Author Topic: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil  (Read 49729 times)

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Offline pizzasmut

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Okay, here's my update. I'd like to preface this with the fact that I'm living in Europe and my options for ingredients are pretty damn poor. Certainly better cheese and tomato sauce will take this up a notch or two.

4 hour room temp rise, pushed it down and it went in the fridge for 48 hours. Had a little bit of that wine smell, but the beer flavor was still missing to me. I think I'll try a little barley malt next time to see if that helps. I was using fresh yeast so I thought it would come through this time. Even upped it to almost two teaspoons, but no love.

Oven was up around 475 on a stone. Rubbed the inside of the pan with corn oil and use a little polenta sprinkled in that before the dough went it. Used my method of putting a cookie sheet over the pizza for the cook, and it was done in about 25 minutes. Sausage was a 20% fat 80/20 blend of pork and beef because it was all I could find. Next time I go with as low fat as possible and only pork.

Crust was done, nice and crispy on the outside and soft on the inside, but still a bit heavy. Has anybody done a mix of lower protein and AP? Also, would a dough conditioner (as I'm sure those big chains must use) help? No idea where I'd get cream of tartar, but could order if it will make the difference.

Any ideas on the beer flavor? This was for sure my best pie so far, but dream of that Malnati's beer flavor.  :drool:
« Last Edit: June 21, 2016, 12:31:37 PM by pizzasmut »

Offline DesertDance

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I've read through this entire thread.  Is there any reason why you don't dissolve the dough in the water prior to adding it?  Most yeast recipes do that.  I know you just sprinkle it in the dough when it's half mixed.  Why do you do that?

Offline pythonic

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I've read through this entire thread.  Is there any reason why you don't dissolve the dough in the water prior to adding it?  Most yeast recipes do that.  I know you just sprinkle it in the dough when it's half mixed.  Why do you do that?

Using just instant dry yeast.  If using active you must dissolve though.
If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball.

Offline pythonic

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Okay, here's my update. I'd like to preface this with the fact that I'm living in Europe and my options for ingredients are pretty damn poor. Certainly better cheese and tomato sauce will take this up a notch or two.

4 hour room temp rise, pushed it down and it went in the fridge for 48 hours. Had a little bit of that wine smell, but the beer flavor was still missing to me. I think I'll try a little barley malt next time to see if that helps. I was using fresh yeast so I thought it would come through this time. Even upped it to almost two teaspoons, but no love.

Oven was up around 475 on a stone. Rubbed the inside of the pan with corn oil and use a little polenta sprinkled in that before the dough went it. Used my method of putting a cookie sheet over the pizza for the cook, and it was done in about 25 minutes. Sausage was a 20% fat 80/20 blend of pork and beef because it was all I could find. Next time I go with as low fat as possible and only pork.

Crust was done, nice and crispy on the outside and soft on the inside, but still a bit heavy. Has anybody done a mix of lower protein and AP? Also, would a dough conditioner (as I'm sure those big chains must use) help? No idea where I'd get cream of tartar, but could order if it will make the difference.

Any ideas on the beer flavor? This was for sure my best pie so far, but dream of that Malnati's beer flavor.  :drool:

Try fresh yeast for beer flavor.  Huge difference.
If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball.

Offline DesertDance

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I'm gathering everything to try your recipes.  This week my pans arrived.  Both 9".  They are different.  The one ordered from Malnati's is heavier, made in USA and 1/2" shorter than the one I got from webrestaurantstore.com.  Now I get to season them about 4 times!  :-) 

I also finally found whole milk mozzarella at a store here in California named Smart & Final.  It caters to restaurants.  The brand was Galbani http://galbanicheese.com/pub/sorrentogalbani-11377800477_1_1396037480.pdf .  I got a 5 lb. brick for $11.00  It melts like a dream and is really stretchy!  I'm still driven crazy that I live in a dairy cow town but they ship everything to WI!!  I'll take my cheese from Buffalo, NY!

I couldn't find your preferred brand of tomatoes here but I did find Certo San Marzano plum tomatoes.  Also bought some seeds so I can grow my own. 

Next I felt really smug having the butcher coarsely grind a pork shoulder for $0.99 lb, so it cost me $6.00!  OMG!  The stuff is so lean I had to add olive oil just to get a crust on it for a test fry.  Now I had to go to the Spanish translation thing online and I'm ready to go to one of the Mexican Meat Markets around here to ask for una libra de grasa de cerdo otherwise known as one lb. of pork fat.  I'll divide it in 6 parts and grind it with my 6 lbs of ground pork, one lb at a time, and hopefully it will add flavor and juiciness to my homemade sausage.

I'm planning to season the pans and make the dough this weekend (2 batches) and have the neighbors over for a test run mid week.  Wish me luck!

I only have one pizza stone, but double ovens.  Do I need another stone for two pizzas, or can I do one without?  They are pretty cheap at webRestaurantStore.com.  I love grilling our thin crusts.  Might need a pizza peel too.  They are cheap there also.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2016, 05:22:03 PM by DesertDance »

Offline alliekat

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I am a new forum member and have a question regarding your Feb. 2014 post where you provided the process for making the Lou Malnati's pizza dough. In that post you said "Place stone on 2nd rack and preheat to 425.  Preheat stone for additional 45 mins.  ". I am inferring from this that you place your deep dish pizza pan on a pizza stone when baking the pizza. Can you confirm? Just want to make sure I'm understanding your process completely. Yours is the first recipe/process that looks like it results in the Lou Malnati's crust I an craving. I used to live in Chicago and really miss Lou's pizza and am dying to try to make it myself. Thx.

Offline vcb

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Not sure who's post that was, but you don't preheat your pan -just the oven and the stone, which should be on the lowest rack.
If you're baking at 425, I'd recommend preheating your oven & stone for an hour at 500 degrees, then turn down the oven to your chosen baking temp right before you put your pizza in the oven.

** update - that was Pythonic's post: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30152.msg301030#msg301030
« Last Edit: June 27, 2016, 08:33:23 PM by vcb »
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Offline DesertDance

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Nate, I used your recipe exactly.  Even bought a kitchen weighing thingy on Amazon that does grams.  I was kind of mystified that there is only 1/4 tsp IDY to the thing, but I followed that also.  I put 3 batches in the fridge.  It's been 24 hours.  I see nothing has grown.  Nothing has doubled or even swollen. ???  Company is coming Friday night, and I'm making two pizzas.  They are expecting authentic Chicago deep dish!

Now what?  Do I start over with more yeast?

I winged my first one with my own sour dough starter (began it in Denver in 2008) and it turned out great.  Doubled quickly.  But I'm trying to be authentic here.  I'm getting panicked.  Today is Wed.  I can start again.  Maybe let it rise in the warm kitchen and THEN put it in the fridge?  I can't serve my neighbors nothing!

Thanks for your help

Offline Garvey

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Nate...  I put 3 batches in the fridge.  It's been 24 hours.  I see nothing has grown.  Nothing has doubled or even swollen. ???  Company is coming Friday night, and I'm making two pizzas.  They are expecting authentic Chicago deep dish!

Now what?  Do I start over with more yeast?

First of all, I'm not Nate, but I'm here to help.

Secondly, never make any recipe for the first time for company.  That's hosting rule #1.   ;D

Finally, forget the "doubling." Deep dish dough doesn't necessarily do that, especially not cold rise dough.  Look at it more closely.  Pick it up.  Does it deflate a little?  Does it have an airy structure?  If your yeast is good, 1/4 tsp will leaven anything.  Remember, yeast multiplies exponentially.  You're probably fine.

Offline mrmojo1

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Amen Nate!!!  heh heh!!  when using packet yeast use try 2 packets from 2 different packets of 3 in case you get bad yeast and yes i have gotten bad yeast!!...dead...nothing...but i have found the jar of ADY AND IDY  to last long and are very good.  also add water to your yeast as the 1st part of your dough making process, wait and watch after  5-10 min you should start to see some activity  add a pinch of sugar...you should start to see a lot more activity!  then add the rest of your ingredients.  i now add salt when i add the dry ingredients, sometimes when i added salt with water and yeast i think i got a yeast kill.....i also like the saf yeast!  it has remained potent going over 1 year in the fridge!  lastly i always add a little more when it comes to yeast...i am yeast generous, i don't think I've ever regretted it...but activate it first and you won't lose!!  and i think you got it right!  a long cold ferment.  this dough is heavy!!  and oily in my opinion!  but delicious!! 
"My Doctor says I swallow a lot of aggression.  Along with a lot of pizzas!!"

Offline DesertDance

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Tonight's the night! 

This morning I took the dough balls out of the fridge. I took 2 back-ups and 1 Fail. Thanks to advice of a friend, I tore open the Fail (Nate's Recipe), patted it out, sprinkled more yeast, flipped it, more yeast, and softly patted it back into shape. You are supposed to handle this dough as little as possible. I will say, that fail was loaded with yummy yeast pockets when I pulled it apart.

So this morning here is the result of my two pizza dough attempts. The two back ups are for 2 10" pizzas. My pans are 9" so I'll have to cut some off and freeze for another day. The small ball is the FAIL, now rejuvenating on the kitchen counter with additional yeast.  The FAIL doesn't smell like anything.  The two Back-ups smell like beer.

I'll post pictures of the finished pizzas.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2016, 01:18:32 PM by DesertDance »

Offline pythonic

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Looks good.  Let us know how it goes.
If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball.


Offline pythonic

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Tonight's the night! 

This morning I took the dough balls out of the fridge. I took 2 back-ups and 1 Fail. Thanks to advice of a friend, I tore open the Fail (Nate's Recipe), patted it out, sprinkled more yeast, flipped it, more yeast, and softly patted it back into shape. You are supposed to handle this dough as little as possible. I will say, that fail was loaded with yummy yeast pockets when I pulled it apart.

So this morning here is the result of my two pizza dough attempts. The two back ups are for 2 10" pizzas. My pans are 9" so I'll have to cut some off and freeze for another day. The small ball is the FAIL, now rejuvenating on the kitchen counter with additional yeast.  The FAIL doesn't smell like anything.  The two Back-ups smell like beer.

I'll post pictures of the finished pizzas.

Before putting into fridge for the cold ferment I would still do a 2hr blast of 100-110 degrees in your oven to get the yeast started.  As soon as it oven hits that temp turn it off.
If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball.

Offline DesertDance

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Thanks to all of you for your suggestions.  They will help me improve next time. 

I made the two pizzas.  The guests arrived and commented on the wonderful aroma.  A little tip.  I saved the watery juice when I was draining the tomatoes for the sauce, blended it with watermelon, jalapeno, cucumber, onion, etc, and served everyone spicy Watermelon Gazpacho Shooters as we cut the pizzas.

I put the Fail in my new (well seasoned) pan from Malnati's.  I put the backup in my new (well seasoned) pan from webrestaurantstore.  That way I could tell them apart.  We were unable to get either one out of the pans, so we had to take our slices IN the pan.  The guests knew we were comparing crusts.  Fillings were identical.

The guests raved about the backup crust.  "It's so buttery and I've never had a crust this good." "I'll come here again for this pizza!  How about tomorrow?"  They loved the FAIL too, but the crust was too thin and a little hard.  The backup won this race.  I'll try Nate's recipe again with GOOD yeast, but just for me and hubby.  Even with my rescue operations there just wasn't enough to cover the pan bottom and up the sides.  Luckily I had leftover dough from the backup (designed for a 10" pan), so I was able to patch.

Here are the photos.  It was a little hard to get a shot of the side of the crust cuz we were actually enjoying our guests.  My computer won't post all the photos in one post, so I'll have to do more posts.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2016, 11:46:04 AM by DesertDance »

Offline DesertDance

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Here is a photo of the dough pressed in the pans.

Offline DesertDance

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Here is a photo pre baking.  Malnati's pan is 1/2" shorter than the one from Webrestaurantstore.  I used it for the fail because there just wasn't enough Fail dough.

Offline DesertDance

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Baked Pizza in the Fail dough.

Offline DesertDance

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And the Backup Baked...

Offline pythonic

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What recipe did you use for the backup dough?
If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball.

Offline DesertDance

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I used http://kpbworld.com/cook_n/recipes/pizza_dough_dd_cornmeal.html but substituted semolina for the corn meal.  It's not anything like your recipe, but it was really tasty.  I might play with it a little, but I still want to have success with yours!  The wife of the couple that had dinner stopped by today and told me that her husband hasn't stopped raving about that pizza they had over here last night!  Woo Hoo!  They loved the fail too, but the backup won.

Offline mugwump

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So is the crisco still used in the pan instead of oil?  I used to use the crisco, but in the past few years it's been oil -- similar to the old Lou Malnati videos that used to circulate around here.

Going by the post above, I went to a local Smart & Final and got a 5 lbs block of Galbani whole milk mozzarella.  That brand used to be Precious, and I will be very interested to see how it melts compared to my typical brand Frigo (saputo / stella) which costs more.  Taste wise, the Frigo tastes better but it seems a bit harder.

Good approach to sauce:  1 can Trader Joe's whole tomatoes no salt, a few pulses in a food processor to chop them, drain for a minute or two, and 1/2 small can of "Contadina Paste with Italian Herbs" mixed in.  That's it.  The flavored paste gives the sauce a commercial taste that kids like.  Contadina was the original Chicago canned tomato brand.

Crust wise, my latest formula seems to be the following for a 14": 
Caputo 00 Flour 154 grams
King Arthur Bread Flour 222 grams
Water (44%) 165 grams
SAF Instant Dry Yeast (3%) 11 grams
Salt (1%) 4 grams
Olive Oil (4%) 15 grams (not extra-virgin)
Oil (17%) 64 grams
Sugar (2%) 7 grams
Total: 643g

The instant yeast is great: just mix it in with the dry ingredients, add in the warm water and oils, minimal kneading, wait 20 minutes until it starts to rise, then toss it into the fridge for a few days.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2016, 02:59:54 AM by mugwump »

Offline DesertDance

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@Mugwump, I used butter flavored Crisco to grease my pans.  Corn and Olive oils IN the dough.

Tonight, hubby will be out of town, so I retrieved one of my "fail dough balls" from the fridge, and found a cute little cast iron pan in the garage in which to bake a personal pizza.  The pan belonged to my late MIL, and it's from CHICAGO, so it should work fine!  8" in diam.  Since the "Fail" dough was too small for a 9", it should be fine here.  Since it's just me, and I don't want to open a whole can of tomatoes, making my own sauce from garden grown ones.  The sauce is amazing!  All I did was scald to remove the skins.  Then I boiled the tomatoes for a little bit.  Let them cool and crushed them with my fingers.  Strained the juice a few times.  Perfect.  And so sweet!  Nothing like the canned ones.  Just added some salt and oregano. 
« Last Edit: July 07, 2016, 07:51:55 PM by DesertDance »


 

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