glad I am not the only one who doesn't completely have this in the bag...there are so many variables.

FWIW, my culture is a homemade one created from organic AP and organic rye and pineapple juice (and fed/maintained now on KA AP or Heckers). It is really vigorous and rises quite well but I am not sure it plays so nice with retardation. I wonder if there are established types of sourdough that are more suited to being retarded (and what those types are if any).

I have retarded on the front-end with low-knead doughs (I don't have a mixer so I tend to do something Tartine'ish) and have had some success but other times not so much. With pizza I can get away with the variance/s more than I can with bread.

[johnnydoubleu]

For my work flow I am dealing with an apartment that tends to stay around 70 and is fairly dry (certainly right now it is). So I am trying to work around/with that temp. What I'd like to do is make dough late in the evening for use either the following night or the next night and I feel like retarding would give me some more control, ideally. The reason why retarding immediately or close to it is appealing is so that the bulk fermentation could happen when I would like (or maybe even during retardation) and after some gluten has been formed (in the context of a low-knead dough).

Since I have experimented with cold retarding immediately (which would seem to negate using an active starter), I have also experimented with using retarded/non-active starter directly from the fridge and doing a room temp ferment and proof. This dough took a little less than 3 days to ferment, and def still worked. It gave me similar results to retarding.

Also, I have been making a lot more bread than pizza so this question stems from that -- I am looking for a workflow that would work equally well for bread or pizza. I find if I cold proof, that my bread suffers a lot more than my pizza (as compared to all room temp).

[TXCraig1]

John,

I don't cold ferment - ever (by cold, I mean sub-40F). It is not something I would reccomend. I don't fault anyone for going this way; I just personally believe it is suboptimal.

60F is as low as I go. I played around with cold fermenting on and off for several years and never got a result that came anything close to what I get at 60-64F. ~60F is easy to maintain with a cooler and a frozen juice bottle full of water.

I don't understand what the allure of cold fermenting is unless it is just about scheduling. You can, IMO anyway, develop more flavor faster at temps near room temp. If a more intense sourdough flavor profile is the goal, I'd encourage you to go the other way and try fermenting around 95F. More discussion on that here: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14627.0.html

Craig

[johnnydoubleu]

Thanks Craig, Yeah it is mostly about scheduling -- the "luxury" of more or less a full stop and then a full start.

I agree (based on my far more limited experience with it) with your conclusions and don't think it really is at all close to optimal to cold retard at the moment.

I am intrigued by the warmer temp idea as well.

The allure is just the flexibility -- but if the results aren't ever going to be as good/where they could be without retarding then I am happy to give up on it. Just wondering if there is a way to get it to work and also trying to wrestle with how much value that really brings to the table in the end.

Thanks so much for your input!

[dellavecchia]

Also, I have been making a lot more bread than pizza so this question stems from that -- I am looking for a workflow that would work equally well for bread or pizza. I find if I cold proof, that my bread suffers a lot more than my pizza (as compared to all room temp).

Sometimes I will do cold for the final proof when making bread. It is more of a time management issue than anything else - although it does impart more sourness to the final product. After bench rest and final shaping, the dough goes into the basket and directly to the fridge. Some have mentioned before that commercial operations use a walk-in temp that is in the 40's instead of the 30's that your fridge is likely set at. That may be why you see examples like the Tartine Bread video where the dough continues to rise substantially during the final cold proof (which Chad does).

For the bake after the cold proof, it goes directly into the oven from the fridge.

John

[Bill/SFNM]

I don't understand what the allure of cold fermenting is unless it is just about scheduling.

Completely agree.

[johnnydoubleu]

I think the "allure" of cold retarding partially stems from the fact that it so often the mantra for baker's yeast based doughs and that is a bit hard to get out of one's head (or mine at least).

Further, sometimes I can't use a dough or doughs when I originally intended so having shorter period of time from when I decide I want to make pizza or bread is desirable as compared to having a use window that is static.

[randyjohnsonhve]

Interesting...I have cut a dough that I made at 2 hrs prior to bake, against a cold retard dough I made 8 hours prior to bake, against a cold retard dough I made the day before...The last two showed no difference between the two, but a major difference between the last two and the 2 hr job...Craig, have you cut your 60F dough against cold retard doughs...I know that VPN joints cold retard their dough...And if there is no difference, it seems to be much more convenient to place the dough in a refrigerator at approx 37-40F, than to set up a cooler situation...In addition, I believe that Chris Bianco makes dough the morning of his bake, but I do not know if he cold retards...RJelli

[johnnydoubleu]

John, the method Chad describes (cold retarding after bulk/for proof) is pretty much what I have been assuming to be the way to go if employing a cold retard at any point. Thanks very much for pointing out the temps that Chad likely uses as compared to at home -- certainly would make a difference. That being said, I have read some some studies that introduced some uncertainty about how optimal proofing is as the point where retardation should take place (specifically in regards to sourdough and how it is affected by different temps).

[johnnydoubleu]

Randy, your testing was with pure sourdough as a leaven?

[dellavecchia]

That being said, I have read some some studies that introduced some uncertainty about how optimal proofing is as the point where retardation should take place (specifically in regards to sourdough and how it is affected by different temps).

That is very interesting. Chad states he does the cold proof because it was "revelatory" to him in regards to complexity of flavor. I have never experienced that level of insight with my own experiments - in fact I prefer the bread that has been room temp the entire time.

John

[randyjohnsonhve]

Sorry, no it was not, it was with ADY....But tell me on ADY, does it make a difference?  Thx, RJelli

[TXCraig1]

Craig, have you cut your 60F dough against cold retard doughs...I know that VPN joints cold retard their dough...And if there is no difference, it seems to be much more convenient to place the dough in a refrigerator at approx 37-40F, than to set up a cooler situation.

Yes, and my general observations are that there are no flavor benefits to cold fermentation (rather, it takes significantly longer at refrigeration temps to generate comparable flavor), and there is a meaningful degradation of dough handling properties and crust tenderness after an extended period of dough refrigeration (this is much less pronounced  with baker’s yeast as compared to sourdough). 

I don’t know what VPN places do and don’t do. I doubt all of them cold ferment. I also doubt very many use natural starters.  I’ve never been to one that had a crust that blew my socks off: 2-Amys, A16, Dough, Tutta Bella – all OK, but not particularly flavorful crusts.

CL

[TXCraig1]

Sorry, no it was not, it was with ADY....But tell me on ADY, does it make a difference?  Thx, RJelli

Yes - any form of baker's yeast vs. sourdough is night and day. Different pH environment (effects activation of proteolytic enzymes in the flour and solubility of gluten), different enzyme situation (LAB produce proteolytic enzymes not found in dough leavened with bakers yeast), and different yeast activity vs. temperature profile at a minimum.  There is simply a lot more going on in dough leavened with sourdough culture (much of which is degrading the gluten). Also, the baker's yeast revives much faster when warmed.

CL

[R2-Bayou]

I've had no luck with cold fermenting doughs leavened using sourdough cultures, I just can't get the oven spring. Baker's yeast I've had great results under cold fermentation, but I highly prefer room temp fermented sourdough...

[johnnydoubleu]

In consideration of how strongly everyone seems to feel about room'ish temp fermented sourdough being superior, it seems to me that it is reasonable to consider that (especially with a low-knead bread where time is essential) cold retarding might be best done immediately and then a prolonged room'ish temp bulk after that. Meaning if you intended to store sourdough for later use at an unspecified time, best fully retard it to use later fully at room'ish temp/as though it was never retarded (but padding in some time for it to revive). Yes, the sourdough take some time to revive but it will. In a retail/commercial environment where the dough will usually be used within a certain time frame, the ability to hold dough for an extended period of time is less necessary/valuable I would think.

[dmcavanagh]

Here's a cold fermented dough, three days+   http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2012/01/my-pie-monday-guacamole-merguez-sausage-calabrian-chiles-slideshow.html#

[johnnydoubleu]

dmc, how much starter are you using and how active is it? How long does it sit out as you are mixing it before it is retarded? Do you go from fridge to oven or let it warm up first?

I have made edible pizza (as well) with up to week old sourdough but bread is not so forgiving as pizza. I am coming at this from the angle that it has to be a workflow that will make truly excellent bread (great crust, spring, flavor etc.) first and pizza second. If the workflow is good enough to produce great bread it will most certainly produce adequate pizza with a little bit of modification.

EDIT: changed "solid" to "edible"