First Chicago Style Pizza

[jeffereynelson]

I am a huge neapolitan pie fan, and normally stick to that style, but my wife always says she wants chicago, so I thought I'd try it for her. I used VCB's recipe because it was the first one I quickly found.

I just had some questions,
-How tall/thick should the curst be ideally at its highest point?
-How do you know when it's done baking, should the sauce start to thicken up?
-The recipe I used for the size pan I had wasn't even close for me. Have others had the same issue? I used probably 1.5x to fill a 9 inch pan.

So heres a pic, just tell me everything thats wrong if you would so I could make it better next time. I purposely didn't use chunky tomatoes because my wife doesn't care for it. I used Pomi strained tomatoes.  Thanks

[vcb]

I am a huge neapolitan pie fan, and normally stick to that style, but my wife always says she wants chicago, so I thought I'd try it for her. I used VCB's recipe because it was the first one I quickly found.

I just had some questions,
-How tall/thick should the curst be ideally at its highest point?
-How do you know when it's done baking, should the sauce start to thicken up?
-The recipe I used for the size pan I had wasn't even close for me. Have others had the same issue? I used probably 1.5x to fill a 9 inch pan.

So heres a pic, just tell me everything thats wrong if you would so I could make it better next time. I purposely didn't use chunky tomatoes because my wife doesn't care for it. I used Pomi strained tomatoes.  Thanks

Your photo looks great to me!

Thanks for trying out the recipe! Did you use the one from RealDeepDish.com or the older one that I posted in this forum a while back?
My recipe from RDD tells you to make an outer lip about 1 to 1-1/2 inches high, or about 1/2 inch below the top of your pan.
Thickness of the bottom crust can vary, but if you're anywhere between 1/4 inch and 1/2 inch thick after baking, you're probably in the ballpark. With cheese, sauce and other toppings, a deep dish pizza can, in total, come up to a thickness of 1 to 1-1/2 inches, or up to the height of the outer lip of the crust.

From the photo you've posted, I don't see anything wrong with your pizza.
We all have different preferences when it comes to our pizza sauce.
I like to use Glen Muir Crushed w/ basil, straight out of the can.
Others in this forum have varied preferences and methods for tomatoes.

Please tell us what your experience was.
What ingredients did you use and how much?
What temp and how long did you bake?
You said you used a 9" pan. What kind?
What did you like or not like about your first attempt?

[CDNpielover]

awesome rocker knife, I wish I had one of those!

[jeffereynelson]

Hey the recipe I had used was from a post just a couple down the forum, the link was http://realdeepdish.com/RDDHolyGrail2011.pdf 

As I said before I really stick to neapolitan pies, and so this was much different. The dough behaves so differently because of the huge amounts of oil used in the recipe, so the rising was very different and not as pronounced. But once I handled the dough it was much lighter than it looked. I believe I let it is rise for right about ~2 hours, but because it wasn't rising like I expected, I had it rise at a very warm temp. I liked making it because it was so easy compared to neo pie.

ingedients I used KA BF, albertsons brand motz, falls brand italian sausage, some deli pepperoni, and the pomi strained tomatoes. Oh I also subbed veg oil for corn oil bc it was what I had.

I used the exact % you listed in the link I gave, and I also used the exact temps. My oven cooks very quick for some reason, and I always turn it down ~25 cooler than recommended for all recipes. So the pizza cooked in about 28 minutes.

I honestly don't know what type of pan it was, it is a nicer round I know that, because it was a gift from people who only buy expensive stuff.

It's hard for me to know what I wish I liked better because I really don't have too much to compare it too. i have never had amazing deep dish pizza before. One thing I noticed is that the cheese wasn't totally melty like when it is on top of the pizza, also the crust texture in the thicker parts may have been a bit off.

Thanks for your help and feed back.

[vcb]

Hey the recipe I had used was from a post just a couple down the forum, the link was http://realdeepdish.com/RDDHolyGrail2011.pdf 

As I said before I really stick to neapolitan pies, and so this was much different. The dough behaves so differently because of the huge amounts of oil used in the recipe, so the rising was very different and not as pronounced. But once I handled the dough it was much lighter than it looked. I believe I let it is rise for right about ~2 hours, but because it wasn't rising like I expected, I had it rise at a very warm temp. I liked making it because it was so easy compared to neo pie.

ingedients I used KA BF, albertsons brand motz, falls brand italian sausage, some deli pepperoni, and the pomi strained tomatoes. Oh I also subbed veg oil for corn oil bc it was what I had.

I used the exact % you listed in the link I gave, and I also used the exact temps. My oven cooks very quick for some reason, and I always turn it down ~25 cooler than recommended for all recipes. So the pizza cooked in about 28 minutes.

I honestly don't know what type of pan it was, it is a nicer round I know that, because it was a gift from people who only buy expensive stuff.

It's hard for me to know what I wish I liked better because I really don't have too much to compare it too. i have never had amazing deep dish pizza before. One thing I noticed is that the cheese wasn't totally melty like when it is on top of the pizza, also the crust texture in the thicker parts may have been a bit off.

Thanks for your help and feed back.

How did it taste? If it tasted good, that's half the battle.

It's hard to tell if your crust came out right because we only have the one picture of your uncut pizza to go by,
 and it sounds like you're not very familiar with deep dish crust, so I'll give you my impressions the best I can,
but it might help you to read thru some of my Deep Dish 101 and Pizza Rants articles
on Realdeepdish.com to familiarize yourself more with the style .
RELEVANT ARTICLES ABOUT DEEP DISH CRUST:
http://www.realdeepdish.com/2009/06-09-the-long-awaited-pizza-rant-3/
http://www.realdeepdish.com/2011/12-19-deep-dish-101-lesson-2-the-basics/

It sounds like you did everything OK, although I recommend using all-purpose flour instead of bread flour.
A 9" deep dish typically takes about 25-30 minutes to bake, so you're OK there.
Oil substitution is fine. Use what you have or what you like, but try to avoid oils with low smoke points (i.e. -extra virgin olive oil).
Also, be careful that you don't kill your yeast by letting it rise in too warm of a location.
Different brands of mozzarella have different melting characteristics.
If you search through the Chicago Style forum, you'll find people are using many different brands of cheese;
some melt well and some don't; some stretch well and some don't; some brands taste great and some are just awful.
Some people use more mozzarella, some use less. You might just need to add more cheese.

To answer an earlier question:
(How do you know when it's done baking?)
Well, it really depends on your oven, but if you're looking for visual cues:
 Yes, the sauce will tighten up a bit, but the appearance of that will depend on how much sauce you use.
 Deep dish crust will be be sturdier than a Neapolitan crust. It's a completely different texture. How sturdy depends on a few factors - how thick your dough is, whether you oiled the pan properly, how long or how hot you baked your pizza.
Charred crust or toppings do not necessarily mean your pizza is done.

Question: What exactly did you mean by "The recipe I used for the size pan I had wasn't even close for me." ?
The main recipe is for a 12" pizza, so if you used those topping measurements for a 9" pizza, that would make sense.
If you're talking about the 9" conversion on page 3, I've found that can sometimes be a little more dough than the larger sizes.
If the 9" conversion is too much dough for you, try splitting a 12" dough recipe to get 2 - "9" pizza doughs; I've done this and it works well for me. I may have to update my recipe to include a more accurate conversion.

Thanks for trying out the recipe and sharing your experiences. I hope we get to see more of your pizzas in the future!
 

[jeffereynelson]

VCB

Thanks for more feedback about the pizza. The pizza is delicious, so no worries there.

I made a mistake in saying I used KABF, that is what I often use so just found myself typing that, when in fact I did use KAAP. Thanks for the note on the shorter bake times for the smaller size, that makes me feel like I was pretty close then. I guess I need to just experiment with some others types of motz to see if one melts a little better for me, I think right now I do like the ratios I am using for overall taste. I will make another pizza right now (i hope I have enough sauce), and take more step by step photos of my process and then maybe you can critique me even more.

As far as the texture of the crust, I know it is nothing like other pizzas, and from my understanding it is supposed to be more biscuit like, which it was. I had some specific concerns that are hard to explain, so maybe I can get you a picture of that today after it's baked.

Also sorry for being unclear about the amount of dough, I made the 9 inch recipe and I came up quite a bit short for my pan. I think today I will make the standard 12 inch size for my 9 inch pan (better to have too much than not enough, and I think thats about the minimum for my KA to work).

So I'll take lots of pictures, I should be done and have a post up in 4 or 5 hours.

[jeffereynelson]

Here is the first set of pics,

1. The dough weight came out to 396g, just 2g short of the recipe.

[jeffereynelson]

Cont

[jeffereynelson]

The pizza baked for 24 minutes. It was very good. I did run out of sauce however and had to mix in some crappy sauce and that is why it is darker.

Also a separate question, what is the best deep dish pan? I think I might get a 14" so I can make it for more people.

[vcb]

The pizza baked for 24 minutes. It was very good. I did run out of sauce however and had to mix in some crappy sauce and that is why it is darker.

Also a separate question, what is the best deep dish pan? I think I might get a 14" so I can make it for more people.

Nice job! Photos look great!

PANS:
"Best" is kind of subjective. The pan in your photo looks like it's working just fine!
 I like AMCO aluminized steel cake pans. Mine are straight sided, silver colored and have a non-stick coating on them.
Many in here prefer the darker colored pans; Chicago Metallic is one of the brands that sells those.

As for size, 2" deep x 14" would be the typical large deep dish size; you can get about 8 regular slices out of that.
A 12" pan would be a medium and has 6 slices. I have several of those.
 I like the mediums a lot if you're making more than one pizza, but sometimes make one 14 and one 12 if I'm serving to a small group so I can serve different toppings.

[jeffereynelson]

thanks for the kind words, any specific feedback though? I know in the neapolitan thread there are always like 100 things to do to make it better. Is chicago style a lot more free range?

[vcb]

thanks for the kind words, any specific feedback though? I know in the neapolitan thread there are always like 100 things to do to make it better. Is chicago style a lot more free range?

Your first two attempts look like like they're right in the same ballpark as the rest of us.
They look like textbook examples of Chicago deep dish.
If you have any specific concerns about your pizza's taste or texture that you'd like to address,
please let us know what they are and we may be able to make some suggestions.
Your photos are very helpful, especially ones where we can see a cross section or side view of your pizza.

In the meantime, it would do you well to read through some of the more active threads in here , as you may find others having similar experiences to you, or may have suggestions or recommendations that may help you tweak your pizzas to your liking.

 

[David Deas]

Can we give the guy some honest feedback?  I'm all for patting folks on the back but that's not what he's looking for here.

Your pizza looks a little too thin.  Your pan is unsuitable.  You need something black and thick walled to get the right characteristics.  Your sauce should be more chunky.  Your crust looks dry (probably because it's a bit thin) and a perhaps crumbly but its hard to tell with just that one picture.  Are your photos distorted?  You've got a good start (better than my first), but you're right by noting that there is always room for improvement.  I'm a neo guy myself too.

I would check DKM's recipes or use Buzz's last recipes from the archives.  BTB does a good job also.  The current sticky thread on Malnati's deep dish with semolina is very good for recipe ideas as well.

[vcb]

Can we give the guy some honest feedback?  I'm all for patting folks on the back but that's not what he's looking for here.

Your pizza looks a little too thin.  Your pan is unsuitable.  You need something black and thick walled to get the right characteristics.  Your sauce should be more chunky.  Your crust looks dry (probably because it's a bit thin) and a perhaps crumbly but its hard to tell.  You've got a good start (better than my first), but you're right by noting that there is always room for improvement.  I'm a neo guy myself too.

I would check DKM's recipes or use Buzz's last recipes from the archives.  BTB does a good job also.  The current sticky thread on Malnati's deep dish with semolina is very good for recipe ideas as well.

--
on reflection and out of respect for this forum, I have omitted a previously posted mini-rant that previously occupied this space. sorry for those who missed it.
--

My recipe is pretty comprehensive, so I apologize if I tend to omit suggestions or recommendations that I've already included in the recipe.

and on that note :
Your pan is fine, clearly, because you made two really great looking pizzas in it.  
I don't agree with the people who say you absolutely need a black pan.
I've been using non-blackened pans for a while now and know that this is just not the case.  
I think your crust thickness looks just fine, but then my dough recipe tends to run on the thinner side of deep dish crusts, from what I hear. Your pizzas look plenty thick enough, especially the second one that looks like you had a good amount of cheese in there.

Thickness of your sauce all depends on how you like it, and I usually recommend crushed tomatoes or a mix of crushed and diced.
Malnati's tomato sauce tends to run on the watery side while Pizzeria Uno/Due tends to go a little lighter on the tomatoes.
Many in here like the 6-in-1 ground tomatoes, which are thick, but not very chunky, and I prefer Muir Glen crushed with basil, which is a bit chunkier. Some people use all diced tomatoes or crush whole tomatoes by hand.

Also, welcome to Chicago Forum on Pizzamaking.com  

[Garvey]

jeffereynelson:

Nice pizza.  Really.  If you and your wife both liked how it tasted, then you did it right.

Recipe: I wholeheartedly disagree that you *need* to change recipes.  The recipe from vcb is fantastic and very detailed.  Of course, feel free to do whatever recipes you like, but vcb's method will produce a top-notch pie.  And silver pans work just fine.

Crust: If you want a thicker crust, then use more dough. Sounds like you got that solved already by making the dough ball for a 12" pie and putting it into your 9" pan.

Cheese: Your cheese looks like it is sliced way too thick.  Get much thinner and overlap when needed.  That's probably why it didn't melt well.  Can't speak to Albertsons cheese, but you may want to try something a little more "top shelf" if you don't like your results.

Sauce: So your wife doesn't like any tomato bits.  No problem.  Get crushed tomatoes and strain them with a wire mesh strainer to remove as much liquid as possible (i.e., let sit for a while, per vcb's recipe).  IMO, some brands of crushed are pretty darn smooth already, but you could then put them into a food processor or the like to get them even smoother.  Now you'll have a thicker sauce, with the extra water removed.  You may want to go a little lighter on the sauce, too, if you thought it was unbalanced with the rest of the pie.  You could put dollops around the pie, allowing some of your toppings to peek out a little.  Think of it going on as a topping (admittedly, a fairly heavy topping), not as a solid layer like frosting.

[mrmojo1]

awesome rocker knife, I wish I had one of those!

I have one like that.  40bucks at the local restaurant supply and food service called cash n carry.  I also think u can find one on amazon if you're serious!  I saw a really nice one in a doc on a new York pizza joint.  wood handle. nice!  no one seems to make wood handled really nice ones unfortunately! been searching for a while!

[jeffereynelson]

Hey thanks everyone for the replies, I am still experimenting and everything helps, I like making this style because it is so quick and easy.

I wanted to try the semolina recipe, but when I went to the grocery today I found out my albertsons doesn't carry it, and I didn't want to go to the the other grocer in town.

[Mick.Chicago]

Looks good, personally I'd go with less 'sauce'.

Is there a certain pizzeria your wife likes? 

[jeffereynelson]

Looks good, personally I'd go with less 'sauce'.

Is there a certain pizzeria your wife likes? 

I made pizza again with crushed tomatoes and strained them first. I think I strained them too much for my preference and came out too dry. I however do think to start I was putting on too much sauce, and now I need to find the happy medium.

I don't think my wife has a certain one she likes, she just always has liked pictures or the pizzas on tv from food specials about chicago style and wanted me to try and make it. She liked it a lot, but says I can't make it anymore or she will get too fat from eating it all the time.