Can you revive a starter from a raw dough?

[BBB211]

If a batch of pizza dough contained about 15 to 20% of great starter and you had access to this dough, can you some how revive the same starter in it, by feeding program? And if you did achieve this how close would it be to the original starter? I would love to find this out. Thanks!!!

[Bill/SFNM]

I have recently tried this because I was likewise curious. First of all, it is critical that there be no commercial yeast in the dough. Otherwise, the commercial yeast might dominate. Second, the dough should be reasonably fresh to ensure there are enough healthy yeast and bacteria to be revived. Third, there are likely other ingredients in the dough that may not be desirable such as oils, sugars, etc. But the reviving process will likely dilute these to the point that they are no longer a factor.

What I did was mix in enough water so that I had a batter-like consistency. Then I added equal parts by weight of water and flour at regular intervals until you have a bubbling, happy culture. I did this about every 4 hours for a day, throwing out some of the excess each time. The dough I was using was very fresh. It was easy.

[Jackie Tran]

Should be doable. 

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=12025.0

Having a good starter is the least of your worries when it comes to making good pizza though. 

[Mmmph]

Having a good starter is the least of your worries when it comes to making good pizza though. 

  I was just thinking the same thing.

[TXCraig1]

Having a good starter is the least of your worries when it comes to making good pizza though. 

Agreed, but it is not quite that simple. I see it kind of like golf. The clubs are the least of my worries - you could give a pro the cheapest piece of junk sticks made and me the best money can buy, and he'd beat me like I owed him money every day of the week and twice on Sunday. However, at the margin where he plays competitively, the clubs matter. IMO, once you have the basics down, the yeast/culture you use can have a BIG impact on your pizza. Maybe more than any other single factor - depending on your preferred style, maybe more than heat.

If you have a chance to acquire a great culture, do it. It hardly costs anything to keep it going. It's basically a free option. I love free options.

CL

[Jackie Tran]

You're right Craig.  BBB211 should propagate it and hang onto it just in case it's a good one.  He can always use it later.  There's no harm in that.  I started out making pizza with a starter, thanks to Jeff Varasano.  While I don't think using a starter has to necessarily be that difficult, it does add a level or several layers of complexity to the process that beginners don't really need.  Bbb211, I don't know what your experience is so I'll let you decide if you want to tackle using starters in yor dough.

Bbb211, you can always try it and if you don't like it or not ready, you can always fall back onto commercial yeast.  Natural yeast will survive a very long time wet or dry. 

[BBB211]

What would be a good amount of natural yeast starter(ie.sourdough starter) to a batch of dough?
or what would be a "usual" percentage on a batch of pizza dough? I'm sure this is got to be on this site but I cant seem to find it...

Thank you.

[TXCraig1]

What would be a good amount of natural yeast starter(ie.sourdough starter) to a batch of dough?
or what would be a "usual" percentage on a batch of pizza dough? I'm sure this is got to be on this site but I cant seem to find it...

Thank you.

That really depends on a lot of things - how long you want to ferment, temperature, dough hydration, salinity, your particular starter, others I'm not thinking of - each of these could have a huge impact. This is why starters are difficult. You really have to experiment with your particular starter in your unique situation to figure out how to make it work for you.

For me, with my Ischia starter, I use 1.3 - 1.5% (of the flour weight), 60-62% hydration, and 2.8-2.9% salt. My typical fermentation routine is 36 hours at 60F in bulk followed by another 10-12 in balls at 80F (with temp adjustments as needed).

Sounds difficult, and it can be, but it is more than worth it for the flavor.

CL

[BBB211]

Well... this was my first 3 batches of pizza dough with 25% starter( didn't know what i was doing) but came out surprisingly good. Not to mention good rise. However it was so tangy and a bit sour it gave me a heart burn LOL!!! This was my recipe; Total Formula:
Flour (100%):    736.53 g  |  25.98 oz | 1.62 lbs
Water (70%):    515.57 g  |  18.19 oz | 1.14 lbs
Salt (1.75%):    12.89 g | 0.45 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.31 tsp | 0.77 tbsp
Oil (1%):    7.37 g | 0.26 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.64 tsp | 0.55 tbsp
Total (172.75%):   1272.35 g | 44.88 oz | 2.81 lbs | TF = N/A
Single Ball:   318.09 g | 11.22 oz | 0.7 lbs

Preferment:
Flour:    110.48 g | 3.9 oz | 0.24 lbs
Water:    73.65 g | 2.6 oz | 0.16 lbs
Total:    184.13 g | 6.49 oz | 0.41 lbs

Final Dough:
Flour:    626.05 g | 22.08 oz | 1.38 lbs
Water:    441.92 g | 15.59 oz | 0.97 lbs
Salt:    12.89 g | 0.45 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.31 tsp | 0.77 tbsp
Preferment:    184.13 g | 6.49 oz | 0.41 lbs
Oil:    7.37 g | 0.26 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.64 tsp | 0.55 tbsp
Total:    1272.35 g | 44.88 oz | 2.81 lbs  | TF = N/A

then i cold ferment in the fridge for 4days. Baked at 550 + broiler.
I understand the percentage of the starter depends on a lot of other factors but i just wanted to know where i should start. Thanks to Greg i know its 1.3% to 1.5%. If anyone else can comment on the amount i would greatly appreciated. Thanks

[Jackie Tran]

Depending on temp of fermentation, 10% of the flour weight at a room temp of 75f will be ready in 10-12h depending on other factors as Craig mentioned.  If your temp is lower it can take longer and of your temp is higher, the dough will be ready sooner.   20% of the flour weight in starter can be ready in 6-8hrs at room temps.  If you decide to cold ferment, you can get that 10-20% starter to go much longer, but the end product might be fairly sour.   So how much you use is entirely up to you depending on your fermentation temp and other variables, and what you want in the end flavor.  1-2% might get you 20-24hrs at room temp of 75f or much longer as Craig is getting at lower temps.

High protein content of flour increases fermentation time, while lower decreases it.
Increase temps decrease fermentation time while decrease temps lengthen it.
High hydration doughs ferment faster while lower hydrated doughs ferment slower.
Highly salted doughs ferment slower and vice versa.

Temperature also effects the flavor of the end product so you'll have to experiment to see what you like.

chau

[BBB211]

Thank you Chau!

Truly you are a gentleman and  a scholar! 

[TXCraig1]

A couple thoughts:

- I don't reccomend refrigerated fermentation for naturally leavened doughs
- 25% is not a bad number. It is what I used in my UPN formulation: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10237.0.html
- 1.5% is not a magic number. Don't even think about putting it in the fridge to ferment with a % that low.
- With a starter with strong lactic acid bacteria activity (sounds like yours might be), adding more than 25% starter could add enough enzymes and acid to dissolve the gluten in your dough.
- too much fermentation can/will dissolve the gluten in your dough and it will get tough, gummy, dense.

CL

[Jackie Tran]

You are welcome.  Play around with it and then if you get comfortable or not, test your pizza recipe against the same using commercial yeast.  See of you can spot the differences.  I still go back and forth between using a starter and good ol' IDY.  I even mix them to experiment with.  If you are starting out learning to make pizza, I always recommend getting a good recipe and technique down with IDY/ADY first.  That way you always have something to fall back on when you need some encouragement.  

Chau

[Jackie Tran]

Craig I need to test out a cold fermented NP dough with starter soon.  I have had good results with NY style and hybrid style pies and tartiine bread as well.  I've used anywhere from 10-20% with cool overnight  fermentation (50-55f) with good results.  Just haven't tried with NP dough yet, but will soon.

[TXCraig1]

Cool is one thing. Sub-40 is another.

CL