The Mystery Dough Pizza for Tomorrow

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

Nice job, especially since I doubted that you would get a response to your letter. At least we now know that most of the information on the Nutrition Facts is correct. I say "most" because I believe that Craig is right on the carbohydrates number (and confirmed by my own calculations). Maybe some day we'll learn what kind of flour Pepe's is using. That would be nice to know if only to tell us whether the gluten mass tests work accurately enough to identify flour type. With respect to the yeast, the amount of the sodium and the positioning of the yeast ahead of the salt in the ingredients list made it almost certain that the yeast was cake yeast.

It will be interesting to see how the IDY version works out. And also how the larger thickness factor works out on your KAAP version with cake yeast.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

Nice job, especially since I doubted that you would get a response to your letter. At least we now know that most of the information on the Nutrition Facts is correct. I say "most" because I believe that Craig is right on the carbohydrates number (and confirmed by my own calculations). Maybe some day we'll learn what kind of flour Pepe's is using. That would be nice to know if only to tell us whether the gluten mass tests work accurately enough to identify flour type. With respect to the yeast, the amount of the sodium and the positioning of the yeast ahead of the salt in the ingredients list made it almost certain that the yeast was cake yeast.

Peter

I also doubted that I would get a response from my letter, but it was interesting to talk to Ralph and find out about their success story.  I recall you and Craig posting about the carbohydrates numbers not being correct.  I wonder how I could find that information out without Ralph becoming suspicious.  I know I have looked at other frozen dough balls and saw they aren’t as high in carbohydrates as Pepe’s are.  I might call Ralph in a few weeks to see if he will tell what kind of flour they use in the Pepe’s frozen dough balls.  Do you know of a way for me to ask that question? 

I still think it is amazing that you knew from the amount of sodium and the positioning of the yeast ahead of the salt in the ingredients list that made it almost certain the yeast was cake yeast.  I never would have been able to figure that out. 

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

The carbohydrates matter is such a technical one and unrelated to issues like allergies, nutritional needs, etc., so you would perhaps arouse suspicion if you raised it with Ralph. In fact, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if Ralph didn't know the answer or that there is even a problem with the label information. You are also correct that other brands of frozen dough balls in the one-pound size have carbohydrate numbers in the twenties (grams). I recently did a search of several brands of 16-ounce frozen dough balls and the carbohydrates were in the mid-twenties.

I am not sure how best to ask Ralph about the flour. You might tell him that you made pizzas with the Pepe's dough balls and, to you, the crusts tasted and from the color looked like they were made with bread flour, and ask him if that is what they used. You might also be able to concoct some kind of story about how your oven and bake times are affected by the type of flour, especially getting the right crust color without making the crust too dry. I think even I would buy that story .

One other question you might ask Ralph is what size pizza is best made using the Pepe's dough. There may be no best answer to that question but he might offer up something to guide you.

You might also want to think about when it would be best to call Ralph back. Maybe it should be sooner rather than later while you and the Pepe's dough are still fresh in his mind (of course, no one will ever forget you ).

On the matter of salt and cake yeast, what helped me nail down the amounts of cake yeast and salt to use in the Pepe's clone doughs was the results of the hydration bake test that you conducted. That allowed me to play around with the expanded dough calculating tool to get a set of values for the water and flour that yielded a total water content of around 45.1% (the results from the hydration bake test). That then allowed me to come up with an amount of flour against which to test the amount of sodium listed in the Pepe's Nutrition Facts. Once I got the salt number (baker's percent), I knew from the ingredients list that the percent of cake yeast had to be higher. So, I picked an amount of cake yeast that I thought would fit a frozen dough application. In so doing, I drew upon not only what I have learned over the years about frozen dough but also our recent experiences over at the Mellow Mushroom thread. There is nothing particularly difficult about this kind of analysis but it does require knowledge of ingredients and methods and being able to handle the math. We saved a lot of time because of the hydration test results and the gluten mass test results. You don't get that kind of information from labels, ingredients lists or Nutrition Facts. Of course, it has taken me years to get to this point. It was also a great help that the Pepe's dough is unbaked (which means that you don't have to worry what baking does to the numbers in the Nutritions Facts) and comprises only flour, water, salt and cake yeast.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

The carbohydrates matter is such a technical one and unrelated to issues like allergies, nutritional needs, etc., so you would perhaps arouse suspicion if you raised it with Ralph. In fact, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if Ralph didn't know the answer or that there is even a problem with the label information. You are also correct that other brands of frozen dough balls in the one-pound size have carbohydrate numbers in the twenties (grams). I recently did a search of several brands of 16-ounce frozen dough balls and the carbohydrates were in the mid-twenties.

I am not sure how best to ask Ralph about the flour. You might tell him that you made pizzas with the Pepe's dough balls and, to you, the crusts tasted and from the color looked like they were made with bread flour, and ask him if that is what they used. You might also be able to concoct some kind of story about how your oven and bake times are affected by the type of flour, especially getting the right crust color without making the crust too dry. I thin even I would buy that story .

One other question you might ask Ralph is what size pizza is best made using the Pepe's dough. There may be no best answer to that question but he might offer up something to guide you.

You might also want to think about when it would be best to call Ralph back. Maybe it should be sooner rather than later while you and the Pepe's dough are still fresh in his mind (of course, no one will ever forget you ).

On the matter of salt and cake yeast, what helped me nail down the amounts of cake yeast and salt to use in the Pepe's clone doughs was the results of the hydration bake test that you conducted. That allowed me to play around with the expanded dough calculating tool to get a set of values for the water and flour that yielded a total water content of around 45.1% (the results from the hydration bake test). That then allowed me to come up with an amount of flour against which to test the amount of sodium listed in the Pepe's Nutrition Facts. Once I got the salt number (baker's percent), I knew from the ingredients list that the percent of cake yeast had to be higher. So, I picked an amount of cake yeast that I thought would fit a frozen dough application. In so doing, I drew upon not only what I have learned over the years about frozen dough but also our recent experiences over at the Mellow Mushroom thread. There is nothing particularly difficult about this kind of analysis but it does require knowledge of ingredients and methods and being able to handle the math. We saved a lot of time because of the hydration test results and the gluten mass test results. You don't get that kind of information from labels, ingredients lists or Nutrition Facts. Of course, it has taken me years to get to this point. It was also a great help that the Pepe's dough is unbaked (which means that you don't have to worry what baking does to the numbers in the Nutritions Facts) and comprises only flour, water, salt and cake yeast.

Peter

Peter,

I know I would probably arose suspicion if I asked about the carbohydrate numbers, but I could tell Ralph I have looked at Nutrition Facts on other frozen dough balls. He already knows I said I look at dates and ingredient lists. I did also try those NY frozen dough balls at one time and recently look at their Nutrition Facts are saw they were lower in carbohydrate numbers than Pepe’s.  I could also tell Ralph about Sal’s frozen dough balls and what carbohydrates on listed on those Nutrition Facts.  Maybe I will arose suspicion, but if Ralph isn’t aware that his number for carbohydrates probably is wrong, he might never have a chance to correct it.  Ralph told me he supplies the bakery with all the plastic bags they need for the frozen dough balls, so Frank might see the plastic bags.  I also told Ralph yesterday in my search to find Pepe’s, I saw the other frozen dough balls (Pepe’s) that listed bromated flour on the ingredient list.  Ralph didn’t say anything about that.  I will also tell Ralph I will send him the one bag that has the date stamped on it, so he can actually see what I was talking about.

I didn’t tell Ralph I had a pizza stand but did tell him I have a pizza stone and fool around with some pizzas at home.  I think your story about the flour is a good one and might use that to try and find out what kind of flour Pepe’s uses.  If “snail mail” still works, I never know what is possible.  

I have to go pick up flour today and go to market, but if I have time tonight I might call Ralph again, or if not wait until Wednesday or Thursday.  That is a good one about no one ever forgetting me.   I am persistent in some ways.

Good to hear that what helped you nail down the amounts of cake yeast and salt to use in the Pepe’s clone doughs was the results of the hydration bake test that I conducted.  

I know you have researched and studied frozen dough balls for a long while.  Good to also hear that the MM thread’s recent experiences also helped you.  I think this kind of analysis is very difficult because I sure don’t have the knowledge of ingredients, methods, and being able to handle the math like you do.  You are one persistent person too, in many ways.   I know it has taken you years to get to the point you are now.  I never will get to that point.  I never thought about what the baking does to the numbers in the Nutrition Facts.  

Norma

[norma427]

I called Ralph a little while ago, and don’t think I am going to get much information from him, or either he doesn’t know the answers to the questions I was asking him.

I first started by asking what size pizzas were the Pepe’s dough balls for if I wanted to make a NY style pizza.  Ralph said they used to make 11” skins for sale and they used to be 10 oz. and they made about the right thickness for NY style pizzas.  He said he guesses that the frozen Pepe’s dough balls would make 16” pizzas.  I then asked Ralph if they wouldn’t be to thin for a NY style pizza and he said he didn’t think so.

I told Ralph I also looked at ingredients and Nutrition Facts on all products and saw that Pepe’s were much higher in carbohydrates than other frozen dough balls I have tried.  I stated what were some of the ingredients in some of the other frozen dough balls, including what I thought might be dough conditioners. I said I liked that Pepe’s frozen dough balls didn’t have those ingredients in them and are natural. I then told Ralph I had looked at and tried Papa’s Sal’s frozen dough balls and New York frozen dough balls (but didn’t like them) and had noticed that the carbohydrates were much lower in carbohydrates than Pepe’s.  Ralph told me since they use much more wheat flour and not the other ingredients like dough conditioners, sugar, or oil that is why their product is higher in carbohydrates.  I said I didn’t understand that.  He said since their product contained so much wheat products and not all the other added ingredients the carbohydrates naturally in wheat are very high, so that is why their frozen pizza dough is higher in carbohydrates than the other frozen dough balls I tried. 

I also told Ralph that I had tried to make some of my own dough with KAAP, KABF, and also some high-gluten flour that I found at our local country store and I liked their Pepe’s dough much better in how it browned, how it stretched out and baked.  I asked if he knew if bread flour was used in their dough and all he said when using high-gluten flour in pizza dough and the resulting skins stretches out pizza dough much better than using other flours.  I said either I didn’t make my pizza dough with high-gluten flour right or either Pepe’s is a much better dough than I can make.  Ralph didn’t make any comment about that.  In the end I didn’t find out what kind of flour Pepe’s uses, but at least I tried. 

I asked Ralph if he wanted me to send the plastic bag with the date stamped on and he said I really didn’t have to do that.  I thanked Ralph for the information.

I guess that is the last conversation I will have with Ralph.

Norma

[dmcavanagh]

Thanks for the follow up Norma, the mystery is (almost) finally solved. For all we know, the big bakery may well be "Bimbo", the huge bakery conglomerate that owns most of the big names in the industry. They bake in a modern, very large facility in Albany, NY. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if that is the final piece to the puzzle.

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

I an unaware of any flour that can yield total carbohydrates of 8 x 36 = 288 grams for the amount of flour that we are talking about in this thread.

Generally speaking, the higher the protein content the lower the carbohydrate value. For example, consider these carbohydrate values per 100 grams of flour:

All Trumps: 70.6 grams , or 195.96 grams total (for Pepe's 2.0) (14.2 +/- 0.3% protein)
KASL: 70.26 grams, or 194.99 grams total (14.2 +/- 0.2%)
KABF: 72.53 grams, or 201.32 grams total (12.7 +/- 0.2%)
Better for Bread: 73.10 grams, or 202.9 grams total (12.0 +/- 0.3%)
KAAP: 72.73 grams, or 201.88 grams total (11.8 +/- 0.2%)
Generic AP flour (10% protein): 76 grams, or 210.95 grams total (10%)
GM Cameo pastry flour: 77.3 grams, or 214.56 grams (9.0 +/- 0.9%)
GM Purasnow cake flour: 78.3 grams, or 217.34 grams, or 217.33 grams (8.2%)

There are a couple of flours that have higher than average carbohydrate values. Consider these two Pendleton flours:

Pendleton Power: 77.9 grams, or 216.23 grams total (13.0 +/- 0.3%)
Pendleton Mondako: 73.90 grams, or 205.12 grams total (12.0 +/- 0.3%)

As you can see from the above, none of those flours comes anywhere close to 288 grams. The yeast also contains some carbohydrates, but with the 7.63 grams of cake yeast in Pepe's 2.0, you can add 1.35 grams of carbohydrates to the above numbers.

I suppose that Pepe's may have had flours milled especially for them, but I am hard pressed to make out a case of any flour that can deliver the carbohydrate values in the Pepe's Nutrition Facts. Well, you might say that maybe Pepe's was using more flour. Using the BforB flour as an example, to get a total of 288 grams of carbohydrate, you would need (100 x 288)/73.1 = 393.98 grams of flour. That in 13.9 ounces. The whole dough ball weighs around a pound. That leaves 2.1 grams for the water, yeast and salt. It doesn't compute.

I also considered that maybe Pepe's added vital wheat gluten to its dough, which is commonly done for frozen dough balls. However, that only makes the carbohydrate values go down even more, for the reasons mentioned above.

Peter

[norma427]

Thanks for the follow up Norma, the mystery is (almost) finally solved. For all we know, the big bakery may well be "Bimbo", the huge bakery conglomerate that owns most of the big names in the industry. They bake in a modern, very large facility in Albany, NY. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if that is the final piece to the puzzle.

Dave,

I really don’t know, and didn’t have time to search for maybe which big bakery Pepe’s is having their dough balls made at, but it might well be Bimbo.  I really haven’t heard of them before, but since you live in NY you know what big bakeries are there.  Thanks for that information!  When I have time I will search a little more.  I wouldn’t be surprised either if the information you gave could be the final piece of the puzzle. 

Norma

[norma427]

Norma,

I an unaware of any flour that can yield total carbohydrates of 8 x 36 = 288 grams for the amount of flour that we are talking about in this thread.

Generally speaking, the higher the protein content the lower the carbohydrate value. For example, consider these carbohydrate values per 100 grams of flour:

All Trumps: 70.6 grams , or 195.96 grams total (for Pepe's 2.0) (14.2 +/- 0.3% protein)
KASL: 70.26 grams, or 194.99 grams total (14.2 +/- 0.2%)
KABF: 72.53 grams, or 201.32 grams total (12.7 +/- 0.2%)
Better for Bread: 73.10 grams, or 202.9 grams total (12.0 +/- 0.3%)
KAAP: 72.73 grams, or 201.88 grams total (11.8 +/- 0.2%)
Generic AP flour (10% protein): 76 grams, or 210.95 grams total (10%)
GM Cameo pastry flour: 77.3 grams, or 214.56 grams (9.0 +/- 0.9%)
GM Purasnow cake flour: 78.3 grams, or 217.34 grams, or 217.33 grams (8.2%)

There are a couple of flours that have higher than average carbohydrate values. Consider these two Pendleton flours:

Pendleton Power: 77.9 grams, or 216.23 grams total (13.0 +/- 0.3%)
Pendleton Mondako: 73.90 grams, or 205.12 grams total (12.0 +/- 0.3%)

As you can see from the above, none of those flours comes anywhere close to 288 grams. The yeast also contains some carbohydrates, but with the 7.63 grams of cake yeast in Pepe's 2.0, you can add 1.35 grams of carbohydrates to the above numbers.

I suppose that Pepe's may have had flours milled especially for them, but I am hard pressed to make out a case of any flour that can deliver the carbohydrate values in the Pepe's Nutrition Facts. Well, you might say that maybe Pepe's was using more flour. Using the BforB flour as an example, to get a total of 288 grams of carbohydrate, you would need (100 x 288)/73.1 = 393.98 grams of flour. That in 13.9 ounces. The whole dough ball weighs around a pound. That leaves 2.1 grams for the water, yeast and salt. It doesn't compute.

I also considered that maybe Pepe's added vital wheat gluten to its dough, which is commonly done for frozen dough balls. However, that only makes the carbohydrate values go down even more, for the reasons mentioned above.

Peter

Peter,

I know you can do the calculations and know about all kinds of flour and the amount of carbohydrates in them.  Thanks for posting all those flours and letting anyone see that there is no way that those flours have a carbohydrate value that would give that many carbohydrates in the Nutrition Facts for Pepe’s dough, even with cake yeast added.  I also understand it doesn’t compute from Craig’s and your posts before.  When I was talking to Ralph either he didn’t want to really tell me about what flour they are using or really doesn’t know that the carbohydrate value in the Nutrition Facts is wrong. 

I didn’t know some frozen doughs had VWG in them before.  I also didn’t know that VWG makes the numbers of carbohydrates go lower.  Thanks for that information. 

Maybe whatever company did the testing for the carbohydrate number might have also got it wrong.  I don’t know what kinds of tests they do for all the numbers in the Nutrition Facts for dough. 

I don’t think we will ever find out what kind of flour Pepe’s uses in their formulation or why the carbohydrate number is wrong.  At least we know your Pepe’s 2.0 clone formulation did work well.

Norma

[dmcavanagh]

Norma, this is Bimbo   http://bimbobakeriesusa.com/

[norma427]

Norma, this is Bimbo   http://bimbobakeriesusa.com/

Dave,

Thanks for the link to Bimbo.    I was looking at their website a little last evening. 

Norma

[norma427]

The experiments with the Pepe’s 2.0 clone pizza with cake yeast and KAAP and the Pepe’s 18” 3.0 clone pizza with IDY and Better for Bread flour both went well today.  They both fermented about the same, but the Pepe’s  3.0 18” dough ball didn’t get the same bubble on top, but the dough felt about the same.  I had the dough ball for the Pepe’s 18” 3.0 clone in a bigger plastic container so I could understand it might have fermented a little different. 

Both dough balls opened almost the same and baked almost the same.  The only differences in the bakes of the two pizzas was the Pepe’s 2.0 clone pizza did brown a little more on the bottom crust and also was a little more crispy.  I don’t know why that was. The pizza made with the KAAP didn’t brown as much on the rim, but still was good.  Both of the pizzas tasted very good.  We thought both pizzas tasted better than the pizzas made with the Pepe’s dough balls.

The first set of pictures are the Pepe’s 2.0 clone with cake yeast and KAAP and the second set of pictures are the Pepe’s 3.0 clone with IDY and Better for Bread flour.

I don’t think I have tried any NY style pizza with KAAP before.

These are the videos of Steve cutting both pizzas with a pizza cutter.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIylCfLcjjw" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIylCfLcjjw</a>

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pz171wWbOx8" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pz171wWbOx8</a>

Norma

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