My New York pizza

[Lance]

I made this pizza with Power Flour 5 min mix, 1 hr on counter before I balled it and put in fridge for 20 hrs then on counter for 2 hrs, then cooked for 6 Min's on barbecue, the barbecue is a big steel keg.  Oven temp 650, stone temp 575. On grill for 6 Min's. I wish the crust was more airy. any ideas or suggestions or thoughts, would be great thanks.
Lance

Flour   243 g
water  64%
idy     .35%
Salt    4.9 g
oil      4%

[dmcavanagh]

I don't have any experience with Power flour, but have you ever tried a comparison with a dough with less oil?

[Lance]

the oil makes crust softer or not as chewy? right. But it can also cause the dough not to have as much oven spring?. I usually make pizza with like 2% oil, but since I got this power flour and I saw people on this forum making pizzas out of it and the crust was looking pretty pail. So at first I tried using 5% sugar and it looked good, but I didn't like the taste with all that sugar, so I tried it with the oil only. Maybe I should try 2% oil that's what I did when I was using KASL Flour just to see how it effects the crust.
thanks
Lance

[Lance]

Well I made some more dough but changed the recipe a little bit and it came out good the crust was light and airy and really soft. the crust could have been a little browner, but it tasted good. I think last time I was also a little to rough on the crust when I was stretching it so this time I tried to be gentle with it

Water 65%
IDY .30%
Salt 2%
Oil 5%

cold ferment for 20 hrs 2hrs on counter before cooking grill temp 700, stone temp 540 cooked for 4:45 seconds
of course when I open the barbecue it goes down 50 degrees so when the pizza was cooking it said 650. next time I will try it with less oil just to see how it comes out.
Lance

[dellavecchia]

Great job. I like how you reduced the salt to get more of an airy crumb - it worked. If you would like more browning, you might want to add 1% sugar along with your oil, or add some diastatic malt powder, as your flour is not malted. The longer you ferment a patent flour such as this, the less coloring you will get due to the sugars being fully consumed by the yeast.

But I think the color is great based on your photos. Very nice NY style.

John

[Jackie Tran]

Nice job Lance.  The pies look delicious.  My NY recipe is very sim to yours.

Chau

[Lance]

Great job. I like how you reduced the salt to get more of an airy crumb - it worked. If you would like more browning, you might want to add 1% sugar along with your oil, or add some diastatic malt powder, as your flour is not malted. The longer you ferment a patent flour such as this, the less coloring you will get due to the sugars being fully consumed by the yeast.

But I think the color is great based on your photos. Very nice NY style.

John

Well thank you, malt power will help with color too, will it change anything else like flavor or texture of crumb? What was so different to me on this pizza crust was it was so tender to bite and eat, not that it was really chewing before. I not sure if its the mixing I did, I mixed in a KA mixer on the slowest speed for only about 5 mins and since my kA mixer has the C hook for dough I have to stop it a lot and get the dough off the hook. Well thanks for all you advise,  If it wasn't for this forum and members who take there time to post what they have learned, I would still be making just your average pizza crust(bread like), this place has help me a lot
Lance

[dellavecchia]

Well thank you, malt power will help with color too, will it change anything else like flavor or texture of crumb? What was so different to me on this pizza crust was it was so tender to bite and eat, not that it was really chewing before. I not sure if its the mixing I did, I mixed in a KA mixer on the slowest speed for only about 5 mins and since my kA mixer has the C hook for dough I have to stop it a lot and get the dough off the hook. Well thanks for all you advise,  If it wasn't for this forum and members who take there time to post what they have learned, I would still be making just your average pizza crust(bread like), this place has help me a lot
Lance

You are very welcome. If this were my recipe and I wanted more browning but without changing the texture/softness, I would add in 1% sugar and not change anything else. Malt powder in small quantities will not inherently change anything other that adding color and enhancing fermentation, but it is an ingredient that you need to source. Sugar should just be in your cabinet.

Your mixing regimen is great - not too much development, and letting the cold ferment do it's work.

John

[Lance]

Nice job Lance.  The pies look delicious.  My NY recipe is very sim to yours.

Chau

Thanks, Chau and from the pics of your pizza's I've seen they look great. Now I just have to see if I can get better and keep making it consistently the same or better. I still have a lot to learn.
Lance

[Pete-zza]

Lance,

With the dough formulation that you are using, I don't think that you should be having a problem with sugar depletion. I used to talk about sugar depletion to the point where member pizzanapoletana (Marco) chided me and others who espoused the same idea (see, for example, the last sentence in Reply 11 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3057.msg25947/topicseen.html#msg25947). That prompted Marco to tell us that you would need about 5% commercial yeast before sugar depletion would become a problem. For example, see item 3) in Marco's post at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1055.msg9357.html#msg9357. In like vein, Tom Lehmann usually does not recommend using sugar in a dough such as you are making for under two or three days of cold fermentation. You will note in this regard that Tom's recipe for a NY style dough at http://pmq.com/tt2/recipe/view/id_151/title_New-York-Style-Pizza/ does not call for any added sugar. Beyond two or three days, his usual suggestion is using about 1-2% sugar. Maybe with your baking setup you can benefit from more sugar to get more crust coloration, but it might well be that your pizzas are not getting enough top heat with your particular setup. I have made pizzas where the dough cold fermented for 23 days without using any sugar in the dough and the crust baked up with plenty of color. There was no depletion of the natural sugars in the dough.

In your case, you might consider extending the cold fermentation for another day or two in order to give the enzymes more time to release more natural sugars from the flour. If that doesn't help with crust coloration, then that might point to your baking setup as the reason why you haven't gotten enough color.

Peter

EDIT (3/22/13): For the updated link to the PMQ recipe, see http://www.pmq.com/Recipe-Bank/index.php/name/New-York-Style-Pizza/record/57724/

[Lance]

Lance,

With the dough formulation that you are using, I don't think that you should be having a problem with sugar depletion. I used to talk about sugar depletion to the point where member pizzanapoletana (Marco) chided me and others who espoused the same idea (see, for example, the last sentence in Reply 11 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3057.msg25947/topicseen.html#msg25947). That prompted Marco to tell us that you would need about 5% commercial yeast before sugar depletion would become a problem. For example, see item 3) in Marco's post at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1055.msg9357.html#msg9357. In like vein, Tom Lehmann usually does not recommend using sugar in a dough such as you are making for under two or three days of cold fermentation. You will note in this regard that Tom's recipe for a NY style dough at http://pmq.com/tt2/recipe/view/id_151/title_New-York-Style-Pizza/ does not call for any added sugar. Beyond two or three days, his usual suggestion is using about 1-2% sugar. Maybe with your baking setup you can benefit from more sugar to get more crust coloration, but it might well be that your pizzas are not getting enough top heat with your particular setup. I have made pizzas where the dough cold fermented for 23 days without using any sugar in the dough and the crust baked up with plenty of color. There was no depletion of the natural sugars in the dough.

In your case, you might consider extending the cold fermentation for another day or two in order to give the enzymes more time to release more natural sugars from the flour. If that doesn't help with crust coloration, then that might point to your baking setup as the reason why you haven't gotten enough color.

Peter

I have thought about that too. When I first started cooking on the Barbecue the bottom would get to done before the top so I would try and get the temp to 600 degrees and no Higher, but since I have changed my setup a bit the bottom is cooking just fine and I could cook my pizza's longer but a little scared of drying them out. I usually heat the grill up for an hour. Do you think I shouldn't cook at the hotter temps, even if it's not burning? is 650 or 700 to hot for this type of dough? I am cooking another one today same dough and the last one just left in fridge for an additional day. Like you talked about in the post above, so I will see if it looks any different.

I kind of what to crank the heat up to 750 just to see how it cooks. I like the shorter cook times, but I could be wrong and I may get a lot better crust color at the lower temps. Also what about the stone temp, is there a time when its too hot. Mine is usually 550 to 650 depending on how many pizza's I'm making. here's is some pics of what I cook on, I use a big green egg diffuser, aluminum foil then the steel barbecue grill, then the pizza stone. Burning hardwood lump charcoal for the heat.
Lance

EDIT (3/22/13): For the updated link to the PMQ recipe, see http://www.pmq.com/Recipe-Bank/index.php/name/New-York-Style-Pizza/record/57724/

[Lance]

Well I cooked the same pizza I did last night except it was cold fermented for one more day than the other one. It tasted great, I think the dough was a little better with the extra time in the fridge. I let it sit on the counter for 2 hrs. and heated the barbecue up for 1 hr. I went up to 750 tonight and the stone was about 650. It would have cooked just fine, but when I launched the pizza on the stone it went all the way to edge of the stone that side that got a little burnt on the bottom just at the edge. It was a 4 min bake.

 The crust was about the same color as the pizza dough that was only cold fermented for one day. I also think that because I using a barbecue and all the heat come from below maybe I won't be able to get a darker crust without burning the pizza, unless I go to longer cook time at lower temp.
Lance

[c0mpl3x]

try adding 1% sugar to the mix

[The Dough Doctor]

I would suggest deleting the oil, taking the water up to 70% and increasing the IDY to 0.5%. That should go a long ways toward opening the crumb structure. BTW, that is not a bad looking pizza.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

[Lance]

I would suggest deleting the oil, taking the water up to 70% and increasing the IDY to 0.5%. That should go a long ways toward opening the crumb structure. BTW, that is not a bad looking pizza.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

thanks for the input, now i got one in the fridge that is 70% hydration and IDY is .5% and no oil with 2% salt. the only thing I wonder about is with that yeast level is. Should it be one day or two in the fridge, I guess I will have to watch it and see how much the dough expands. I also have one in the fridge that is 65% water, .3%yeast, 2% salt, 1%, sugar, 5% oil so I will see which one I like better.
Lance

[Pete-zza]

I usually heat the grill up for an hour. Do you think I shouldn't cook at the hotter temps, even if it's not burning? is 650 or 700 to hot for this type of dough?

Lance,

I'm sorry I missed your question. Since I only have a standard electric home oven, I am not the best one to answer your question in relation to a grill. However, from what I have read from other members who have tried to emulate an authentic NY style dough and pizza, a temperature of around 600 degrees F seems to be a good temperature. However, you still need enough top heat. In a standard home oven, that top temperature might come from using the broiler or, at a minimum, raising the pizza to an upper rack position to get more top heat.

I was going to suggest using more yeast but I see that Tom already addressed that possibility. Using a higher hydration should also help open up the crumb structure, especially with the higher temperatures your grill can provide, but you still need enough top heat. In my home oven, very high hydration doughs do not perform particularly well because I can't get the temperature high enough (without modification), so I lose many of the benefits of the higher hydration.

Peter

[Lance]

Lance,

I'm sorry I missed your question. Since I only have a standard electric home oven, I am not the best one to answer your question in relation to a grill. However, from what I have read from other members who have tried to emulate an authentic NY style dough and pizza, a temperature of around 600 degrees F seems to be a good temperature. However, you still need enough top heat. In a standard home oven, that top temperature might come from using the broiler or, at a minimum, raising the pizza to an upper rack position to get more top heat.

I was going to suggest using more yeast but I see that Tom already addressed that possibility. Using a higher hydration should also help open up the crumb structure, especially with the higher temperatures your grill can provide, but you still need enough top heat. In my home oven, very high hydration doughs do not perform particularly well because I can't get the temperature high enough (without modification), so I lose many of the
benefits of the higher hydration.

Thanks for the reply, I agree about 600 to 650 works good I just was trying to get a shorter cook time to like 4 to 5 mins. When I was using KASL the crust would get darker, but with power flour it seem a little less color, but I also was cooking them in at 550 to 600 range.

I have dough in the fridge now that is 70% hydration and .5% yeast and 2% salt and no oil, and my question is how long to let it cold ferment, let it double or more than double is that to long, or is it when it gets a yeasty smell or when there are lots of bubbles in the dough.
thanks
Lance

[Pete-zza]

I have dough in the fridge now that is 70% hydration and .5% yeast and 2% salt and no oil, and my question is how long to let it cold ferment, let it double or more than double is that to long, or is it when it gets a yeasty smell or when there are lots of bubbles in the dough.
thanks
Lance

Lance,

If your dough had a finished dough temperature of around 75-80 degrees when it went into the refrigerator, and the dough went directly into the refrigerator, and your refrigerator is around 40 degrees F, it should be ready to be used after one day, and maybe two. A doubling in the volume of the dough and clear signs of bubbling (usually visible at the bottom and/or sides of a clear or translucent container) would be good indicators that the dough can be used. If you don't see those signs, you may have to wait a bit longer. With only 0.50% IDY and cold fermentation, you aren't likely to get yeasty smells, although there may be some aromas due to fermentation byproducts.

I have made NY style doughs that exhibited little signs of fermentation, with little noticeable rising (although there may be some flattening or slumping in the container), yet produced good pizzas. Before using, you will want to let your dough temper (warm up) at room temperature for about an hour or two, depending on the ambient temperature this time of year where you live.

You might find it helpful sometime to read this thread that evolved over time to aid newbies with the NY style in a typical home setting with a typical home oven: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.msg19503.html#msg19503. The main action in that thread starts at Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.msg19563.html#msg19563.

Peter

[Lance]

Here is the dough I tried tonight made with Power Flower

Water 70%
IDY     .5%
Salt      2%
no sugar or oil

26 hrs cold ferment and 2 hrs on counter,grill temp was 725 and stone was about 600 cooked for about 4:20. This pizza was good, but I think I like it better with oil in the pizza dough, it was more chewy, but not too chewy, good flavor. This is the first time I made dough without oil, except when I used Caputo 00 flour. Next time I will try the higher hydration of 70% water with some oil to see if its good, all this pizza was good and the color was a little better than the one's before.

Lance

[Lance]

Well I made some more pizza tonight. but since I had some Caputo OO flour left that's what I used. I got this flour maybe 5 or 6 months ago. My questions is, why did it seem that the dough did not to want to stretch very easy, and from what I remember OO flour was always easy to stretch out? Is this because of the flour age, under mixed, or not good gluten development. I made this dough in a KA mixer. Mixed it for 5 mins. finish dough temp was 83. I let it sit on the counter for 2 hrs, house temp was about 70 degrees, then put in fridge for 19 hrs. Then took it out to set on counter for 3 hrs before stretching.

I started the grill, but I think I was over cautious this time, cause the last time I got the grill to hot and got the stone temp to 750. Well the bottom of my Power Flour pizza had started to burn before it got to the 2 min marker, so I had a well done bottom on the pizza and a under cooked top. Well this time I tryed to get the pizza on the grill before stone got to hot, the grill was at 725 but the stone was only like 450, so now I got the total opposite of last time. I grilled this caputo pizza for almost 6 mins. This is why I think my oven spring was not very good, or its because the dough didn't feel right when I was stretching it. If any one has any thoughts, I would love to hear them
dough recipe
I forgot to mention that the crust is pretty good, Its has a nice sweetness in the taste.

 60% water
.35% IDY
2.5% Salt

Lance