Author Topic: The Mystery Dough Pizza for Tomorrow (Read 15479 times)

norma427 · « **Reply #160 on:** February 23, 2012, 05:11:04 PM »

Norma

Pete-zza · « **Reply #161 on:** February 23, 2012, 05:56:10 PM »

Norma,

Thank you very much for conducting the gluten mass tests on the Ceresota and Mondako flour. It is interesting how the gluten masses were quite different. I am not sure what the factors are but possibly the Mondako flour is milled from grains with better gluten quality. It is also interesting to see how the bleaching of the Mondako flour appears to make the gluten mass for that flour much lighter. Maybe the gluten mass test is also a good one to determine whether a given flour is bleached or not.

To keep all of the gluten mass data in one place, below is the updated list of all the gluten mass tests conducted to date. They are listed in order of their gluten mass values. Since you did all of the testing, that gives me much greater confidence in the numbers.

KASL (King Arthur Sir Lancelot): 4.1 ounces, or 116.235 grams (14.2 +/- 0.2% protein)
Power (Pendleton): 3.8 ounces, or 107.73 grams (13.0 +/- 0.3% protein)
KABF (King Arthur Bread Flour): 2.68 ounces, or 75.978 grams (12.7 +/- 0.2% protein)
Mondako (bleached, Pendleton): 2.354 ounces, or 66.75 grams (12.0 +/- 0.3%)
Better for Bread (aka Harvest King): 2.306 ounces, or 65.3751 grams (12.0 +/- 0.3% protein)
KAAP (King Arthur All-Purpose): 2.297 ounces, or 65.11995 grams (11.7 +/- 0.2% protein)
Ceresota All-Purpose: 2.114 ounces, or 59.93 grams (12%)

As you can see from the above list, the Mondako, Better for Bread and KAAP flours are pretty much bunched together from the standpoint of gluten mass values and also protein content values. This leads me to believe that any one of those three flours can be used to make a Pepe's clone dough. However, I think I would lean more to the Mondako and Better for Bread flours. I would also say that the Ceresota flour looks to be out of the running. It also puts into question whether that flour legitimately has a protein content of 12%, as was noted at the Heckers/Ceresota website.

Peter

Edir (2/2/12): Provided updated protein contents of the Power and Mondako flours.

norma427 · « **Reply #162 on:** February 23, 2012, 06:36:42 PM »

Peter,

I also found it interesting how the gluten masses were quite different. You are probably right that the Mondako flour is milled from grains with better gluten quality. It sure seemed like that was so, at least from the wet gluten mass test. I also think if someone wants to try and clone a dough in the future maybe a simple test would be (if they have a dough ball or a piece of dough from a business) to do a gluten mass test to see if flour is bleached or not. At least that could put some flours out of the running.

I can see from your list of gluten mass data that the Mondako, Better for Bread and KAAP flour are pretty much bunched together from a standpoint of gluten mass values and also protein content values. Do you still want me to stick with the Better for Bread flour for my next attempt with the (2.0) Pepe’s clone?

I also wonder about the Ceresota flour and if it legitimately has a protein content of 12% since I did the test.

I wanted to ask you one other question about when you set-forth the (2.0) Pepe’s clone formula in Reply 153 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17632.msg173159.html#msg173159 Why did you use 448 grams for the total dough ball weight, rather than 453.6 grams? Since I am going to use a bowl residue compensation, why would that matter?

Norma

norma427 · « **Reply #163 on:** February 23, 2012, 06:37:48 PM »

I called Wal-Mart customer service just a little while ago because I hadn’t received a return phone call from Wal-Mart about the Pepe’s frozen dough balls. I talked to Shon this time and she was very helpful (I had asked Shon to spell her name, because I never heard that name before). I told Shon that I had searched online though Google to find out where to call Pepe’s, but the phone number I found wasn’t active and I couldn’t find much of any other information about them. She said to wait on the line until she contacted merchandising. After a few holds and a couple of calls, she told me the information for Pepe’s. She said they don’t have a phone number for me to contact, but they do have an address. The name and address is Pepe’s Bakery 4 Pysanka Circle, Amsterdam, NY 12010. I asked Shon if that wasn’t strange that Pepe’s Bakery wouldn’t have a phone number for me to call and she said they are in the process of moving and that is why they don’t have a phone number listed. I guess I will now write them a letter. If anyone wants to tell me what questions to write in the letter, let me know.

Norma

Pete-zza · « **Reply #164 on:** February 23, 2012, 06:54:58 PM »

Norma,

Quote from: norma427 on February 23, 2012, 06:36:42 PM

I can see from your list of gluten mass data that the Mondako, Better for Bread and KAAP flour are pretty much bunched together from a standpoint of gluten mass values and also protein content values. Do you still want me to stick with the Better for Bread flour for my next attempt with the (2.0) Pepe’s clone?

Yes, I think I would stick with the BforB flour. In due course, you might try the Mondako flour to see if that also works. If you continue with this project in relation to what you do at market, a KAAP dough might also merit a try sometime, if only to narrow the possible flour choices.

Quote

I wanted to ask you one other question about when you set-forth the (2.0) Pepe’s clone formula in Reply 153 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17632.msg173159.html#msg173159 Why did you use 448 grams for the total dough ball weight, rather than 453.6 grams? Since I am going to use a bowl residue compensation, why would that matter?

Originally, when you said that the Pepe's dough ball weighed a pound, I thought that meant 453.6 grams. However, when I later revisited Reply 21 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17632.msg171172.html#msg171172, I saw that the weight given on the label for the Pepe's dough is 448 grams, which is rounded to a pound. When I use a bowl residue compensation, I always weigh the dough after it has been made. I then trim the dough weight back to the desired value. For example, if the desired dough weight is 448 grams and I get say, 455 grams when using a bowl residue compensation, I trim the dough back to 448 grams. Otherwise, I am overcompensating for the bowl residue losses.

Peter

Pete-zza · « **Reply #165 on:** February 23, 2012, 07:17:28 PM »

Quote from: norma427 on February 23, 2012, 06:37:48 PM

I called Wal-Mart customer service just a little while ago because I hadn’t received a return phone call from Wal-Mart about the Pepe’s frozen dough balls. I talked to Shon this time and she was very helpful (I had asked Shon to spell her name, because I never heard that name before). I told Shon that I had searched online though Google to find out where to call Pepe’s, but the phone number I found wasn’t active and I couldn’t find much of any other information about them. She said to wait on the line until she contacted merchandising. After a few holds and a couple of calls, she told me the information for Pepe’s. She said they don’t have a phone number for me to contact, but they do have an address. The name and address is Pepe’s Bakery 4 Pysanka Circle, Amsterdam, NY 12010. I asked Shon if that wasn’t strange that Pepe’s Bakery wouldn’t have a phone number for me to call and she said they are in the process of moving and that is why they don’t have a phone number listed. I guess I will now write them a letter. If anyone wants to tell me what questions to write in the letter, let me know.

Norma,

I am sure that I would have a bunch of questions but most of them would perhaps arouse suspicion on their part. So I wouldn't ask them about the carbohydrate values in their Nutrition Facts. I would be interested, however, in knowing what kind of yeast they are using. Also, I'd be interested in knowing if there is anything in the dough that is not listed in their ingredients list. For example, the other day I wondered whether Pepe's used something like PZ-44 in their dough that elevated the carbohydrates value. But when I did a rough calculation, the added carbohydrates from using PZ-44 (based on about 2% of the flour weight) were too small to bridge the carbohydrates gap. This morning, I happened to see a post by Tom Lehmann at Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17884.msg173301.html#msg173301 where Tom discusses the sorts of things that are put into frozen dough balls. Now, I know from other research I have conducted on commercially made frozen dough balls, for example, the frozen dough balls made by Lamonica's, that it is possible to make frozen dough balls without all kinds of additives or conditioners. However, the use of additives and conditioners has become rather pervasive for frozen dough balls. If you do some basic Google searches on frozen pizza dough balls, you will find many examples of this practice.

You might also ask about what the dates mean on their products, and the lifespan of their dough balls.

Do you have a strategy in mind about how you will approach Pepe's with your questions, maybe as a possible user of their dough balls at market and wanting to know what is in their dough balls, or because of allergy or other health-related concerns?

Peter

dmcavanagh · « **Reply #166 on:** February 23, 2012, 07:20:27 PM »

Norma

http://www.trulia.com/homes/New_York/Amsterdam/sold/21266153-4-Pysanka-Cir-Amsterdam-NY-12010

This is certainly not a plant manufacturing frozen pizza dough balls.

Pete-zza · « **Reply #167 on:** February 23, 2012, 07:42:55 PM »

Quote from: dmcavanagh on February 23, 2012, 07:20:27 PM

http://www.trulia.com/homes/New_York/Amsterdam/sold/21266153-4-Pysanka-Cir-Amsterdam-NY-12010

This is certainly not a plant manufacturing frozen pizza dough balls.

Maybe the Pysanka address is just a mail drop for the time being, but I wouldn't hold my breath about getting a response to a letter from Norma. I note that there is a review at the Trulia website by a resident of the home at the Pysanka address, and he is not a Pepe.

Peter

norma427 · « **Reply #168 on:** February 23, 2012, 08:00:14 PM »

Quote from: Pete-zza on February 23, 2012, 06:54:58 PM

Norma,

Yes, I think I would stick with the BforB flour. In due course, you might try the Mondako flour to see if that also works. If you continue with this project in relation to what you do at market, a KAAP dough might also merit a try sometime, if only to narrow the possible flour choices.

Originally, when you said that the Pepe's dough ball weighed a pound, I thought that meant 453.6 grams. However, when I later revisited Reply 21 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17632.msg171172.html#msg171172, I saw that the weight given on the label for the Pepe's dough is 448 grams, which is rounded to a pound. When I use a bowl residue compensation, I always weigh the dough after it has been made. I then trim the dough weight back to the desired value. For example, if the desired dough weight is 448 grams and I get say, 455 grams when using a bowl residue compensation, I trim the dough back to 448 grams. Otherwise, I am overcompensating for the bowl residue losses.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for telling me to stick with the Better for Bread flour for now.

The reason I asked you about the final dough ball weight was because every time I weighed a Pepe’s dough ball they were over 1 lb. I understand what you are saying, but since the Pepe’s dough balls have been over 1 lb., I don’t understand why my (2.0) clone dough ball shouldn’t be a little over a pound. You had posted before that when machines are used to make dough balls there are usually variations in the dough ball weights.

Norma

Pete-zza · « **Reply #169 on:** February 23, 2012, 08:06:24 PM »

Quote from: norma427 on February 23, 2012, 08:00:14 PM

The reason I asked you about the final dough ball weight was because every time I weighed a Pepe’s dough ball they were over 1 lb. I understand what you are saying, but since the Pepe’s dough balls have been over 1 lb., I don’t understand why my (2.0) clone dough ball shouldn’t be a little over a pound. You had posted before that when machines are used to make dough balls there are usually variations in the dough ball weights.

Norma,

I assumed that the Pepe's Nutrition Facts were based on the stated dough weight on the Pepe's package. However, if you'd like, you can scale up the last dough formulation to a pound, or even to the actual dough ball weights you have been getting. In practice, it is possible that some Pepe's dough balls weigh less than what is stated on their packaging or less than what you have been getting.

Peter

norma427 · « **Reply #170 on:** February 23, 2012, 08:07:55 PM »

Quote from: Pete-zza on February 23, 2012, 07:17:28 PM

Norma,

I am sure that I would have a bunch of questions but most of them would perhaps arouse suspicion on their part. So I wouldn't ask them about the carbohydrate values in their Nutrition Facts. I would be interested, however, in knowing what kind of yeast they are using. Also, I'd be interested in knowing if there is anything in the dough that is not listed in their ingredients list. For example, the other day I wondered whether Pepe's used something like PZ-44 in their dough that elevated the carbohydrates value. But when I did a rough calculation, the added carbohydrates from using PZ-44 (based on about 2% of the flour weight) were too small to bridge the carbohydrates gap. This morning, I happened to see a post by Tom Lehmann at Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17884.msg173301.html#msg173301 where Tom discusses the sorts of things that are put into frozen dough balls. Now, I know from other research I have conducted on commercially made frozen dough balls, for example, the frozen dough balls made by Lamonica's, that it is possible to make frozen dough balls without all kinds of additives or conditioners. However, the use of additives and conditioners has become rather pervasive for frozen dough balls. If you do some basic Google searches on frozen pizza dough balls, you will find many examples of this practice.

You might also ask about what the dates mean on their products, and the lifespan of their dough balls.

Do you have a strategy in mind about how you will approach Pepe's with your questions, maybe as a possible user of their dough balls at market and wanting to know what is in their dough balls, or because of allergy or other health-related concerns?

Peter

Peter,

I still will write a letter to see if I get any response. Thanks for your input on what to write. I really don’t have any strategy in mind, except to say I like their dough balls and maybe ask a few questions. I don’t want to tell them that I have a pizza business. They probably could figure that out if they did a Google on me. Pepe’s could find out much more information about me than I can about them.

I don’t really expect any reply, but it is always the same thing, “Nothing ventured nothing gained”.

Norma

norma427 · « **Reply #171 on:** February 23, 2012, 08:12:22 PM »

Quote from: dmcavanagh on February 23, 2012, 07:20:27 PM

Norma

http://www.trulia.com/homes/New_York/Amsterdam/sold/21266153-4-Pysanka-Cir-Amsterdam-NY-12010

This is certainly not a plant manufacturing frozen pizza dough balls.

Dave,

Thanks for the link!

I see it is certainly not a plant that is manufacturing frozen pizza dough balls. I have no idea who lives at that address but that is the address Shon gave me. I wonder who gave her that address.

Maybe I will send a letter or to someone at Amsterdam headquarters. $:-\$

Norma

norma427 · « **Reply #172 on:** February 23, 2012, 08:14:42 PM »

Quote from: Pete-zza on February 23, 2012, 08:06:24 PM

Norma,

I assumed that the Pepe's Nutrition Facts were based on the stated dough weight on the Pepe's package. However, if you'd like, you can scale up the last dough formulation to a pound, or even to the actual dough ball weights you have been getting. In practice, it is possible that some Pepe's dough balls weigh less than what is stated on their packaging or less than what you have been getting.

Peter

Peter,

I understand, but what do you really want me to do in terms of final dough ball weight. I just want to try my attempt the best way you think I should.

Norma

Pete-zza · « **Reply #173 on:** February 23, 2012, 08:44:08 PM »

Quote from: norma427 on February 23, 2012, 08:14:42 PM

I understand, but what do you really want me to do in terms of final dough ball weight. I just want to try my attempt the best way you think I should.

Norma,

Since all the calculations for the dough formulation (2.0) at Reply 153 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17632.msg173159.html#msg173159 are based on a dough ball weight of 448 grams, I think I would go with that. If you'd like to scale back a Pepe's defrosted dough ball weight to 448 grams so that you can do a more accurate side-by-side comparison, you can also do that. At this point, I am more interested in how the higher amount of yeast and the lower amount of salt will work out and whether 2.0 is better than 1.0.

Peter

norma427 · « **Reply #174 on:** February 23, 2012, 09:29:27 PM »

Quote from: Pete-zza on February 23, 2012, 08:44:08 PM

Norma,

Since all the calculations for the dough formulation (2.0) at Reply 153 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17632.msg173159.html#msg173159 are based on a dough ball weight of 448 grams, I think I would go with that. If you'd like to scale back a Pepe's defrosted dough ball weight to 448 grams so that you can do a more accurate side-by-side comparison, you can also do that. At this point, I am more interested in how the higher amount of yeast and the lower amount of salt will work out and whether 2.0 is better than 1.0.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks, I understand now.

Norma

dmcavanagh · « **Reply #175 on:** February 24, 2012, 08:29:36 PM »

Norma

I don't know why I did it, but I did. I found and bought 2 Pepe's frozen doughs in a local Walmart this evening, They are securely tucked in my freezer. I'll warn you, I may do a "spoof" of your recent "Blasphemy Pie" from MPM at SLICE. I won't do it for this week, but be prepared anytime there after!

norma427 · « **Reply #176 on:** February 24, 2012, 09:16:12 PM »

Quote from: dmcavanagh on February 24, 2012, 08:29:36 PM

Norma

I don't know why I did it, but I did. I found and bought 2 Pepe's frozen doughs in a local Walmart this evening, They are securely tucked in my freezer. I'll warn you, I may do a "spoof" of your recent "Blasphemy Pie" from MPM at SLICE. I won't do it for this week, but be prepared anytime there after!

Dave,

Lol, I can’t believe you bought 2 of the Pepe’s dough balls this evening.

I don’t mind if you do a “spoof” of my recent “Blasphemy Pie” this weekend. Do you mind looking to see what date is on the plastic bag your Pepe’s dough balls came in? I think, but am not sure, that the date is the day, month, and year they were manufactured. I am just curious to see what stamp is marked on yours. My dates were almost a year old. If you can purchase those Pepe’s frozen dough balls in your Wal-Mart, Pepe’s or some other business must be producing those darn dough balls.

I have to tell you a funny story. I told theboys (Jeff and Mark) that I had tried some Pepe’s frozen dough balls and they were good. Jeff and Mark don’t like any bromated flours or too many ingredients in their doughs. The other day they were at Shady Maple and found Papa Sal’s frozen dough balls. They told me that the Papa Sal’s frozen dough balls had the same ingredients that Pepe’s dough balls had in them. They bought a wheat frozen dough and a regular frozen dough. They also bought Steve and me both of them and are bringing them to me on Tuesday. I didn’t see the Nutrition Facts, but might email them to see what they say. I am curious if they are anything like the Pepe’s frozen dough balls. $:-\$

Best of luck with your Pepe’s frozen dough balls and may they make great pizzas!

I don’t know if you saw or not, but the Pepe’s frozen dough balls seems to work well after a two day defrost.

Norma

dmcavanagh · « **Reply #177 on:** February 24, 2012, 09:52:18 PM »

Norma

The dough balls were still in the cardboard box that they ship in, it looks like there are 24 to a box, and the box stated that the manufacture date was 1-11-2012. The box still had the Broad St, Amsterdam ,NY address on it, the manufacture date info was on an "add on" strip of tape that was affixed to the side of the box. There was no date info on the bags themselves. My guess is that the whole operation and name "Pepe's" was sold out to another concern. They probably unloaded everything they had including packaging bags and boxes. Amsterdam, NY is a somewhat financially depressed area, most of the oldtime businesses in the downtown area are long gone and replaced by $1 and convenience stores. I don't know for sure if the area could support a bakery the likes of the old time bakeries like I'm sure Pepe's used to be. I may be wrong, but I don't think so. I'll be sure to let you know how "my Pepe's experiment" turns out. It just so happens that I made 2 doughs tonight before I went out shopping and bought the Pepe's doughs. Maybe I'll bake one of each and compare them head to head. Probably won't even be able to tell the difference!

norma427 · « **Reply #178 on:** February 24, 2012, 10:08:27 PM »

Quote from: dmcavanagh on February 24, 2012, 09:52:18 PM

Norma

The dough balls were still in the cardboard box that they ship in, it looks like there are 24 to a box, and the box stated that the manufacture date was 1-11-2012. The box still had the Broad St, Amsterdam ,NY address on it, the manufacture date info was on an "add on" strip of tape that was affixed to the side of the box. There was no date info on the bags themselves. My guess is that the whole operation and name "Pepe's" was sold out to another concern. They probably unloaded everything they had including packaging bags and boxes. Amsterdam, NY is a somewhat financially depressed area, most of the oldtime businesses in the downtown area are long gone and replaced by $1 and convenience stores. I don't know for sure if the area could support a bakery the likes of the old time bakeries like I'm sure Pepe's used to be. I may be wrong, but I don't think so. I'll be sure to let you know how "my Pepe's experiment" turns out. It just so happens that I made 2 doughs tonight before I went out shopping and bought the Pepe's doughs. Maybe I'll bake one of each and compare them head to head. Probably won't even be able to tell the difference!

Dave,

At my local Wal-Mart the plastic bags are also in a cardboard box in the freezer aisle. I didn’t check how many dough balls were in the cardboard boxes. If your dough balls were manufactured on 1/11/2012 your Pepe’s dough balls sure are a lot fresher than mine. It is good you looked at the manufactured date on the cardboard box. I didn’t look at that. The plastic bags of Pepe’s dough balls I bought just had the stamp on the bags. I also am guessing that Pepe’s was sold to another business. I still am trying to figure out how to find out about that. Interesting to hear that Amsterdam, NY is somewhat of a financially depressed area.

I am anxious to know what you think of the Pepe’s dough balls after they are defrosted. My Pepe’s dough was so soft and so easy to open and we thought the Pepe’s dough balls made great pizzas. Will be interested to see what you have to say about them.

Thanks for the info!

Norma

dmcavanagh · « **Reply #179 on:** February 24, 2012, 10:22:04 PM »

I'll give you a detailed account of my results with the doughs Norma. Tomorrow I may go back to the store and see if I can confiscate the cardboard box that the doughs were in. There weren't many doughs left, so apparently someone is buying them. Maybe they have a cult following that I don't know about. Perhaps if I stood by the freezer case long enough a real fan would come along to grab a dough and I could get the real scoop!