The Mystery Dough Pizza for Tomorrow

[Pete-zza]

It makes me wonder since fresh yeast is a living ‘cake’ of compressed carbohydrates if different brands of fresh yeasts (aka cake yeast) have different amounts of carbohydrates listed in their Nutrition Facts.  I would think the starch in different fresh yeasts might be different, but don’t know.  I wouldn’t think there would be enough carbohydrates in any fresh yeast to make Pepe’s Nutrition Facts be so high in carboyhydrates though.

Norma,

In your version of the Pepe's clone dough formulation I gave you (with the bowl residue compensation), the 2.5% fresh yeast comes to 7.19 grams. Of that, the carbohydrates come to 1.23 grams. To bridge the carbohydrate gap we have been discussing, I estimate that you would need to use about 10.5 ounces of fresh yeast (about two thirds of a pound). The story doesn't get any better using an amount of dry yeast that is equivalent to 2.5% fresh yeast. For example, an equivalent amount of ADY has about 1.5 grams of carbohydrates.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

In your version of the Pepe's clone dough formulation I gave you (with the bowl residue compensation), the 2.5% fresh yeast comes to 7.19 grams. Of that, the carbohydrates come to 1.23 grams. To bridge the carbohydrate gap we have been discussing, I estimate that you would need to use about 10.5 ounces of fresh yeast (about two thirds of a pound). The story doesn't get any better using an amount of dry yeast that is equivalent to 2.5% fresh yeast. For example, an equivalent amount of ADY has about 1.5 grams of carbohydrates.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for telling me how much fresh yeast would have to be added to the Pepe’s clone formulation for the carbohydrate gap to be bridged.  That would be way too much cake yeast to use.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

I also had looked at the Nutrition Facts on all my bags of flours at home last evening to see what carbohydrates were listed.  It still wonders me about the carbohydrates now since Peter posted he didn’t know of any flours that could have made the carbohydrates that high on the Nutrition Facts.  The two highest flours that I have at home in carbohydrates on the Nutrition Facts are the King Arthur Cake Flour and the Shurfine AP flour.  Both of them only list 23 grams of carbohydrates.

Norma,

I would imagine that your carbohydrate numbers are based on a 30-gram serving size. I have been basing my carbohydrate numbers on a sample size of 100 grams, which is what is almost always used in the specs that millers create. Cake and pastry flours are also generally unmalted, most likely because cake and pastry doughs are not usually fermented and, hence, do not need added amylase activity.

It is also possible to have an unmalted all-purpose flour with high carbohydrate values, with an example being this one: http://www.gmflour.com/gmflour/Flour_SpecSheet/POLLYANNA%20UNTR2.pdf.

I still do not have an explanation for the carbohydrate gap.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

I would imagine that your carbohydrate numbers are based on a 30-gram serving size. I have been basing my carbohydrate numbers on a sample size of 100 grams, which is what is almost always used in the specs that millers create. Cake and pastry flours are also generally unmalted, most likely because cake and pastry doughs are not usually fermented and, hence, do not need added amylase activity.

It is also possible to have an unmalted all-purpose flour with high carbohydrate values, with an example being this one: http://www.gmflour.com/gmflour/Flour_SpecSheet/POLLYANNA%20UNTR2.pdf.

I still do not have an explanation for the carbohydrate gap.

Peter

Both flours say the carbohydrate numbers are based on 1/4 cup, but the King Arthur Cake flour says ¼ cup 30 grams and the Shurfine AP says ¼ cup 31 grams of carbohydrates per serving size.  I didn’t know cake and pastry flours aren’t generally malted, but have taken note of that now and why they aren’t generally malted. 

I see the the Pollyanna all-purpose flour does have high carbohydrate values.  I need to learn a lot more about flours to understand them more.  Eventually in time, I will learn more.

I can understand you still don’t have an explanation for the carbohydrate gap.

Norma

[TXCraig1]

Is Pollyanna considered an AP or pastry flour? I don't remember ever using Pollyanna in restaurants for anything besides pie crusts and cookies.

CL

[Pete-zza]

Is Pollyanna considered an AP or pastry flour? I don't remember ever using Pollyanna in restaurants for anything besides pie crusts and cookies.

Craig,

You are very perceptive. I don't know the answer but if you look at the description of the Polyanna flour at http://www.gmflour.com/gmflour/flour.aspx?type=Ewinter, you will see that it is milled from 100% hard red winter wheat but that the "lower protein level and its untreated composition make it perfect for pastries, pie crust and cookies". 

Peter

[TXCraig1]

I think the most likely answer to the carbohydrate mystery is that the nutritional analysis on the Pepe's package is wrong. I bet it is 26g not 36g. To be 36g, the dough would be something on the order of 10% HR. at 55% HR, it falls right in at 26g carbohydrates.

I think your salt estimation may be a little low - not that it matters. Salt is about 400mg Na per g NaCL (393.4 to be precise). That would give .75g salt/serving or 6g salt/ball (448g).

The current Walmart spec says unbrominated: http://www.walmart.com/ip/Pepe-s-Bakery-Fried-Dough-Bread-Calzone-Pizza-Dough-16-oz/10849034

CL

[norma427]

Craig,

Thanks for helping out on this thread.  I also agree, you are very perceptive! 

Norma

[Pete-zza]

I think your salt estimation may be a little low - not that it matters. Salt is about 400mg Na per g NaCL (393.4 to be precise). That would give .75g salt/serving or 6g salt/ball (448g).

The current Walmart spec says unbrominated: http://www.walmart.com/ip/Pepe-s-Bakery-Fried-Dough-Bread-Calzone-Pizza-Dough-16-oz/10849034

Craig,

You are correct on the amount of salt. Based on 300mg sodium and eight servings, 2400mg of sodium translates into about 1.03 teaspoons of salt. The FDA is fussy on how sodium is reported: "Sodium'': A statement of the number of milligrams of sodium in a specified serving of food expressed as zero when the serving contains less than 5 milligrams of sodium, to the nearest 5-milligram increment when the serving contains 5 to 140 milligrams of sodium, and to the nearest 10-milligram increment when the serving contains greater than 140 milligrams. Most of the Pepe's sodium is added salt since the flour in the amounts we are talking about contains less than 3mg sodium (plus a couple of mg for the amount of cake yeast stated in the formulation). I intentionally backed off on the salt when I came up with the original Pepe's clone dough formulation after Norma told me that she and her taste testers said that the salt level--on their palates at least--was just about right. She and her taste testers might be able to comment further on the salt level when they try out the two doughs, the Pepe's and the clone.

I ignored the carbohydrate numbers in coming up with the Pepe's clone dough formulation. Instead, I relied on the results of the gluten mass test that Norma conducted. Ignoring the carbohydrates and trying to take the rounding ranges into account, I thought that the BforB and KAAP flours fit the rest of the Pepe's Nutrition Facts reasonably well. However, even then, I had some lingering reservations because of the high Pepe's carbohydrate number. But, as hard as I tried, I couldn't rationalize that number.

The Pepe's ingredients list that you referenced is the same as the one Norma started out with. The fact that the Pepe's flour was unbromated helped a lot because it ruled out a lot of pizza flours (high-gluten and bread flours) that are bromated.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

After my last post, I went back and calculated the carbohydrates for the BforB and KAAP flours in the amounts used and got 204.53 grams for the BforB and 205.57 grams for the KAAP. This compares with 8 x 26 = 208 grams that Craig speculated. So, Craig may well be right.

I also did the carbohydrate calculation the way that the FDA says it should be done, and I got 215.3 grams for the BforB flour and 214.3 grams for the KAAP. However, with rounding of numbers and the fact that there can be variations in the Pepe's dough ball weights (I based my numbers on a one-pound dough ball) and also normal +/- variations in ingredients, those numbers might not be too far off. Of course, if Pepe's dough is using a different flour or source, that could also account for the differences.

Peter

[norma427]

Craig,

You are really smart in figuring out stuff like the salt!    I only can wish I would be that smart.  I just play the guessing game all the time and keep asking question like there is no tomorrow. 

Norma

[TXCraig1]

Craig,

You are really smart in figuring out stuff like the salt!    I only can wish I would be that smart.

Who are you kidding? I know you, remember? You're not only very smart, you have great common sense which is even more impressive. It is your thirst for knowledge that motivates me.

CL

[norma427]

Who are you kidding? I know you, remember? You're not only very smart, you have great common sense which is even more impressive. It is your thirst for knowledge that motivates me.

CL

Craig,

You are way to kind, but I appreciate your kind comments.    I am glad you and other members are willing to help me. 

Norma

[norma427]

The Pepe’s dough ball and the Pepe’s clone dough ball today both fermented differently, but both pizzas baked about the same, had the same bottom crusts, oven spring and same rims.  The only other real difference was that the Pepe’s clone was a little more salty in the rim when tasted.  I don’t know why that was, but Steve and I like the little saltier rim better.  Two of my taste testers couldn’t tell any difference in both pizzas. We all enjoyed this pizza and now I am not sure if I would like to sell this Pepe’s clone pizza at market or not.  I placed a few slices in the heated humidified cabinet and they held up well.

I am not sure, but think my Pepe’s clone might have fermented differently because I had used cake yeast that was frozen before this experiment.

I must say Peter, I think you have cloned a dough again.  Congrats! 

Norma

[norma427]

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Norma