Pretty happy now - Looking for advice on longer cold-rise and proofing container

[brandonb]

I got into pizza a month ago and have made pizza 7 times since. Yesterday's was awesome.

I used the below recipe: mixed most flour and water, rested 20min, added yeast, salt and remaining water, mixed until smooth (~4min), rested 20min, slap and fold, rested 10min, slap and fold, warm rise for 2 hours, balled and cold rise for 18 hours, proofed for 2 hours. Cooked on stone in cleaning mode oven directly under broiler. Initially got stone to 980' but found that was too hot so next pizza did at around 800' and it was perfect.


Flour (100%):    803.64 g  |  28.35 oz | 1.77 lbs
Water (62%):    498.25 g  |  17.58 oz | 1.1 lbs
ADY (0.5%):    4.02 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.06 tsp | 0.35 tbsp
Salt (2.5%):    20.09 g | 0.71 oz | 0.04 lbs | 3.6 tsp | 1.2 tbsp
Total (165%):   1326 g | 46.77 oz | 2.92 lbs | TF = N/A
Single Ball:   265.2 g | 9.35 oz | 0.58 lbs

Only took 2 pictures since we had guests. The pizza pictured has a san marzano base, caramelized onions, mozzarella, ricotta, goat cheese, and fresh basil. Really happy with texture and crumb.

So two things I'd like to work on: increasing dough flavor via longer cold rise and getting a better "release" out of my tupperware containers

Longer cold rise
- If I want to do a 3-6 day cold rise, how much should I reduce the yeast and or adjust the pre-cold rise times/process? Right now, the dough doubles in size by the end of the cold rise so I think I need to make some adjustments for a longer cold rise to get more flavor but avoid over-proofing.

Release from containers
- When taking the dough out from the containers after proofing to form the pizza, I have to kind of pull them out and they lose some shape and interfere with forming the perfect pizza. I'm using small tupperware containers. When I put the 260g ball in before the cold rise, it's about half an inch from the sides and is about 40% of the height of the container. When taking it out after proofing, it's expanded to cover the sides. I spray a little PAM in the container before and wipe it around with a paper towel to help release. They don't stick horribly, but I think it could release better and which would help in forming the pizza. Any advice?

Thanks!

[dmcavanagh]

I make a dough very similar to your's, so I think I can give you some good suggestions. I mix my ingredients with cold water. I use IDY yeast, very similar amount as you are using, mixed into the flour. My water is "from the refridgerator" cold, as I pour from a filtering pitcher. I mix the dough to just a "rough" stage, then let it rest at room temp for 20 minutes to give it time to fully hydrate. then , I finish the dough with just a couple of minutes of kneading with a couple of stretch and folds included. I then ball and place into slighly sprayed (spray olive oil) plastic containers which I immediately put into the refridgerator. Your 2 hour warm rise is activating the yeast too much, that's why you are getting so much rise. My dough balls will barely rise at all in the containers, all the rise will happen when you take them out to warm up before making your pizzas. Actually, you want most of your rise to happen in the oven, and believe me, it will. Give my method a try and report back. After one try, you can make tweaks to suit yourself. As for the dough release, I simply turn the container upside down on my work surface, and walk away. The dough will release by itself in a minute or so, just give gravity a chance to do it's thing.

[brandonb]

Thanks for the great advice!

How long do you do your cold-rise for?

[dmcavanagh]

I had posted that in a separate post, but for some reason it didn't show up. I like to cold ferment for 2-3 days, 3 days being about the "sweet spot" as far as I'm concerned. This seems to give the most flavor without corcerns of the dough starting to detereorate. You can go longer, but you may not like the flavor, as it starts to get to the "sourdoughy" like taste. I like sourdoughs, so that doesn't bother me, but it's not everyones taste. Experiment until you kind your sweet spot.

[dmcavanagh]

I should also add that I use IDY=instant dry yeast as opposed to your ADY. To tell the truth, I don't find much difference. Some people around here will tell you that you have to hydrate ADY first, and that you have to do it with warm water, but I have never found this to be true. You are making a lot of dough with that recipe above, so you may even want to consider using a bit more yeast if you stay with ADY. Perhaps when your present supply of ADY is used up you may consider a switch to IDY.

[dmcavanagh]

Another thing I should add, I make mostly NY style in a standard electric oven, so I can't get anywhere near the temps you're cooking at . Also , it looks like you're going for a more neapolitan style. In that case, long cold ferments may not be your best option. Have you tried long, cool ferments, like maybe placing your dough ball container in the coolest room in the house, or placing it into a cooler with an ice pack/blue ice type thing. This would slow fermentation, but not completely shut it down. This will still allow the dough to develop flavor and still have the desired oven spring for a Neapolitan style. Traditionally, Neapolitan's are made with same dough, room fermented doughs. Some people dislike the mild flavor associated with these types of doughs. It's a balancing act, ultimately you have to decide what you like best.

[brandonb]

Yes, I am going for a classic neapolitan pizza. Does your above advice not pertain to neapolitan? Should I stick to a 1-day routine with my short warm rise before balling and putting in the fridge?

And for my ADY, I do activate it in warm water for 10 minutes before adding to the dough. I'll probably go to IDY once I run out of this.

[dmcavanagh]

brandonb

A "classic" neapolitan would be made with a same day dough. You can regulate the fermentation of the dough through the two factors which regulate fermentation, those being time and temperature. Starting any yeast in warm water immediately starts the fermentation process. In many cases, fermentation happens too fast. The dough rises before the yeasts can create flavor components in the dough. You want more flavor, so you have to reach a compromise. I think you could make a dough with cool water, give it a little time at room temp to begin the fermentation process, and then store in the refridgerator overnight for next day use. Let the dough come to room temperature before cooking. Depending on your environment, that will usually take 1-3 hours, depending on the ambient temperature in your house. This should give you a solid starting point, from which you can make adjustments accordingly. Sorry to have gotten so long winded, just a lot to be said. Maybe some Neapolitan fans will chime in and offer their advice. Anything can be done, sometimes you just have to figure out how to jump the hurdles in the process.

[dellavecchia]

For the fun of it, you might want to try an all room temp poolish, which ferments a portion of the flour before mixing the final dough. Do a search and you will find some percentages to work with.

But a classic NP is all room temp and same day. To get more flavor, you can use very small amounts of yeast, say .04% ADY, and go 18 - 24 hours for the fermentation. But you can still get good flavor with 8 hour doughs. Do a search for Chau's workflows as he is a master with commercial yeast and same day doughs.

John

[thezaman]

 i will second johns sugestion. chau is very good at same day doughs. i also want to say that your pizza looks like it was from a wood oven. your home oven results are beautiful!!

[David Deas]

Yes, I am going for a classic neapolitan pizza. Does your above advice not pertain to neapolitan? Should I stick to a 1-day routine with my short warm rise before balling and putting in the fridge?

And for my ADY, I do activate it in warm water for 10 minutes before adding to the dough. I'll probably go to IDY once I run out of this.

As has been mentioned, a classic neapolitan uses a warm rise.  

Personally, I use a rather short and aggressive bulk rise with one reball.  The whole process can be done in about 8 hours give or take.  The faster rise works better because the acid doesn't have time to attack the gluten as much.  Extended rise times at room temperature using a sourdough starter can really reek havoc on your bread texture if you are not careful.

When you say you use a "cold rise" can you be more specific?  What is your temp?  For instance, I can place some of my warm risen dough in the fridge at 37~38 degrees and halt yeast activity pretty much completely.  The dough itself will still mature and change in taste over the course of the week, but it will not "rise" a single millimeter.

What is your flour?  62% hydration is too high for 00 flour.  You should be somewhere between 55% and 60%

[dellavecchia]

Personally, I use a rather short and aggressive bulk rise with one reball.  The whole process can be done in about 8 hours give or take.  The faster rise works better because the acid doesn't have time to attack the gluten as much.  Extended rise times at room temperature using a sourdough starter can really reek havoc on your bread texture if you are not careful.

What is your flour?  62% hydration is too high for 00 flour.  You should be somewhere between 55% and 60%

David - It would be interesting to hear about your 8 hour workflow in detail if you don't mind sharing.

Also, "00" refers to fineness of grind and ash content, but the protein level can vary from 8% - 13% (or even more) according to the manufacturer. So it may be perfectly appropriate to have a 62% hydration with 00 flour, it just depends on which flour you may be using. The most common one used here, Caputo Pizzeria, is around 12%.

John

[brandonb]

Thanks for the comments everyone.

So to answer some of the questions. I'm using Caputo 00 pizza flour. My warm rise is usually around 70'-75' and my cold rise in the fridge is probably in the 38'-40' range.

I may do a little side by side comparison for pizza this Saturday. I'll do a few balls on Friday night with my normal routine of an overnight dough with a cold rise (except without the initial warm rise) and then I'll do a same day dough using one of Chau's methods and compare. If anyone has any links or good examples of this off the top of their head, please pass along.

Thanks!

[David Deas]

David - It would be interesting to hear about your 8 hour workflow in detail if you don't mind sharing.

Also, "00" refers to fineness of grind and ash content, but the protein level can vary from 8% - 13% (or even more) according to the manufacturer. So it may be perfectly appropriate to have a 62% hydration with 00 flour, it just depends on which flour you may be using. The most common one used here, Caputo Pizzeria, is around 12%.

John

Sure.  What sort of details, specifically?  I mix by hand.  I use two 30 minute rest intervals.  I use enough sourdough starter to rise the dough in about 8 hours bulk, give or take.  The dough rises about 1.5 times before it is cut, tightly reballed and allowed to rise another 1.5 to 2 times before skinning.

My hydration floats between 55% and 60% normally.  I buy my 00 flour right off the store shelf of a local Italian market, and it isn't always the exact same every time.  That's why my hydration varies so much.  Although you say 00 flour can be hydrated beyond 60% depending on protein content (which is technically true), I've yet to encounter any.  And the Caputo 00 pizza flour that I assume everyone here uses certainly doesn't take much beyond about 55% hydration itself.

[Bill/SFNM]

And the Caputo 00 pizza flour that I assume everyone here uses certainly doesn't take much beyond about 55% hydration itself.

I routinely go with a hydration level in excess of 70% with Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour to make an very workable dough with minimal bench flour. Depends on the method used from start-to-finish and the results desired. It's all in the technique.

[bakeshack]

And the Caputo 00 pizza flour that I assume everyone here uses certainly doesn't take much beyond about 55% hydration itself.

David, it sounds like you have been doing this for a while.  I would love to see your pizzas to share in the forum.  I am sure we can get something from your work that can help us in our pizzamaking skills. 

In my experience, 55% for a Caputo 00 Pizzeria is on the low side (maybe too low).  I would only go down to 58% max, personally.  My preferred hydration, though, is 60-62%. 

Marlon

[David Deas]

I routinely go with a hydration level in excess of 70% with Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour to make an very workable dough with minimal bench flour. Depends on the method used from start-to-finish and the results desired. It's all in the technique.

I agree with all that.  Technique is very important.  So is personal preference.  Bragging rights don't hurt either since a lot of people struggle mightily with high hydration doughs.

I have, however, noticed some degradation in performance beyond about 60%.  After a certain point the dough doesn't become softer, just slacker.  Dough balls barely hold their spherical shape as they flatten out everywhere like pancakes in the tray.  Your bake time increases (which I always consider bad) because you have more water to heat.  The crust tends to have a tougher crumb, especially when it cools down.

I know some guys, like Peter R., constantly tell us that the higher the hydration the better the pizza (and for a trial period I pushed my hydration levels through the roof in pursuit of of that wisdom).  But through experience I've learned that I absolutely disagree, and that there is an optimum point.

So why do you prefer such a high amount of water, personally?  What character is imparted that you enjoy?

[David Deas]

David, it sounds like you have been doing this for a while.  I would love to see your pizzas to share in the forum.  I am sure we can get something from your work that can help us in our pizzamaking skills.  

In my experience, 55% for a Caputo 00 Pizzeria is on the low side (maybe too low).  I would only go down to 58% max, personally.  My preferred hydration, though, is 60-62%.  

Marlon

When I buy my flour off the shelf it isn't always the exact same every time.  I'm getting some variability.  Sometimes it's very course and a little hard and sometimes it's beautiful and fluffy with a sifted texture.  I put whatever amount of water in is required to deliver the right consistency between my fingers.  This is usually, more specifically, around 58% on the dot.  55% is on the low end, but sometimes that's all I need!  So when you say 55% is maybe too low, well it depends on what type of day it is that day and what condition the bag of flour I have is in.

Never got much into food photography, but the next time I make a pizza (which should be this week) I will remember to take photos as you have requested.

[Bill/SFNM]

So why do you prefer such a high amount of water, personally?  What character is imparted that you enjoy?

These days I alternate between 2 different methods: 1) ~70%+ using the Tartine manual fold/stretch method and 2) 62% using a fork mixer. After proofing, I'd be willing to bet that nobody here could tell the difference between the two balls. The 70% is not slacker nor stickier. Both produce crusts with the soft and tender texture that I prefer. Hard to describe, but the character I enjoy is a minuscule layer of crispiness that yields without resistance to the tooth. Just when I think one method is better than the other, I make a pizza that changes my mind. The hydration numbers are approximate - I keep a water spritzer handy throughout folding/mixing.  

What I think is going on is something I have been working hard at for a long time. Judging when the pizza is perfectly baked is critical, especially in a blazing WFO where a couple of seconds can mean the difference between underbaked and overbaked. The 70% crust has a larger window in this respect so I believe I hit it more often.

[dellavecchia]

Sure.  What sort of details, specifically?  I mix by hand.  I use two 30 minute rest intervals.  I use enough sourdough starter to rise the dough in about 8 hours bulk, give or take.  The dough rises about 1.5 times before it is cut, tightly reballed and allowed to rise another 1.5 to 2 times before skinning.

My hydration floats between 55% and 60% normally.  I buy my 00 flour right off the store shelf of a local Italian market, and it isn't always the exact same every time.  That's why my hydration varies so much.  Although you say 00 flour can be hydrated beyond 60% depending on protein content (which is technically true), I've yet to encounter any.  And the Caputo 00 pizza flour that I assume everyone here uses certainly doesn't take much beyond about 55% hydration itself.

Thanks for your workflow David. I regularly use Caputo at between 60-67% hydration, as do most of here on the NP board. I don't know the protein count of your flour, but you could use a mixer to develop the gluten more so you could get your hydration up in an 8 hour workflow. The slack quality you are experiencing at higher hydrations may be that your flour is more of a pasta 00 with low protein - combined with a short mix by hand (and not developing the dough enough). Otherwise, try using less starter and extending your fermentation out to 18-24 hours, and doing 4-6 stretch and folds bulked after your initial mix. Try it at 60% and you may be surprised at the result. I am also assuming you are cooking at NP temps - 800 and up.

John