Author Topic: gas fired brick oven  (Read 30738 times)

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Offline jeffereynelson

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Re: gas fired brick oven
« Reply #25 on: March 01, 2012, 07:58:18 PM »
Hey I am excited to see all of the pictures and hope you get them up today.

I think your oven choice should be easy. Do you want to make true np or not? If yes you have to go wood. If that's your true goal and you go gas you will kick yourself for the next 20 years for not spending a couple months learning.

However I personally think a trend will develop that will move away from a true np with VPN requirements. I think people will start looking for more locally sourced pizzas. Locally grown tomatoes, cheese, basil, and possibly even flour. As you start to stretch the NP definition, a gas fired oven isn't a crazy idea. Biancos is considered to be the pizzas in the US by many and they incorporate some of this ideology.


Offline Gianni5

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Re: gas fired brick oven
« Reply #26 on: March 02, 2012, 10:57:26 PM »
I hope these pics work.  They're from my iphone and not exactly beautiful but they should give you an idea.  Also these are the first pizzas of the day and they did get better but these are the only pictures i took for some reason.  We forgot basil also for the Margherita.

Offline Gianni5

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Re: gas fired brick oven
« Reply #27 on: March 02, 2012, 11:09:49 PM »
Jefferey your last post really was spot on.  I do want to do a very NP style pizza but by using gas it's never going to be a true Napoletan pizza and the more I think about it, that's ok with me.  One of my favorite pizzerias right now is Pizzeria Delfina in San Francisco.  They use a gas oven and have a 3 to 4 minute cook time.  They tweek their dough a little, use high quality local ingredients, and the results are pretty damn good.  My main concern for a new oven is that it can put out a pizza that's very different from the New York style that I already serve otherwise why spend the money.  I was really happy with the Verace and i'm getting serious about making this happen now.   

Offline Tscarborough

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Re: gas fired brick oven
« Reply #28 on: March 02, 2012, 11:15:26 PM »
Pizza don't care what makes the heat.

Offline Gianni5

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Re: gas fired brick oven
« Reply #29 on: March 02, 2012, 11:39:33 PM »
That's what the sales rep said.

Offline Tscarborough

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Re: gas fired brick oven
« Reply #30 on: March 02, 2012, 11:50:15 PM »
It DOES care how much of that heat there is.  Were you able to shoot temps in the oven?

Offline Gianni5

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Re: gas fired brick oven
« Reply #31 on: March 03, 2012, 12:01:30 AM »
786 in the middle of the floor and 934 in the dome.  The oven was not turned all the way up though. At those temps we were cooking pizzas in 90 seconds or less for a good hour. You can see in the pics that there's discarded pizza all over the place in the background.

Offline Tscarborough

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Re: gas fired brick oven
« Reply #32 on: March 03, 2012, 12:08:52 AM »
And it will continue to crank them and no messing around with wood and ashes.  VPN to me is somewhat Luddite, in that it specifies components and process not finished product.

Offline Gianni5

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Re: gas fired brick oven
« Reply #33 on: March 03, 2012, 12:19:09 AM »
I had to look up luddite but you have a point.  Most people wrote off the idea of a gas fired brick oven and I have feeling they haven't cooked in one or at least not recently.  Supposedly they have improved a lot in the past 3 or 4 years.  Who knows.  I felt like we made some solid pizzas and that was the first day.


Offline widespreadpizza

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Re: gas fired brick oven
« Reply #34 on: March 03, 2012, 12:45:13 AM »
Gianni,  this may sound harsh,  but my worst nightmare would be waking up seeing that complete falsity of a brick oven,  and then having to run it for 8 to 10 hours,  and then keep doing it day after day.  The part about where the heat comes from is BS.  There is way more involved,  like moisture, conduction and radiation,  which involves dome height.  Mugani makes horrible wood ovens,  and they know it.  The ONLY reason I am being so loud about your decision,  is that I have been so before and the owner of the shop a 1/4 mile from me truly regrets not doing it correctly the first time.  He hates his Mugani.  BTW,  what type of gas costs are you looking at for that flamethrower?  What is the dome height of the oven you looked at btw?  Also,  beware after you get into making neapolitan pizza,  that it overtakes you and becomes an obsession.  At that point you will not have the right tool for the job.  Unfortunately,  like I told the guy down the street a year and a half ago,  there is only one tool for the job that is ul and nsf certified.  Its a Steffano Ferra oven.  They had great insight by earning and paying for these certifications,  and as a result are shipping more tha a couple a week from what I hear,  maybe more.  Just tryong to help.  Don't drink the kool aid.  No consultant in the world can fix a bad oven choice.  -Marc

Offline Tscarborough

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Re: gas fired brick oven
« Reply #35 on: March 03, 2012, 12:59:58 AM »
Well, I do not know anything about that oven, but if you think that the pizza cares where the heat comes from, I suggest you go look through Omid's thread.  It is a sticky in the Neo section.

scott123

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Re: gas fired brick oven
« Reply #36 on: March 03, 2012, 02:40:15 AM »
In my opinion the best way to test any oven would be to cook pizza in it.  If Neapolitan is the goal I would want the hearth brought to 900F.  I would then like to see the oven produce a pizza in 60 seconds or less with the top cooked without the pizza being lifted off the hearth..

Based upon these criteria, which, imo, are valid criteria for judging an oven that's supposed to be able to bake Neapolitan pizzas commercially... this oven failed.

John, regardless of how good the pizzas look, if you don't see 900 on the hearth on an infrared thermometer, this oven isn't worth buying. If this means a return trip to have them turn the oven all the way up, then by all means, give it a shot (and, please, get an upskirt next time), but, until then, I would discourage you from purchasing this oven for a commercial operation.

I agree with Marc- to an extent. For a commercial operation, if you move away from SF/Acunto, you're asking for trouble. I don't necessarily follow the Marco line and say that you have to go with a SF- I think, in theory, someone should be able to mimic the thermodynamics of these ovens in a pre-cast, but, so far, I have yet to see anyone do it. In fact, it kind of blows my mind that you have all these manufacturers vying for the American Neapolitan pizzeria market, and not one (that I've seen) comes close to the thermodynamic principles of an SF/Acunto oven. Everyone and their brother makes ovens with these huge ceilings and massive doors.  What the heck? Forno Bravo even makes an oven that's decorated like a Ferrara, so somebody in their organization has to be at least aware of these families. Wouldn't it make sense that if you were going to match a Ferrara cosmetically, someone would at least consider matching the Ferrara engineering as well? The exhaust heat capture might be tricky to do in a precast, but a lower ceiling should be completely possible, as should smaller doors.

Bear in mind, I'm only talking about commercial operations. Non SF/Acunto ovens work beautifully for home bakers.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2012, 04:25:34 PM by scott123 »

Offline widespreadpizza

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Re: gas fired brick oven
« Reply #37 on: March 03, 2012, 10:29:17 AM »
Scott,  Tom, the reason I did no tmention Acunto is that they are tough to get away with in a commercial enviorment,  meaning unless things have changed,  they are not listed.   Tom,  my comment about where the heat comes from,  I am sure the ceiling height is just way off on that oven,  and while I am sure it might make a great elite NY style pie,  Mugnains so far are not made in the right proportions fro neapolitan pizza.  I think we can all agree that if we have a 48" wide oven,  with a 48" ceiling the results have to do with where the radiant heat is coming from.  -Marc

Offline shuboyje

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Re: gas fired brick oven
« Reply #38 on: March 03, 2012, 02:34:55 PM »
I'm not going to get into the rest of this conversation because I could talk for days about this stuff but none of it helps you with your goal of a gas fired oven for Neapolitan Pizza.

I simply CANNOT believe that they knew you were coming for them to demo this oven for use in a Neapolitan Pizzeria, this highly touted "revolutionary" gas fired oven, and they only brought it up to 786F on the hearth.  Then they had the nerve to tell you it wasn't running full blast.  Either they lied to you, and that was all the oven can do, or they know so little about REAL neapolitan pizza that they thought this was an acceptable way to show how great their oven was.  Regardless of the situation that is not someone I would make such a major purchase from. 

It seems pretty clear to me that their market is the 700F americanized fake neapolitan pizzerias that litter this country.  I mean no offense, but the pizzas you picture are a dead ringer for that style.  The cheese is overly melted and has run into the tomato and the crust is an even brown.  I'd bet the other characteristics where also there that cannot be seen in pictures so easily.  This style can be tasty, and I'm sure is commercially successful with the undereducated american public, but I hate the dishonesty I generally associate with it.  If that is what you are after be honest about it.  That goes for pizzerias AND oven manufacturers.     
-Jeff

Offline Gianni5

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Re: gas fired brick oven
« Reply #39 on: March 03, 2012, 11:32:40 PM »


I posted this video hopefully it works.  This is from a restaurant who uses the verace oven in San Carlos Ca. called Locanda Positano.  I e-mailed the owner and he was kind enough to reply that he was extremely happy with his oven.  I also know that Mozza in L.A. uses a Valoriani oven and their chef, Nanncy Silverton was nominated for a James beard award this year (at a pizzeria no less).  It may not be to the correct standards of a real VPN oven (although it is certified) but i think it may get the job done for me.  I do appreciate everybody's feedback but i am realizing i just want to make a great thin crust pizza, with creative and local ingredients, because I think that it's lacking in my .  I'll stop calling it Napoletan style pizza and bow out of this debate.  Thanks everyone.

Offline jeffereynelson

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Re: gas fired brick oven
« Reply #40 on: March 07, 2012, 07:29:37 PM »
That video didn't seem like the guy had a great handle on pizza making yet, plus those bake times were a bit long, the first pizza in was just over 1:50 to cook.

Also I've been to mozza and it's not all that it's cracked up to be.

But as for your oven choice, do what YOU want. It's your establishment and your pizza.

Best of luck.

Offline Gianni5

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Re: gas fired brick oven
« Reply #41 on: March 07, 2012, 11:01:15 PM »
I actually just found out that there's a "Wood fired oven consultant" who's located just a few miles away.  It looks like he mainly deals with Stefano Ferrara ovens but I was told he will give me a non-baised opinion on what works best for my restaurant.  He even has a wherehouse nearby with a few ovens I can check out.  He's gone this week for the pizza convention but hopefully we can meet soon.  Maybe I could do a wood/gas combo I'm just not sure how that works.  If adding the gas option to a Stefano Ferrara oven made it much easier to deal with the firing of the oven and maintainig the heat then that might work out.  Whatever I do I'm not going to rush this at all.  I know it seemed like I was gonna buy the Verace oven based on my posts but I really just think it could be a viable option for me consedring its specifically designed to work with gas only.  I'm keeping my options open for now but still not ready to go for wood only because of my concerns about my staffs ability to handle it.


Offline widespreadpizza

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Re: gas fired brick oven
« Reply #42 on: March 07, 2012, 11:29:59 PM »
Gianni,  if this were facebook,  this is where a bunch of people hit the "like"  button!  Don't rush it,  and don't underestimate your staff.  The fire is the easy part,  handling the pizza on a peel,  and turning them is the real challenge.  -Marc

Offline Gianni5

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Re: gas fired brick oven
« Reply #43 on: April 07, 2012, 11:22:13 PM »
Quick update on my search for a gas fired brick oven.
I met with Michael Fairholme to discuss my project a couple of weeks ago.  I got all excited about the idea of doing a Stefano Ferrara gas oven.  It is not UL and NSF approved with gas yet but I was told it should happen soon.  The problem is, when Michael came out to my restaurant, he said that the spot I had in mind just won't work so without doing some pretty major renovations it's not looking good.  I do have one more question for everyone though.  I like what Pizzeria Delfina in SF does with their modded Marsal MB deck oven.  I could very easily just swap out one of my Blodgett decks for a Marsal with zero additional cost aside from the oven.  Does anyone have any idea how they did it.  I read on this site that they just switched out the thermostat for a higher temp one but I don't really know.  Realistically I should just wait until the time is right and maybe i'll have an opportunity to do a small place with a real wfo and do it right.  I just can't let this thing go.
Thanks for Humoring me.

Offline pizzaneer

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Re: gas fired brick oven
« Reply #44 on: April 08, 2012, 07:29:12 AM »
Gianni:
read through this link from Peter Reinhart's blog - see the letter from Raphael, talking about how he modded his Blodgett deck oven.  Sounds easy enough.   You won't get 800+ temps, more like 650-700, but thats better than 500.

http://www.fornobravo.com/pizzaquest/peters-blog/44-peters-blog/350-peters-blog-jan-24th-2012.html

regards
Brian
 
I'd rather eat one good meal a day than 3 squares of garbage.

Offline Gianni5

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Re: gas fired brick oven
« Reply #45 on: April 10, 2012, 01:37:04 PM »
Thanks Brian.
 I have two double deck blodgett's and the fourth oven is almost never on.  I think i'm gonna give it shot.  My plan is to replace the original deck with firebrick and then also line the top and back of the oven with firebrick as well.  I'm not sure how to go about finding a higher temp thermostat to fit the blodgett but i'm hoping I can figure it out.  I'll post pics of the process as I go.

Offline scott r

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Re: gas fired brick oven
« Reply #46 on: April 10, 2012, 02:26:36 PM »
just call your local oven repair guy.    Thats how I found out about the thermostat mod in the first place.   I think it took the guy 15 minutes to install.   good luck!   

Offline Gianni5

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Re: gas fired brick oven
« Reply #47 on: April 10, 2012, 04:00:23 PM »
Thanks
I'm calling him right now.  As far as putting firebrick in the oven should I remove the ultra rokite from the blodgett and replace it with a fire brick deck.   I am definitely planning on lining the rest of the oven with fire brick I'm just nut sure what to do about the deck.  thanks for any ideas or opinions.

Offline pizzaneer

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Re: gas fired brick oven
« Reply #48 on: April 10, 2012, 06:25:18 PM »
If you were shooting for +750, I would say replace it, but if you're going to be restricted to 650-750, then keep it and give it a try.  Firebrick is a lot less conductive than most deck materials.
I'd rather eat one good meal a day than 3 squares of garbage.

Offline Gianni5

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Re: gas fired brick oven
« Reply #49 on: April 10, 2012, 08:43:38 PM »
Makes sense. I'll try that first.  I just like the idea of a thicker deck. I'm a total novice in this area but the blodgett decks are 1.5" thick and I thought if I put in a 2" thick deck it might retain heat better.  I definitely have issues with the floor heat during rush hours. 


 

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