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Offline Rene

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Just a begginer any tips for me
« on: August 27, 2005, 07:56:06 AM »
hello all!!  Nice to meet everyone and looking forward to learning from you all...

I was surfing arround the web and found this forum. It's great to see I'm not the only one who wants to improve their pizza/bread  making craft.

I'm just learning to bake breads, pizza's etc. I recently picked up a book called "The Bread Bible", and have to admit the whole dough percentage thing is a bit intimidating,  As I've only been making my pizza's thus far from from unbleeched flours , I didn't realise making dough's was so technical.

So far I've just been guessing at my ingrediants , little unbleeched flour, salt , sugar, dissolved yeast.  I also bake my pizza's on my bbq, as I recently purchased a new bbq, and the temp of it goes up to a little over 600 degrees,  I've learned so far that Mozzerella and provolone go amazinly well together for pizza, and i also sometimes use Monteray jack  to add to the mix..

have a few questions maybe some of the more experienced bakers can  help me with ,

1) I just bought some "glutten" flour , what exactly is this used for? do you use this the same as Durum?

2) I can not get the King Aurthor flour here in my part of Ontario/Canada, any suggestions as to what is a good replacment?  I buy my flours at a bulk barn, and they don't specifiy what brand they are

3) anyone had any luck with a cheese crust, everytime i try it the cheese just sort of dissapears into the crust


any tips would be greatly appreciated thankyou all in advance :-)


piroshok

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Re: Just a begginer any tips for me
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2005, 08:58:44 AM »
Hello Rene and Welcome to the pizzaforum
I am new to this place also but let me tell you that gluten flour is not used here at all
gluten flour is used as substitute for met in vegetarian dishes and so on also some gluten sometimes is added (unsuccessfully) to streghten weaker types of flour
Anyway perhaps you have been blessed incanada you can get your hands on Manitoba bread flour it is the best in your country and many Italian pizzamakers supplement their pizza flours with Manitoba.


Offline foster444

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Re: Just a begginer any tips for me
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2005, 09:13:15 AM »
Come to New York, stand and watch the pizza makers in any pizzeria for a while.  Then go home and keep making pies.  After a couple of messes, you'll be a pizza maker too.

Use high gluten flour or don't even bother.  You can get King Arthur Sir Lancelot flour on-line including on Amazon.com.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Just a begginer any tips for me
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2005, 09:59:30 AM »
Rene,

As a beginning pizza maker I wouldn't be overly concerned at this juncture about the technical aspects of pizza making. Rather, you should try to find good dough recipes and learn how to master them. If you are so inclined technically, you can later learn how best to use dough percentages (baker's percents) to change recipes (usually to scale them up or down or to change pizza sizes, etc.). That said, however, I believe that you should pay rather close attention to the ratio of water to flour (the baker's percent that represents the degree of absorption of the water by the flour). Often, the amounts of flour and water are specified by weights rather than volumes. If you plan to use weights (as opposed to volume measurements), I would recommend that you buy a good digital scale to weigh such ingredients. It will spare you a lot of sub-par or failed doughs during the learning process. You will also get a better feel for what a good dough looks and feels like.

Gluten flour, also known as vital wheat gluten, is a dried wheat protein of high-protein, hard wheat flour that has had all of the starch removed and is then dried. Although there are slight variations from brand to brand, vital wheat gluten has a gluten content of around 45% and a protein content of about 75%. As fellow member piroshok has indicated, it is often used to strengthen a weaker flour. It is also used to give greater height and volume to breads that incorporate a lot of heavy ingredients, like dried fruits, olives, and nuts, and to supplement flours that themselves have little or no gluten content, like rye, soy flour, etc. The recommended amount to use is typically at the rate of 1 to 2 teaspoon for each cup of flour used (or 2-3% by weight of flour, in terms of baker’s percent). Adding vital wheat gluten to a weaker flour to increase its protein and gluten content will not yield a product that is identical to a stronger flour. But I believe it improves the weaker flour and yields a better product than without it. I have used vital wheat gluten on many occasions, such as when I did not have access to bread flour or high-gluten flour but I had access to all-purpose flour. I simply added vital wheat gluten flour to the all-purpose flour. In fact, I recently reported (very favorably) on such an experience with a NY style dough based on all-purpose flour supplemented with vital wheat gluten (and also dried dairy whey). See, for example, Replies # 203 and 204 at the Lehmann thread, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.200.html

Given a choice, you should try to get high-gluten flour for those dough recipes that call for it. However, I know that Canadian members of this forum have had a difficult time in the past getting high-gluten flour in Canada at the retail level. I don't know if King Arthur or other sources of the Sir Lancelot (or other brands) of high-gluten flour ship into Canada, or at what cost, but, if not, you should look for Manitoba flour, as suggested by piroshok. I don't know the exact protein content of Manitoba flour, or even where or how you can find a source of it in Canada, but high-gluten flour usually runs from about 13.5-14.2 percent. That might be the benchmark you want to use.

Good luck.

Peter
« Last Edit: August 27, 2005, 10:06:11 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline Rene

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Re: Just a begginer any tips for me
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2005, 12:49:44 PM »
Hello Rene and Welcome to the pizzaforum
I am new to this place also but let me tell you that gluten flour is not used here at all
gluten flour is used as substitute for met in vegetarian dishes and so on also some gluten sometimes is added (unsuccessfully) to streghten weaker types of flour
Anyway perhaps you have been blessed incanada you can get your hands on Manitoba bread flour it is the best in your country and many Italian pizzamakers supplement their pizza flours with Manitoba.

Thanks a heap for your info on the glutten flour, I had no idea what  glutten flour was used for , Howevewr now I know.  The other day while shoping at the bulk barn for different flours I spotted it and decided to buy some in case it came in handy for something.... ( was buying up everything hehehehe)

So is the Manitoba flour called "Manitoba flour"?  I'm going to ask the people at the bulk barn where I purchase all my baking ingrediants if they are carrying it in their bins,  I only recently started shopping there for my unbleeched flour and made Pizza this week for the family, and everyone was thorougly impressed , my oldest daughter said she prefered my dough over pizza hut , and that says alot because she is a dedicated pizza hut lover.... My problem is I have to start writing down the exact measures of everything though because I've come to realise I have too many misses and than "hits".   I am getting better though when I first started making pizza's my pizza doughs were like bread, and thick crusts, now I can make a nice thin crust and not burn it :-)))


Offline Rene

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Re: Just a begginer any tips for me
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2005, 12:51:24 PM »
Come to New York, stand and watch the pizza makers in any pizzeria for a while.† Then go home and keep making pies.† After a couple of messes, you'll be a pizza maker too.

Use high gluten flour or don't even bother.† You can get King Arthur Sir Lancelot flour on-line including on Amazon.com.

Thnx for the tip!!  I was watching a pizza cook off the other day on the Food network it was awsome , people from all over the globe were showing off their best pies.... I had no idea there were soooo many ways to make pizza!!

Offline Rene

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Re: Just a begginer any tips for me
« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2005, 01:00:41 PM »
Rene,

As a beginning pizza maker I wouldn't be overly concerned at this juncture about the technical aspects of pizza making. If you are so inclined technically, you can later learn how best to use dough percentages (baker's percents) to change recipes (usually to scale them up or down or to change pizza sizes, etc.). That said, however, I believe that you should pay rather close attention to the ratio of water to flour (the baker's percent that represents the degree of absorption of the water by the flour). Often, the amounts of flour and water are specified by weights rather than volumes. If you plan to use weights (as opposed to volume measurements), I would recommend that you buy a good digital scale to weigh such ingredients. It will spare you a lot of sub-par or failed doughs during the learning process. You will also get a better feel for what a good dough looks and feels like.

Gluten flour, also known as vital wheat gluten, is a dried wheat protein of high-protein, hard wheat flour that has had all of the starch removed and is then dried. Although there are slight variations from brand to brand, vital wheat gluten has a gluten content of around 45% and a protein content of about 75%. As fellow member piroshok has indicated, It is also used to give greater height and volume to breads that incorporate a lot of heavy ingredients, like dried fruits, olives, and nuts, and to supplement flours that themselves have little or no gluten content, like rye, soy flour, etc. The recommended amount to use is typically at the rate of 1 to 2 teaspoon for each cup of flour used (or 2-3% by weight of flour, in terms of bakerís percent). Adding vital wheat gluten to a weaker flour to increase its protein and gluten content will not yield a product that is identical to a stronger flour. But I believe it improves the weaker flour and yields a better product than without it. I have used vital wheat gluten on many occasions, such as when I did not have access to bread flour or high-gluten flour but I had access to all-purpose flour. I simply added vital wheat gluten flour to the all-purpose flour. In fact, I recently reported (very favorably) on such an experience with a NY style dough based on all-purpose flour supplemented with vital wheat gluten (and also dried dairy whey). See, for example, Replies # 203 and 204 at the Lehmann thread, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.200.html

Given a choice, you should try to get high-gluten flour for those dough recipes that call for it. However, . I don't know if King Arthur or other sources of the Sir Lancelot (or other brands) of high-gluten flour ship into Canada, or at what cost, but, if not, you should look for Manitoba flour, as suggested by piroshok. I don't know the exact protein content of Manitoba flour, or even where or how you can find a source of it in Canada, but high-gluten flour usually runs from about 13.5-14.2 percent. That might be the benchmark you want to use.

Good luck.




>>>Rather, you should try to find good dough recipes and learn how to master them. <<<<

Hi again! and yes totally agree, I have been practising using the pizza dough recipies from the "The Bread Bible", don't think i have it mastered yet, but I'm obstinate so I'm sure I will improve!


>>> it is often used to strengthen a weaker flour.<<<

Like adding it to all purpose flour? (not the unbleeched kind), I use to make pizza doughs with all purpose flour but my pizza crusts were too bready? thick crusts and I prefer unbleeched for pizza's so far anyways...

>>I know that Canadian members of this forum have had a difficult time in the past getting high-gluten flour in Canada at the retail level<<<<

interesting where I am shopping in our city they supply lots of glutten flour , it is sold in bulk though, but still I don't think I paid much for it at all.


Thnx for your response I'm writing down some of what you tell me in my dough book for reference

what a great forum!!  I love it :-)

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Just a begginer any tips for me
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2005, 01:36:49 PM »
Rene,

I don't know what recipe you are using for your pizza dough, but if it is for a bread dough used for making pizzas, the results can easily differ from what you will get following a recipe specifically for pizza dough. One of the biggest differences is that when following a bread dough recipe to make pizza, the crust and crumb will quite often be rather bready, with small, tight, regular-sized holes. A good pizza crust will usually have large, irregular-shaped and sized holes and will have an airy and light character. If you know what style pizza you want to make, you might want to take a look at the recipes for that style that are presented on this forum and give them a try. If you are looking for a decent book on pizza making that covers the basics and then some, you might consider Peter Reinhart's book American Pie.

All-purpose flour is generally considered a medium strength flour. High-gluten flour is considered a high strength flour. I would put bread flour in between these two flours. Examples of weak flours include some Italian 00 flours (however, there are also some medium strength Italian 00 flours, like the Caputo 00 flour). When I have added vital wheat gluten to flours, it has been to all-purpose and bread flours. It doesn't matter whether the flour is bleached or unbleached since the purpose of adding vital wheat gluten is to increase the protein and gluten content of the underlying flour.

You want to be careful that you don't confuse gluten flour (vital wheat gluten) with high-gluten flour. They are two different products. The names used in Canada may be a bit different than used in the U.S., so you will want to be sure that you know the difference when you go to the place where you shop. Vital wheat gluten has a fine, almost powderlike, texture and has a tan color--considerably darker than ordinary white flour. I hope by your comments that you really meant high-gluten flour. That would be a big plus for your pizza making, especially for the dough recipes that call for high-gluten flour.

Peter


Offline Rene

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Re: Just a begginer any tips for me
« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2005, 04:00:20 PM »
Rene,

I don't know what recipe you are using for your pizza dough, but if it is for a bread dough used for making pizzas, the results can easily differ from what you will get following a recipe specifically for pizza dough. One of the biggest differences is that when following a bread dough recipe to make pizza, the crust and crumb will quite often be rather bready, with small, tight, regular-sized holes. . If you know what style pizza you want to make, you might want to take a look at the recipes for that style that are presented on this forum and give them a try. If you are looking for a decent book on pizza making that covers the basics and then some, you might consider Peter Reinhart's book American Pie.

All-purpose flour is generally considered a medium strength flour. High-gluten flour is considered a high strength flour. I would put bread flour in between these two flours. Examples of weak flours include some Italian 00 flours (however, there are also some medium strength Italian 00 flours, like the Caputo 00 flour). When I have added vital wheat gluten to flours, it has been to all-purpose and bread flours. It doesn't matter whether the flour is bleached or unbleached since the purpose of adding vital wheat gluten is to increase the protein and gluten content of the underlying flour.

You want to be careful that you don't confuse gluten flour (vital wheat gluten) with high-gluten flour. They are two different products. The names used in Canada may be a bit different than used in the U.S., so you will want to be sure that you know the difference when you go to the place where you shop. Vital wheat gluten has a fine, almost powderlike, texture and has a tan color--considerably darker than ordinary white flour. I hope by your comments that you really meant high-gluten flour. That would be a big plus for your pizza making, especially for the dough recipes that call for high-gluten flour.

Peter

Hi Peter, The bin where I got the glutten flour just says "Glutten", and it is alot darker in color than unbleached, I don't know if it is high glutten, but i will ask the next time I go back to the bulk barn, the texture is as you describe, very powdery,  not the texture of semolina and a little more goldy in color


>>A good pizza crust will usually have large, irregular-shaped and sized holes and will have an airy and light character<<

That is exactly the type of crust I am trying to get, but mine is too light, and doesn't have a chew or bite when you eat it, So  I need to look for a good dough recipie which gives me the results you describe, 


Offline Snowman

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Re: Just a begginer any tips for me
« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2005, 04:50:38 PM »
You have to REALLY care or you'll go to sleep (not that it's poorly written, just that there's SO much info to digest).

http://www.correllconcepts.com/Encyclopizza/05_Dough-making/_05_dough-making.htm#_Toc533730364

That's just one chapter in the "encyclopizza".  So, depending on how serious you want to be, there's more info right there than most people ever know who RUN pizza joints.  One of the really good things was the percentages used and that over 5% sugar actually hurts the yeast.  

I owned a pizza joint (hole in the wall, NOTHING exciting at all) and worked in management for Little Caesar's (franchisee) and Papa Johns.  I've made more dough with Little Caesars than I care to remember.  PJ's doesn't make dough in the stores.  The most I ever knew was that sugar feeds yeast and salt retards the yeast -- so why you'd put BOTH in the same dough never really made much sense other than giving growth but not quickly.  I knew oil was added, but not really why, nor what happened when you adjusted the amount of oil (other than trial and error).  That single chapter should cut your trial and error down considerably.  

I want a gosh darned 20 qt Hobart mixer and a dough sheeter for my house.  My wife would freak out.  However, there's really only so much you can do with a Kitchenaid and a rolling pin.  

Best of luck in your quest for the perfect dough.  

EDIT (2/1/2013): For an alternative Correll link, see http://web.archive.org/web/20040606221443/http://correllconcepts.com/Encyclopizza/05_Dough-making/_05_dough-making.htm
« Last Edit: February 01, 2013, 02:44:27 PM by Pete-zza »


Offline TimEggers

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Re: Just a begginer any tips for me
« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2005, 09:59:39 PM »
One of the best tips I can give you is to experiment!† Use different temperatures, different recipes, and different dough forming techniques.† Also try cooking on screens, stones and different kinds of pans.† Try everything and the perfect pizza can be had!

Also if you are using an oven (or even in your grill) stick a thermometer directly where the pizza will be sitting so you will know what the actual temperature is when cooking.† That will eliminate a lot of headaches!† My oven is 32F hotter than the dial!
 
Also instead of cornmeal to lubricate your peel (or pan) use plain non-flavored breadcrumbs.† I love them because they function great for lubricating the peel and add no flavor to the pizza.† Of course none of that matters if you are using a screen.† I have yet to do that.† I also have yet to order some KAHGF (King Arthur's High Gluten Flour) as it is said to make a world of difference!

Good luck and enjoy yourself!† With time you'll be making some of the best pizza you have EVER eaten!

YUM!

Offline Rene

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Re: Just a begginer any tips for me
« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2005, 07:14:47 AM »
You have to REALLY care or you'll go to sleep (not that it's poorly written, just that there's SO much info to digest).

http://www.correllconcepts.com/Encyclopizza/05_Dough-making/_05_dough-making.htm#_Toc533730364

That's just one chapter in the "encyclopizza".  So, depending on how serious you want to be, there's more info right there than most people ever know who RUN pizza joints.  One of the really good things was the percentages used and that over 5% sugar actually hurts the yeast. 

I owned a pizza joint (hole in the wall, NOTHING exciting at all) and worked in management for Little Caesar's (franchisee) and Papa Johns.  I've made more dough with Little Caesars than I care to remember.  PJ's doesn't make dough in the stores.  The most I ever knew was that sugar feeds yeast and salt retards the yeast -- so why you'd put BOTH in the same dough never really made much sense other than giving growth but not quickly.  I knew oil was added, but not really why, nor what happened when you adjusted the amount of oil (other than trial and error).  That single chapter should cut your trial and error down considerably. 

I want a gosh darned 20 qt Hobart mixer and a dough sheeter for my house.  My wife would freak out.  However, there's really only so much you can do with a Kitchenaid and a rolling pin. 

Best of luck in your quest for the perfect dough. 



Hi Snowman thanks for that link, It is exactly what I needed, and can see that I will never get the med stiff dough that I desire , considering the water amount I am putting in... so now I have a formula to go by!!!   Going to be busy making doughs for the next while :-))