Author Topic: gas fired brick oven (Read 11655 times)

Gianni5 · « **Reply #100 on:** July 15, 2012, 09:19:37 PM »

We actually did think about countering thick crust with thick crust but we were thinking more along the lines of pizza al Taglio. I now nothing about Detroit style but the pics of via 313 pizzas look amazing. I think it may be harder to market out here in California though. I wish I could test that oven too but with two young kids the east coast probably isn't in the cards for me right now. I'll call marsal tomorrow and see if I can get a little more info.

BrickStoneOven · « **Reply #101 on:** July 15, 2012, 11:53:47 PM »

Here's a video of a gas SF. Theres no shot from start to finish but the pizzas coming out of it look pretty good.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcH1efI87l4" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcH1efI87l4</a>

Quote from: Gianni5 on July 15, 2012, 03:10:24 PM

Thanks for your replies
The reason this type of oven appeals to me is mostly because it would fit in my restaurant without major remodeling costs. I wanted to put in either a forno bravo with the drago burner, the valoriani verace, or a gas fired stefano Ferrara but they just don't fit. With this wave oven I could just remove my double stack 1060 blodgette and replace it with the marsal. The outer dimensions are almost identical. I do highly doubt it's gonna bang out 90 second pizzas but I could live with a 2 to 3 minute bake and just not do VPN napoletana pizzas.

I don't know if you know or not but SF makes different size ovens. The next size down(M105) from the one that most people get(M120) would probably fit in your restaurant. I looked up some specs for you.

SF M105
Interior Diameter = 41.34"
Exterior Diameter = 55.12
Mobile Unit Size = 66.93" x 55.12"
Weight = 4189

The oven you have now is 78 1/16" x 45 5/16". If you have a good oven tender that knows what he's doing then you can make 4 12" pies a time.

The next size up is the M120
ID = 47.24"
ED = 59.06"
MUS = 70.87" x 59.06"
Weight = 4850

Gianni5 · « **Reply #102 on:** July 16, 2012, 12:48:08 AM »

That oven would definitely be my first choice. The problem is the depth of the oven. In my county the hood needs to extend 12" past the oven door. I'm still about 10 to 12" short. I had Michael Fairholme of artisan pizza solutions to my restaurant and he's actually the one who told me the oven wouldn't fit. He suggested some other locations in my pizzeria that could work but that means new hood, new prep table, and just a bigger project than im looking for. He did say that he can do 60 to 90 second vpn pizzas all day with that sf gas fired oven though.

Gianni5 · « **Reply #103 on:** July 18, 2012, 09:30:06 PM »

So I spoke with the folks from Marsal the other day regarding the Marsal wave oven. The wave 60 with the mb 60 stacked underneath runs about 5 grand more than the MB 60. They now have a video of the oven in action cooking a cheese pizza in about 2 minutes and 45 seconds. Scott 123, I know you say this is pizza no mans land but what if i ran the oven just a bit cooler and did a 3 and a half to 4 minute bake. Its still actually quite a bit faster than the regular mb ovens are capable of (unless you do the thermostat mod). If i were starting a new restaurant I would just go with the regular MB (not if I were doing an NP place of course) but our restaurant has been serving the same style pizza since 1971, so to launch a new style of pizza I really think a distinctive and beautifull new oven would help. Part of me does kind of feel if it aint broke don't fix it and I should just focus on saving for a NP pizzeria some day but I think adapting to new trends is necessary, especially in the restaurant business. When my dad started the restaurant it was pizza only with maybe 5 or 6 topping options. after a few years he added salads and lasagna. At this point we have a full menu and have seen many competitors fall by the wayside. I'm kind of rambling at this point but i am pretty set on doing a thin crust NP/artisinal (I hate using this word but you know what I mean) thin crust style pizza in a new oven and I appreciate everyones help in trying to find the right oven.

pizzaneer · « **Reply #104 on:** July 18, 2012, 09:51:16 PM »

Wow, wish I were in your shoes. Choices, choices...

shuboyje · « **Reply #105 on:** July 18, 2012, 09:55:37 PM »

Leaving all other opinions out of it one thing jumps out at me about that bake. They place the pizza dead center in the oven and back from the mouth. The center area has the lowest ceiling due to the "wave" design. I would bet you are looking at a 1 pie oven if that 2:45 pie is your goal. Move out from center and your top heat will drop, and move toward the front and your temp all around will drop due to the giant open door. This really looks like a poorly conceived product from beginning to end. And it was certainly not running anywhere near 900F in that video.

Gianni5 · « **Reply #106 on:** July 18, 2012, 10:18:53 PM »

I think your right about that. It's hard to tell but that looks like the smaller oven to me. When I spoke with Marsal they did tell me that the right side of the oven where the flame is runs about 100 degrees hotter than the left side. He recommended using the hotter side for the NP style pies and the cooler side for the NY pies. Seems like it could be a tough oven to manage.

shuboyje · « **Reply #107 on:** July 18, 2012, 10:26:02 PM »

Quote from: Gianni5 on July 18, 2012, 10:18:53 PM

I think your right about that. It's hard to tell but that looks like the smaller oven to me. When I spoke with Marsal they did tell me that the right side of the oven where the flame is runs about 100 degrees hotter than the left side. He recommended using the hotter side for the NP style pies and the cooler side for the NY pies. Seems like it could be a tough oven to manage.

So again they did not show what their product can do for some reason? Instead of cooking a Neapolitan pie on the burner side, or a New York pie on the non burner side so you can see what it can do, they cook some weird 3 minute hybrid that can only be cooked in one small part of the oven? Either their marketing department has no clue, or this oven cannot produce and they have something to hide.

Gianni5 · « **Reply #108 on:** July 18, 2012, 10:55:21 PM »

I looked into Woodstone a little bit because they do have an oven that would work as far as space, I just don't know how I feel about these ovens. I have no firsthand experience with them but there are tons of pizzeria's using them in my area and I don't really care for any of them. I'm talking about gas fired woodstone ovens only. Most of the pizzeria's im talking about do more of a california thin crust style pizza with a soft crust and little to no charring or crispiness. Not my style at all and nothing like what i would be trying to produce. Maybe it's not the ovens fault though.

Gianni5 · « **Reply #109 on:** July 18, 2012, 10:59:21 PM »

I forgot to mention that I agree that the video was not very impressive and didn't really help me much. It just proves to me that it is pretty fast for a gas deck oven.

scott123 · « **Reply #110 on:** July 18, 2012, 11:18:02 PM »

Quote from: Gianni5 on July 18, 2012, 10:18:53 PM

He recommended using the hotter side for the NP style pies and the cooler side for the NY pies.

*Sigh* I really believe in the Marsal MBs, but making promises about Neapolitan bake times in an oven that most definitely cannot do Neapolitan pizza... I'm sorry, but that's skeevy. I saddens me deeply that so many of these highly respected oven manufacturers are pulling slimball crap like this. Between this and the big breasted model gracing most of their press, I really don't know what these guys are thinking. Sure, breasts sell plenty of beer, but do you really need breasts to sell pizza ovens? And it's not like Marsal is any scummier than the rest of the industry. Baker's Pride should be drawn and quartered for their countertop line.

Anyway, my disappointment in Marsal aside, John, when I wax poetic about 4 minute bakes, I get a lot of blank stares, even from people that are as obsessed about pizza as I am. I'm frequently confronted with the argument that truly great NY pizza can be produced in any time frame and, even if shorter bakes did make some sort of difference, 99.99% of the public wouldn't be able to tell the difference. My detractors are partly right. Put a 4 minute pie and an 8 minute pie in front of a John Q Pizzaeater and he probably couldn't tell the difference- either visually or by taste. But.. while he won't be able to voice any distinction at that particular moment, he will, over time, make a very clear distinction as to which pizza he prefers- with his wallet.

I live in an area with the most pizzerias per square mile in the entire world. And this isn't a Chicago place moving in a mile away, this is all NY style places and, in some places, you can be standing in front of one, turn your head, and see three more. Within this incredibly competitive atmosphere, most places do well, but the 4 minute places can't make pizza fast enough. My avatar, Pizza Town- they don't really have slow times, and, when I've been there, on average, a pizza is coming out of the oven every minute.

One could argue that one of the secrets to Pizza Town's success is their 50 year history and brand loyalty. Best Pizza, in Brooklyn, opened only a couple years ago, and they're selling at a similar rate. And while Best Pizza started out with some stellar pies, of late, they've been dropping the ball- and yet, they're always packed.

If you want my advice, forget this wave BS. Take the $5K you save and put it towards your next Neapolitan place and get the vanilla MB 60 and mod the thermostat. You will have no problem hitting a 4 minute pizza with a modded thermostat. It would nice, from a marketing perspective, if this were a brand new place, and your customers didn't have a preconceived notion about the pizza you sell, but, as I said before, very few people will notice the faster bake, but, gradually, you will see sales going up, and up, and up.

Chicago Bob · « **Reply #111 on:** July 19, 2012, 08:21:38 AM »

Quote from: scott123 on July 18, 2012, 11:18:02 PM

Put a 4 minute pie and an 8 minute pie in front of a John Q Pizzaeater and he probably couldn't tell the difference- either visually or by taste. But.. while he won't be able to voice any distinction at that particular moment, he will, over time, make a very clear distinction as to which pizza he prefers- with his wallet.

Scott, I am very interested in this statement. If a person doesn't "voice any distinction at that particular moment" what is the hook , or draw, that will get him to try again over his usual preferred joint? Especially if the price happens to be less.Thanks.

Pizza De Puta · « **Reply #112 on:** July 19, 2012, 10:38:00 AM »

Quote from: Chicago Bob on July 19, 2012, 08:21:38 AM

Scott, I am very interested in this statement. If a person doesn't "voice any distinction at that particular moment" what is the hook , or draw, that will get him to try again over his usual preferred joint? Especially if the price happens to be less.Thanks.

Entire libraries devoted to the art/science of marketing have been written to answer this question, Bob! What motivates a consumer to buy the first time is one subject. What brings them back for a second round can be completely different. Consumers can be categorized by what motivates them, i.e. low price, value, proximity, atmosphere, ease of purchase, familiarity, quality, prestige, high price, etc..
Every business caters to one or a few of these specific categories but no one firm can cater to the whims of the entire population.

Each category of consumer exhibits certain traits that tend to be constant throughout the group. Price shoppers are at once the most predicable consumers and also the least loyal, for instance, as they are whores for a bargain. This group will bring their business back IF your firm is still the low price leader. Notice Little Caesars' street side advertising always mentions a really low price in order to lure in their segment, they almost never mention quality or ingredients. Whatever group your business markets to will have traits/needs/demands that must be addressed in order to bring them back. If quality is your selling point you must remain at the top of the mountain, otherwise your business will plummet the minute you allow the product to decline, either intentionally or inadvertantly. Since most of the readers of this forum market to the quality-seeking consumer, the trick is manufacturing a high-quality product consistently, even when you're on vacation.

pizzaneer · « **Reply #113 on:** July 19, 2012, 11:12:55 AM »

Popularity, ambience, dining experience, professionalism & attractiveness of wait staff, are all considerations as well, besides price and food quality.

So, if catering an event
a: get a really good band or DJ to get the crowd pumped
b: have pretty waitresses / bartenders / strippers

c: have a nice layout with good seating, lighting, etc

Ofc this depends on your audience... you might get the alchoholic Jimmy Buffet types who sit at a tiki bar and don't really dance, or the Ernest Humperdinck fans that have trouble getting those scooters to waltz

Presentation & Showmanship FTW.

scott123 · « **Reply #114 on:** July 19, 2012, 11:34:00 AM »

Bob, beyond what RE and Pizzaneer stated, I would say that, much like if you hung a painting ever so slightly crooked, told someone to look at the room and asked them to describe it, they may not catch the crooked painting specifically, but, at the same time, they might say that something 'feels wrong' or is 'off.' The pizza obsessive will be able to taste the 4 minute slice, detect these minutiae and describe all the superior attributes, but the average person won't have that vocabulary, nor will they have the palette to recognize the distinction. They will, on on a subconscious level, though, register the distinction of the 4 minute pie, and if given a choice between two pizzerias right next to each other, will almost always choose the 4 minute place.

The subconscious mind has a great deal more precision than the conscious. One example of this is when pistol shooters shoot holes in coins that they've thrown in the air. If they consciously aim, they miss, but if they work on a more instinctual level and think less as they're shooting, they have far more success putting the bullet through the center of the coin.

At least, this subconscious aspect is my theory. For the pizzeria owner looking to put out a more profitable product, the why doesn't really matter. The evidence is rock solid that 4 minute pies far outsell their 6+ minute brethren.

Chicago Bob · « **Reply #115 on:** July 19, 2012, 01:13:18 PM »

Quote from: scott123 on July 19, 2012, 11:34:00 AM

Bob, beyond what RE and Pizzaneer stated, I would say that, much like if you hung a painting ever so slightly crooked, told someone to look at the room and asked them to describe it, they may not catch the crooked painting specifically, but, at the same time, they might say that something 'feels wrong' or is 'off.' The pizza obsessive will be able to taste the 4 minute slice, detect these minutiae and describe all the superior attributes, but the average person won't have that vocabulary, nor will they have the palette to recognize the distinction. They will, on on a subconscious level, though, register the distinction of the 4 minute pie, and if given a choice between two pizzerias right next to each other, will almost always choose the 4 minute place.

The subconscious mind has a great deal more precision than the conscious. One example of this is when pistol shooters shoot holes in coins that they've thrown in the air. If they consciously aim, they miss, but if they work on a more instinctual level and think less as they're shooting, they have far more success putting the bullet through the center of the coin.

At least, this subconscious aspect is my theory. For the pizzeria owner looking to put out a more profitable product, the why doesn't really matter. The evidence is rock solid that 4 minute pies far outsell their 6+ minute brethren.

Thank you Scott, my subconscious was telling me that was probably the answer....but ME jus had to ask.

You nailed that one straight an purdy man!

scott123 · « **Reply #116 on:** July 19, 2012, 01:24:27 PM »

Thanks, Bob!

Gianni5 · « **Reply #117 on:** July 19, 2012, 09:08:12 PM »

I just want to say real quick that the person who I spoke with at Marsal wasn't really trying to market the Wave oven as being meant for NP pizza. I told him I was looking to do that style of pizza and he said that the right side of the oven is hottest so it would be best suited for that style and that it has a sub 3 minute cook time. I don't want to throw them under a bus.

That being said I think I'm over the Wave oven already. As I was reading some of the posts on this thread it reminded me that our restaurant has always been about quality. This oven just feels a little gimmicky and thats not why I'm doing this. I really just want to do something different to help keep our business fresh and generate some new excitement, while still sticking to our high standard of quality.

I'm now leaning toward the standard MB 60 but I was wondering, first, if anyone has anything to say about woodstone, and second, does anyone have any ideas for an oven that could work for me that they haven't already seen mentioned on this thread (keeping in mind the space I have to work with is 80" wide by 48" deep max).

Thanks again everyone

shuboyje · « **Reply #118 on:** July 19, 2012, 09:30:13 PM »

What about one of these FGM professional series "lateral" ovens with a Drago burner? Looks likes they would easily fit your space.

http://www.breadstoneovens.com/pages/professional-ovens

pizzaneer · « **Reply #119 on:** July 19, 2012, 10:04:02 PM »

Quote from: shuboyje on July 19, 2012, 09:30:13 PM

What about one of these FGM professional series "lateral" ovens with a Drago burner? Looks likes they would easily fit your space.

http://www.breadstoneovens.com/pages/professional-ovens

+1, FGM is very reputable