Author Topic: gas fired brick oven  (Read 31675 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

scott123

  • Guest
Re: gas fired brick oven
« Reply #125 on: July 21, 2012, 06:22:06 PM »
John, the forum has kind of an unwritten rule that you never criticize someone else's pizza, but, since this is a business, I think I'd be doing you a disservice if I wasn't completely frank.

The margherita is, to me, the perfect representation of that no man's land pizza we talked about earlier.  It's possible for great things to be done with Caputo in 4 minutes, but 99.9% of the time, the pies end up looking just like that. Compared to a 90 second bake, the crust is going to be dry and tough. Your average customer may not be able to tell you why they don't like it,  but, as I said before, they'll vote with their wallet. You start selling that, you'll be out of business in a year.

The other pies look good, especially the pep sausage.  You're still in that dreaded 2-3 minute realm, but I think you mitigated the effects, to an extent, with the little bit of malt in the AP, the oil in the dough and the relatively long ferment. I have to be honest, these are pretty amazing looking pies for that time frame, but, put next to a 90 second caputo or a 4 minute bread flour, I'm not sure how well they'd compare.  They're close to perfect, but in a commercial environment, you want perfect.

I'm not going to keep harping on this.  This is the last time I'm going to say it.  When it comes to great Neapolitan pizza, there is no 'close enough.' Either you have the equipment to hit 60-90 seconds or you don't- and, if you don't, the next best thing is 4 minute NY.  Any time between 2 and 4 minutes will impact your bottom line.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2012, 07:00:35 PM by scott123 »


Offline Gianni5

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 125
Re: gas fired brick oven
« Reply #126 on: July 21, 2012, 07:04:13 PM »
The different cook temps I actually did on purpose.  I wanted to try to see for myself the difference between a 4 minute bake and a 2 and a half to three minute bake.  The oven is actually fairly easy to predict.  I would have to do a side by side comparison of a 90 second bake to these pizza's to really see what the major differences are because they were actually pretty tasty.  Scott The Margarita I purposely cooked when the oven was cooler so I could hit that 4 minute bake.  Maybe It has that look you don't like because there's not enough top heat to really char the top but I took it out at 4 minutes exactly.  Also I wish I had taken a crumb shot because it was light and airy.  It wasn't too tough imo until it cooled significantly.  I will admit that cold it was pretty tough but when re-heated it was not bad. 

Scott I appreciate the criticism.  As I said I'm going for the best possible product with the tools that will be available to me.  I'm trying to play around with the 4 minute cook time.  At this point the Marsal looks like my best option and for that I have a really good model in Delfina in San Francisco.  I really do enjoy their pizza and they're one of the busiest pizzerias in Sf.
I'm not trying to rip them off but that is the direction I'm going.  I'm posting this video which states that they use all Caputo flour and their cook time is 4 to 4 and a half minuts at around 750.  I feel like they must be using oil to get better browning if it's 100% Caputo but not sure.


Offline Gianni5

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 125
Re: gas fired brick oven
« Reply #127 on: July 21, 2012, 07:06:02 PM »
Also Thanks pizzaneer for the compliment.

Offline shuboyje

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1242
  • Location: Detroit
Re: gas fired brick oven
« Reply #128 on: July 22, 2012, 12:40:21 AM »
I think your pie cooked at 825 looks great.  In all honesty pies in that 2:30 range are sold all over this country as Neapolitan, and uneducated consumers THINK they are Neapolitan.  If done right they can be very tasty, and in some places seem to be much more marketable the the real deal soft wet 60 second pies.  I personally call them Americanized Neapolitan.  If I was you I would call them artisan pizzas and do a very soft low key launch and see how they do with your clientele.  You may find you have a real winner commercially speaking with what you already have.
-Jeff

Offline Chicago Bob

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12515
  • Location: Durham,NC
  • Easy peazzy
Re: gas fired brick oven
« Reply #129 on: July 22, 2012, 07:50:20 AM »
+1
That Broccolini would fly off the shelves around here....
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline Gianni5

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 125
Re: gas fired brick oven
« Reply #130 on: April 10, 2013, 12:24:55 AM »
So I'm bringing this thread back because I finally decided to just pull the trigger and purchase the Marsal wave oven. I know some of you think it's (vs the mb) unnecessary but I like the look and I like the idea of getting the high temps without having to modify the oven.  Stil haven't decided whether I'm going with a more Napoletanish 2-4 minute bake (I know scott 123 feelings on this are well documented), or a 4-5 minute neo ny style.  It'll just be trial and error and we'll see what people prefer.
     I do have one question though. I believe the deck is fibrament and I've read some negative things on here about it that have me a little concerned.  Anyone have any thoughts on whether or not fibrament is the way to go for this oven. Thanks

Offline shuboyje

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1242
  • Location: Detroit
Re: gas fired brick oven
« Reply #131 on: April 10, 2013, 02:57:12 PM »
The issue with fibranent in a home oven is its low thermal conductivity.  In a commercial bottom heat only oven that low conductivity is a plus as you run the oven full bore trying to push heat to the top it will help you keep a balanced bake. 
-Jeff

Offline Gianni5

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 125
Re: gas fired brick oven
« Reply #132 on: April 10, 2013, 05:38:29 PM »
Great thanks for the info. I'm going to place the order very soon and I'll be posting my experiences with the oven as soon as it arrives.

Offline JConk007

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 3788
  • Location: New Jersey
  • Lovin my Oven!
    • Flirting with Fire
Re: gas fired brick oven
« Reply #133 on: April 10, 2013, 10:22:43 PM »
Thats a great Oven drooling over one here in Jersey on sale ! What woiuld mama say If I came rolling in with that ! oh I know  but but but GET OUT ! :-D
I Love to Flirt with Fire! www.flirtingwithfirepizza.com


Offline Gianni5

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 125
Re: gas fired brick oven
« Reply #134 on: July 09, 2013, 04:35:51 PM »
My Marsal Wave oven finally got here today.  I'll be making pizza's tomorrow and I'll post pics.

Offline Gianni5

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 125
Re: gas fired brick oven
« Reply #135 on: July 20, 2013, 02:44:56 PM »
I'm having trouble posting pics.  this is just a test

Offline Gianni5

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 125
Re: gas fired brick oven
« Reply #136 on: July 20, 2013, 03:12:32 PM »
It's been about 10 days since the new oven came in and i'm finally starting to make some progress.  The bottom of the wave oven is the MB60 which we are doing our NY style pizza in and it's working great so far.  It's definitely a more dry bake which makes the pizzas coming out of the marsal a bit crispier than the Blodgett.  The wave oven on top has been a bit more difficult to work with because you can't really get a consistent temperature with the side flame so I'm constantly adjusting the thermostat.  It is however very capable of producing high heat.  I'm getting close with my dough now I just need it to be a bit more tender. 
Dough Recipe:
100% Caputo 00
56% water
2.5% oil
2.75% salt
24 hours bulk, 24 hours balled (all in walk in) 2 hours room temp
700 degree oven for 4 minutes

scott123

  • Guest
Re: gas fired brick oven
« Reply #137 on: July 20, 2013, 03:34:25 PM »
I'm getting close with my dough now I just need it to be a bit more tender.

Caputo with 4 minute bakes having tenderness issues? I would never have guessed  :-D

John, you paid quite a lot of extra money for the high temp upper oven, why not make what it's advertised to make- Neapolitan pizza? I would think that selling NY style next to authentic Neapolitan pizza would be a huge selling point- if, of course, the Wave's temps are as high as they advertise.

Offline Gianni5

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 125
Re: gas fired brick oven
« Reply #138 on: July 20, 2013, 04:07:38 PM »
I would if I could Scott.  The 900 degree claim is a little deceiving because the deck really won't get over 750.  They put the thermostat halfway between the deck and the top of the oven and right next to the side burner.  The oven is hotter than any deck oven I've seen but 2:30 minutes is about as fast a bake time as your going to get.  Also we have 1 pizza line and both types of pizza need to be made side by side.  Logistically it is more doable to have a pizza with a 4 minute cook time next to a pizza with a seven minute cook time.  I think what Pizzeria Delfina in SF does with 00 flour, Marsal ovens, and a 4 minute bake is more what I am shooting for.  If anyone has any Ideas for getting a little more tender crust I would love to hear it.  Cutting the caputo with another flour? More oil? less mix time? (I've been mixing for about 8 minutes on low in a hobart mixer) Higher hydration?     

scott123

  • Guest
Re: gas fired brick oven
« Reply #139 on: July 20, 2013, 04:21:07 PM »
I would if I could Scott.  The 900 degree claim is a little deceiving because the deck really won't get over 750.  They put the thermostat halfway between the deck and the top of the oven and right next to the side burner.  The oven is hotter than any deck oven I've seen but 2:30 minutes is about as fast a bake time as your going to get.

That's disappointing.

What's your NY recipe/flour?

If you take that and bake it in 4 minutes rather than 7, you'll get everything you're seeing here, but with the tenderness you're looking for. You might want to take it to 3.5 to create a bit more delineation/Neo-ishness, but the malted flour will outperform the Caputo. I guarantee you that it will blow Delfina out of the water.

On the plus side, you'll be selling two different pizzas, but only having to make one dough.

Offline jeffereynelson

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1278
  • Location: Los Angeles
Re: gas fired brick oven
« Reply #140 on: July 20, 2013, 04:30:56 PM »
FWIW, I like some of the pizza coming out of the scott described "no mans land."

Offline Gianni5

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 125
Re: gas fired brick oven
« Reply #141 on: July 20, 2013, 04:32:27 PM »
We use General Mills superlative flour.  I have thrown some of our NY dough in the hotter oven but between the malted flour, and oil in the dough, the bottoms cook really fast.  We would have to screen every pizza after a minute or so.  I will play with it though. 


scott123

  • Guest
Re: gas fired brick oven
« Reply #142 on: July 20, 2013, 04:43:57 PM »
John, run the oven a bit lower- maybe 50 deg. lower than what you're running now, and, when the bottom is done, dome the top. The dome adds a little more labor, but it will also help to showcase the beautiful interior of the Wave.

Or try dropping the oil from the NY recipe for your Neo-NY or maybe try a 50/50 superlative/00 blend.

Offline Gianni5

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 125
Re: gas fired brick oven
« Reply #143 on: July 20, 2013, 05:18:23 PM »
Thanks for the advice.
My next attempt will be with the 50/50 blend.  I am planning on doing plenty of testing before I start selling these pizzas to the public.  Nothing is set in stone at this point.
Actually the only thing I'm sure of so far is the tomatoes.  Since I already don't have a wood burning oven I wanted to go with DOP San Marzanos to try to keep some things more on the Neo side.  I tested: Strianese, Rega Rega, Italbrand, and Ciao.  For me Ciao was by far the best.  We already use the Grande fior di latte ovoline for our Caprese salad and I think its one of the better fresh mozzarella's out there.

Offline Gianni5

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 125
Re: gas fired brick oven
« Reply #144 on: August 07, 2013, 04:26:26 PM »
So here are some of pizzas I made with the 50/50 superlative 00 blend.  Blending the flour helped tremendously with tenderness and moisture.  I'm not even going to make another batch of 100% caputo for this oven.  The pics I'm posting are 4 minute bake time.  Later in the day I cranked the oven up a little and I was actually happier with the pizzas that cooked in 3 minutes.  I feel like things are going in the right direction but these pizzas are definitely not blowing me away yet.  I'm starting to wonder what I got myself into.