The Mystery Dough Pizza for Tomorrow

[norma427]

I purchased 2 more Pepe’s frozen dough balls from Wal-mart yesterday and brought them right home and placed them in the freezer. I mixed the Pepe’s clone dough later last evening, because I was busy in the afternoon and evening.  The Pepe’s clone dough was mixed in my Kitchen Aid mixer on speed one (with some scrapping needed with a spoon to get all the flour off the sides of the mixer bowl and a couple of hand kneads until the mixer with the dough hook started mixing well). The cake yeast was incorporated in the formula water and the salt was added to the flour.  The mix of this dough was very easy and the resulting dough was nice and soft.  The final dough temperature was 78.8 degrees F.  The dough to be used for a Pepe’s dough ball was 458 grams after cutting a little off, because I knew the other Pepe’s dough balls usually weigh more than one pound.  I am not sure if I should have based my final dough weight for the Pepe’s clone on the other frozen Pepe’s dough weights or not. The Pepe’s clone dough was then formed into a dough ball and oiled with vegetable oil.  The Pepe’s clone dough ball then went into the freezer right away. 

This morning I removed a frozen Pepe’s dough ball from the plastic bag and oiled it with vegetable oil too.  The Pepe’s dough ball this time weighed 456 grams, so it was a little less than the clone Pepe’s dough ball.  I removed the clone Pepe’s dough ball out of the freezer just to take pictures of both frozen dough balls together.  The clone Pepe’s dough ball didn’t look like it had fermented at all when I removed it from the freezer.  Both Pepe’s dough balls are back in the freezer until this afternoon when I will place both of them in the refrigerator to start the defrost for Tuesday.

This is the printed sheet from the expanded dough calculation tool for the formulation I used for the Pepe’s clone dough if anyone is interested.

Norma

[norma427]

Norma

[norma427]

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

Can you tell me in which part of your Wal-Mart store the Pepe dough balls are kept, and are they frozen or refrigerated?

Peter

[dmcavanagh]

Norma

I have to ask you, what is your attraction to this frozen dough. I live about a half hour ride from Amsterdam, NY where Pepe's is made, and frankly I've never even heard of the place or heard anyone else talk about it. I don't even think they sell that dough in my local Wal-marts? Is the stuff any good? What's special about it?

[norma427]

Norma,

Can you tell me in which part of your Wal-Mart store the Pepe dough balls are kept, and are they frozen or refrigerated?

Peter

Peter,

The Pepe’s frozen dough balls in the Super Center Wal-Mart store are kept in the frozen section right near all the frozen pizza products.  Yesterday they only had about 10 Pepe’s frozen dough balls left.  Last week Wal-Mart had a lot more. 

Norma

[norma427]

Norma

I have to ask you, what is your attraction to this frozen dough. I live about a half hour ride from Amsterdam, NY where Pepe's is made, and frankly I've never even heard of the place or heard anyone else talk about it. I don't even think they sell that dough in my local Wal-marts? Is the stuff any good? What's special about it?

Dave,

I have tried frozen dough balls before and as you might know I like to experiment and see what different  commercial pizza products do or won’t do. 

For some reason when I just decided on a whim of seeing the Pepe’s frozen dough balls to just try them.  As you can see from John’s post at Reply 28 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17632.msg171196.html#msg171196 there was a bakery in Amsterdam called “Peps”.  I don’t know if it was the same as Pepe’s bakery or not.  I had tried to search the internet to learn more about Pepe’s frozen dough balls and where they might be manufactured and all I found was what I posted at Reply 80 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17632.msg172188.html#msg172188 and Reply 82 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17632.msg172205.html#msg172205 and Reply 83 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17632.msg172232.html#msg172232 where Pepe’s must have liquidated equipment.  I think, but don’t know, that Pepe’s frozen dough balls are being manufactured somewhere else now.  I did look up Wal-Mart customer service number and might call them this week to see if they could tell me where to send a email or letter to let whoever manufactures Pepe’s dough balls that I like them. There is also a place that someone can write questions about Pepe’s dough balls on the Wal-Mart website, but I don’t know if I want to do that.  If you go on Wal-Mart’s website under grocery you can type in Pepe’s frozen dough balls and at least for me it tells me what stores in my area have the Pepe’s frozen dough balls.

Maybe if you are interested, you could ask around Amsterdam and see if Pepe’s did manufacture the dough balls at one time and see if anyone knows where they manufacture the dough balls now.  Maybe another company bought Pepe’s or their recipe.

So far, I think the Pepe’s frozen dough balls do really make a great tasting pizza.  The dough is soft and very easy to open and the resulting pizza from last week was very good.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

On the matter of the amount of carbohydrates in a 16-ounce frozen dough ball, note the amount of carbohydrates (8 x 25 = 200 grams) in this 16-ounce frozen dough ball from Rich's: http://richsfoodservice.com/products/pizza/pizza-dough-a-crust/pizza-dough-balls/16-oz-pizza-dough-ball/16459. And that dough ball also includes high fructose corn syrup that is around 74% carbohydrates (however, not much HFCS is used). I cannot think of a single white flour that has enough carbohydrates (cake flour is one of the highest in carbohydrates) to meet the total carbohydrates listed in the Pepe's Nutrition Facts.

And here is another example: http://www.sofofoods.com/pdf/featured/MAM%20LAROSA%201-2012.pdf.

Peter

[dmcavanagh]

This might help  https://www.google.com/search?sourceid=ie7&q=Pepe's+bakery+in+Amsterdam+%2CNY&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&rlz=1I7TSNA_enUS461US461

[dmcavanagh]

Norma

You're probably "chasing a ghost" on this one. It looks like the business was sold out, no telling who bought the name and does the manufacturing. I do know that there is a dough making production in Utica, NY which has ties to the company that used to own the Scalfani tomatoes brand. Utica is about an hours drive from Amsterdam, so it's possible that they are the ones. I'm sure all these formulas use a proprietary mixture of ingredients and flour which would be almost impossible for a layman to duplicate exactly. They probably have more additives mixed in then we even know exist. I had looked into the possibility of starting a dough production business at one time, but there are more of them around then you would ever imagine. The "pie" is sliced" into many small pieces. If I can at some point find info about the Utica operation I will place it in this thread. I'm sure your own dough is much better then any frozen dough ball you gonna find on the market. I'd rather dpend the time experimenting with all the different flours we have easy access to. Happy dough making!

[dmcavanagh]

Found it  http://www.deiorios.com/

[norma427]

Norma,

On the matter of the amount of carbohydrates in a 16-ounce frozen dough ball, note the amount of carbohydrates (8 x 25 = 200 grams) in this 16-ounce frozen dough ball from Rich's: http://richsfoodservice.com/products/pizza/pizza-dough-a-crust/pizza-dough-balls/16-oz-pizza-dough-ball/16459. And that dough ball also includes high fructose corn syrup that is around 74% carbohydrates (however, not much HFCS is used). I cannot think of a single white flour that has enough carbohydrates (cake flour is one of the highest in carbohydrates) to meet the total carbohydrates listed in the Pepe's Nutrition Facts.

And here is another example: http://www.sofofoods.com/pdf/featured/MAM%20LAROSA%201-2012.pdf.

Peter

Peter,

I noted the amount of carbohydrates in the Rich’s 16-ounce dough ball and the MaMa LaRosa Bellissimo dough balls.  Since they both only list 25 carbohydrates do you think Pepe’s isn’t being truthful in their Nutrition Facts?  I see the Rich’s dough ball also includes high fructose corn syrup.  I know you did the research on all flours and know how many carbohydrates are in those flours.

Can you explain where your research is going to take this project?  Do you think nothing will work for a Pepe’s clone dough?

Norma

[norma427]

Dave,

You are probably right that I am “chasing a ghost” in trying to find out who manufactures Pepe’s frozen dough balls.  Thank you for all the links. 

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

Where this project goes will depend to a great degree on the results of your bake test next Tuesday with the two dough balls. But, what I will tell you is that I trust the numbers for the BforB flour and the KAAP flour. I also trust the results of your recent hydration bake test and the gluten mass test. Those tests were done with a real live Pepe's dough ball and have nothing to do with the Pepe's Nutrition Facts or ingredients list. There is no way to know if those Nutrition Facts are correct or accurate, and there is no way to determine whether any errors are intentional or unintentional. But I will tell you that you can't just hide ingredients from the ingredients list. People have allergies, some may be vegetarians or vegans, or may have other health or nutrition related issues that you don't dare omit ingredients from the ingredients list. I recently sent an email to the FDA about whether bromates, if used, are required to be recited in ingredients lists. The FDA is pretty good about responding to consumer questions. If they do respond, the answer may also give us a better idea of what other kinds of ingredients dare not be omitted in ingredients lists. I also feel comfortable with my analysis of the flours, mainly based on the results of your gluten mass test. Of course, Pepe's, or its successor, may be using a flour milled to their specs. There is nothing I can do about that. The best I can do is say what I think they are using as a flour from a protein standpoint that fits the Pepe's Nutrition Facts (except for the carbohydrates).

As far as Pepe's as a business enterprise is concerned, I am sure that you did a lot of searching in an effort to try to determine who might now be behind Pepe's, including going through all of the hits that Dave turned up in his Google search. I, myself, went down the same path. However, I do think that it might be worth a call to Wal-Mart to see if you can find out who is now behind Pepe's. Unless they are phasing out the existing inventory of Pepe's dough balls, there must be someone making the Pepe's dough balls that are in the Wal-Mart stores. If you can get an answer out of Wal-Mart, then that might be a lead that we can follow up on.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

Where this project goes will depend to a great degree on the results of your bake test next Tuesday with the two dough balls. But, what I will tell you is that I trust the numbers for the BforB flour and the KAAP flour. I also trust the results of your recent hydration bake test and the gluten mass test. Those tests were done with a real live Pepe's dough ball and have nothing to do with the Pepe's Nutrition Facts or ingredients list. There is no way to know if those Nutrition Facts are correct or accurate, and there is no way to determine whether any errors are intentional or unintentional. But I will tell you that you can't just hide ingredients from the ingredients list. People have allergies, some may be vegetarians or vegans, or may have other health or nutrition related issues that you don't dare omit ingredients from the ingredients list. I recently sent an email to the FDA about whether bromates, if used, are required to be recited in ingredients lists. The FDA is pretty good about responding to consumer questions. If they do respond, the answer may also give us a better idea of what other kinds of ingredients dare not be omitted in ingredients lists. I also feel comfortable with my analysis of the flours, mainly based on the results of your gluten mass test. Of course, Pepe's, or its successor, may be using a flour milled to their specs. There is nothing I can do about that. The best I can do is say what I think they are using as a flour from a protein standpoint that fits the Pepe's Nutrition Facts (except for the carbohydrates).

As far as Pepe's as a business enterprise is concerned, I am sure that you did a lot of searching in an effort to try to determine who might now be behind Pepe's, including going through all of the hits that Dave turned up in his Google search. I, myself, went down the same path. However, I do think that it might be worth a call to Wal-Mart to see if you can find out who is now behind Pepe's. Unless they are phasing out the existing inventory of Pepe's dough balls, there must be someone making the Pepe's dough balls that are in the Wal-Mart stores. If you can get an answer out of Wal-Mart, then that might be a lead that we can follow up on.

Peter

Peter,

I can understand the results of the bake test on Tuesday will determine where this project goes.  I don’t know if you recall or not, but when I tried out the New York frozen dough balls they didn’t even have the spelling right on the one word.  I understand ingredients can’t be hidden on the ingredients list.  Good to hear you sent a letter to the FDA about whether bromates, if used, are required to be recited in ingredient lists.  I will wait to see what they have to say.  I know there was some confusion from the one link I posted whether bromates might have been included in Pepe’s frozen dough balls at one time.  I can understand you feel comfortable with your analysis of the flours, based mainly on the results of my gluten mass test.  I also understand that Pepe’s or their processor might be getting a special flour blended for them. 

I didn’t really think to look before now, but I just looked at the plastic package Pepe’s dough balls have came in.  The date on the one in my freezer says 3/26/11 07.42  If you look at Reply 21 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17632.msg171172.html#msg171172 and look on the date stamped on the package you can see it say 3/26/11  13:10 and if you look at the package I posted at Reply 34 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17632.msg171439.html#msg171439 I think the plastic package say 3/26/11 13:09 and the next one at Reply 101 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17632.msg172603.html#msg172603  also says 3/26/11 07.42  Do you think that is when the dough balls were made almost a year ago?  I wouldn’t even think dough balls that are frozen would last that long and still be good, but I sure have no idea how long frozen dough balls last.  I would guess that the end numbers are the time the dough balls were made and the first numbers would be the date they were made.

I did do a lot of searching in an effort to determine who might be behind Pepe’s just like you did.  I will call Wal-Mart to see if I can find out who is now behind Pepe’s. 

I also searched the Wal-Mart Superior Bakery Bake Shopped Bread Dough (1 lb.) at http://www.walmart.com/ip/Bake-Shoppe-Bread-Dough/14053214  I didn’t look into the Superior Bakery Shop Bread Dough much or where they might be located, but that product has 27 grams of carbohydrates.  Do you see where a question can be asked about that product?  I see where a question can be asked for the Pepe’s Fried Calzone Pizza Dough.  Do you think I should ask a question there or call customer service first?

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

I would imagine that the dates you mentioned are production dates. Some time ago, when I was working on a Lamonica's frozen dough clone, I spoke with Roberto Martini in their California office and I asked him how long their dough balls would be usable. He said that they would last for about six months if held at 0 degrees C but that in their labs they were able to hold dough balls for over a year without any problem. I wouldn't think that Wal-Mart would want to be selling dough balls that are coming up on their first anniversary.

I don't that there is much point in getting into the Wal-Mart bread dough matter. If you look at the Disclaimer at the bottom of the page you referenced, you can see that they have no interest in answering questions about the products they sell. I would focus on finding out who is now behind Pepe's, or their future intentions with respect to the frozen Pepe's dough balls.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

I would imagine that the dates you mentioned are production dates. Some time ago, when I was working on a Lamonica's frozen dough clone, I spoke with Roberto Martini in their California office and I asked him how long their dough balls would be usable. He said that they would last for about six months if held at 0 degrees C but that in their labs they were able to hold dough balls for over a year without any problem. I wouldn't think that Wal-Mart would want to be selling dough balls that are coming up on their first anniversary.

I don't that there is much point in getting into the Wal-Mart bread dough matter. If you look at the Disclaimer at the bottom of the page you referenced, you can see that they have no interest in answering questions about the products they sell. I would focus on finding out who is now behind Pepe's, or their future intentions with respect to the frozen Pepe's dough balls.

Peter

Peter,

Since Roberto Martini said their Lamonica’s frozen dough balls should last for about six months at 0 degrees C, I wouldn’t  think Wal-Mart would want to be selling dough balls that are almost a year old either.  I might ask Steve if he purchased any of the Pepe’s frozen doughs balls or looked at them.  He said he might purchase a few.  Maybe he could see at his Wal-Mart store what the production date might have been.  Steve and I don’t go to the same Wal-Mart Super Centers.

The only reason I mentioned the Wal-mart Superior Bread Dough was I wondered if the same company might be producing the Pepe’s frozen dough balls.  I guess I will wait and see if I can get any answers from customer service at Wal-Mart.

Norma

[norma427]

I called Wal-Mart customer service this morning and gave the man I spoke to all the information that is on the Pepe’s frozen dough ball as far as address, name of product, UPC code, and other information and also what location Wal-mart I purchased the Pepe’s frozen dough balls from.  I said I wanted to thank Pepe’s for making such a good product and for Wal-Mart handling the product.  I told Francisco that I had searched the web for the information myself, but think Pepe’s must have someone else manufacturing the product for them.  I told him what my web searches were. I also told Francisco that I had tried to call the number I found in my web searches for Pepe’s and that number isn’t active anymore. Francisco looked on Wal-mart computer and couldn’t find the information I wanted, but said he will have someone look into it and someone from Wal-Mart will call me back in a few days with the information I wanted.

I also had looked at the Nutrition Facts on all my bags of flours at home last evening to see what carbohydrates were listed.  It still wonders me about the carbohydrates now since Peter posted he didn’t know of any flours that could have made the carbohydrates that high on the Nutrition Facts.  The two highest flours that I have at home in carbohydrates on the Nutrition Facts are the King Arthur Cake Flour and the Shurfine AP flour.  Both of them only list 23 grams of carbohydrates. 

It makes me wonder since fresh yeast is a living ‘cake’ of compressed carbohydrates if different brands of fresh yeasts (aka cake yeast) have different amounts of carbohydrates listed in their Nutrition Facts.  I would think the starch in different fresh yeasts might be different, but don’t know.  I wouldn’t think there would be enough carbohydrates in any fresh yeast to make Pepe’s Nutrition Facts be so high in carboyhydrates though.

Norma

[norma427]

Both dough balls this morning.

Norma

[norma427]

Norma